Ethernet switches - PartA: Switches List, info & Experience

[Guest rmpfyf]

15 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

The sad truth is, most audio listeners completely overlook room acoustics and room correction (DSP or otherwise). 

Probably two of the most important aspects to address, for good audio.  

A network switch doesn't really rank IMO. 

 

I'd wager that depends a good deal on what's happening in the room. 

 

A network swtich can affect jitter. If the room isn't sorted, or if the equipment's not got something creating a fundamental limit to performance (which can be a dedicated system to e.g. optimise jitter performance, in which case twiddling upstream isn't going to do a great deal) - differences can be quite stark. 

 

Get everything you suggest sorted (room correction etc) and dealing with jitter is almost purely additive. 

[dbastin]

19 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

if spending money on "audiophile switches" makes you happy, or you feel there is a difference that's awesome.

For me, spending money is the means to help satisfy the end ... more enjoyment.  I'd rather that come at lower cost.

 

19 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

For me, this goes in the same basket as cable burn in.

In my experience, some cables (and fuses) do take time to perform their best, burn in, settling in, whatever.  But lets not go there in this thread.

 

Just for the record (not to boast):

 

1. Room acoustics - some, Synergistic Black Box and HFTs (more coming soon)

2. Speakers + TAD ME1 (probably still 'burning in') and stereo subs

3. Amps - Devialet Pro 220

4. Dac/Source - Devialet (above) and Antipodes EX

5. Music source/content - SSD and TIDAL (incl MQA of higher res than 44kHz 16 bit)

 

I also have a considerable power delivery system. and grounding.

 

I would like to explore Room Acoustics more.  It will be my next escapade.  I would appreciate being directed to a good source of knowledge about that subject - room analysis software, acoustic hardware, convolution files, Roon implementation.

 

Incidentally, my recent experiment in room acoustics was subwoofer placement.   The improvements I've made to ethernet have enhanced low end reproduction so much, that seems a logical place to start.

 

The subs are crossed over at 135Hz and were immediately under the ME1s.  I lifted the subs 60cm off the floor away from the nodes of the floor to ceiling standing waves.  Also slight 5-10cm tweaks to distance from rear and side walls based on same methodology.  Consequently slight tweak to main speaker locations.  The improvement is equivalent to $1000s on gear.  Most obviously in the midrange, not low end.  This translates to soundstage depth, height and sense of scale, as well as a range of other benefits.  Decoupling the low frequency drivers location from the main speakers has its advantages - not aesthetic though.  I may even start a thread about this.

Edited January 28, 2021 by dbastin

[BugPowderDust]

4 hours ago, dbastin said:

 

I would like to explore Room Acoustics more.  It will be my next escapade.  I would appreciate being directed to a good source of knowledge about that subject - room analysis software, acoustic hardware, convolution files, Roon implementation.

I’ve gone the whole 9 yards down this front recently with some assistance from Mitch at Accurate Sound in Canada and can’t fault the results. 
 

https://accuratesound.ca

 

highly recommended until you get to grips with running something like Audiolense yourself.

[Assisi]

On 27/01/2021 at 4:10 PM, Stereophilus said:

Coincidentally, @Assisi brought over his collection of switches and Ethernet cables today.  We spent a few hours listening to separate Ethernet configurations back to back.  
 

We had my ER (using Gieseler Gold Tune LPS), a Bonn N8 (using a LPS @Assisi brought along) and a Paul Pang Quad switch.  My Antipodes CX server (Roon core) also acts as a switch.

 

We tried quite a few combinations, and also utilised some of @Assisi’s custom Ethernet cables (acoustic revive? with telegartner plugs).  To my ears these did offer a substantive improvement over all other Ethernet cables I have tried, noting that I have not previously heard differences in Ethernet cables, but have tried them out just to see.

 

Of the switches, my impression was that differences were very small.  Having the CX directly feed the streamer, rather than via a switch was one clear preference.  The ER sound was comparatively lighter, highlighting detail and air.  The Bonn N8 and the PP Quad were more dense in the midrange, the PP being more obvious than the N8.  Overall I came out of the comparison feeling that I would not consider the differences in the switches to be hugely significant, certainly not enough to encourage me to invest more money than I already have.

 

The purpose of yesterday was to compare some Ethernet audio switches.  As well it was an opportunity for me to have a second listen to John’s system with his new and wonderful Rockport speakers.  My comments of the system and speakers will be in another thread.  I will advise when I post.  Also John wanted to compare some Ethernet cables that I have with the ones that he had been using.  Up until yesterday he had not perceived any difference with Ethernet cables including my Audioquest Diamonds.  He noted in his post that the cables

   “did offer a substantive improvement over all other Ethernet cables I have tried, noting that I have not previously heard differences in Ethernet cables, but have tried them out just to see”

With the Switches I concur with John’s impressions of the three individual boxes.  Each has its own flavour.  Combining switches to some extent did provide a possible blend of the attributes of each.  To me each box seemed to vertically layer the sound stage slightly different and therefore the emphasis on the outcomes  Overall, each of us was happy with what we had and there was no intention to change.  There would have been other permutations of switches.   Time did not permit to do more. 

On 27/01/2021 at 7:07 PM, Stereophilus said:

We did also try the Weiss LPS compared to Gieseler Gold Tune LPS.  I had the JS-2 available, but we did not try it.  I do very slightly prefer the Gieseler over the JS-2 myself, but I could not confidently say I noticed a difference in sound between the Gieseler and the Weiss LPS.  @Assisi may have a different take on this than I did.

 

The Power supplies are a benefit.  The Weiss may have had an edge over the Giesler but if so minor.

 

It must be noted this was not a comparison with non-audio switches.  Before I started with audio switches I had and still do have a Netgear Pro safe N8.  It works fine but it is not audio sound quality wise.  The result is ordinary.

The switch that I would like to try is the.

https://telegaertner.co.jp/product/audio_products/m12_switch_ie_gold.html

I am advised by my system curator that it is probably too expensive for the benefit outcome.  One day though who knows.

John

Edited January 28, 2021 by Assisi

[Snoopy8]

36 minutes ago, Assisi said:

The switch that I would like to try is the.

https://telegaertner.co.jp/product/audio_products/m12_switch_ie_gold.html

I am advised by my system curator that it is probably too expensive for the benefit outcome.  One day though who knows.

I knew it!  It only a matter of time before the next switch is coming!     

 

Anyone here tried the Telegaertner M12?

[Assisi]

9 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I knew it!  It only a matter of time before the next switch is coming!     

 

Anyone here tried the Telegaertner M12?

I have been strongly discouraged.  I think somebody in Sydney tried three together.

 

John

 

[Assisi]

My comments on the second visit to listen to @Stereophilus's yesterday. 

 

John

 

[Uglu]

Anybody knows a dealer in Sydney or Australia that normally stocks the Nuprime Omnia SW8?

[evil c]

Had a bunch of guys over on Friday including @frednork @Assisi @betty boop @Quark@Anatoly Beaver-Hausen for a listening session. 

John brought over his Bonn N8 switch plus his Paul Pang Quad switch.

 

We initially heard a few test tracks from Crosby Stills Nash 192khz "Long time gone" and Allan Taylor "Los Companeros" through the stock router.

Then via the Bonn  followed by the Paul Pang. 

There was a slight improvement I thought with the Bonn, however the PP added much more.

I ,and a few others commented how natural live sounding it was, very enjoyable to listen to!

 

It made enough difference to motivate me, to investigate further audiophile grade switches in my system.

The PP Quad might be a tad above my current budget, but there are cheaper alternatives.

 

 

 

[Assisi]

21 hours ago, evil c said:

investigate further audiophile grade switches in my system

 

Hi Clive,

As well as the switches it must be remembered that I would consider the Ethernet cables also provided a benefit.

 

There are many different switches out there and more new ones coming all the time at different price points.

 

I enjoyed the hospitality and the camaraderie on the afternoon. Thanks

 

John

[evil c]

1 hour ago, Assisi said:

 

Hi Clive,

As well as the switches it must be remembered that I would consider the Ethernet cables also provided a benefit.

 

There are many different switches out there and more new ones coming all the time at different price points.

 

I enjoyed the hospitality and the camaraderie on the afternoon. Thanks

 

John

Indeed they very well probably do make an important contribution!

I didn't want to comment too much in detail,  and was hoping those that attended might give their impressions - for the sake of some impartiality.

Appreciate your going to the trouble of bringing them for a listen.

[a.dent]

For an objective assessment of ethernet switches have a look at this.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audiophile-network-switches-make-a-difference-video.20316/

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, a.dent said:

For an objective assessment of ethernet switches have a look at this.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audiophile-network-switches-make-a-difference-video.20316/

 

Are you being serious or flippant with the use of the word ‘Objective”?

John

[muon*]

Can't be serous as it has a link to ASR

[a.dent]

1 hour ago, Assisi said:

 

Are you being serious or flippant with the use of the word ‘Objective”?

 

John

 

I was using it with this meaning as defined in the online Cambridge Dictionary

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by a.dent

[frednork]

2 hours ago, a.dent said:

For an objective assessment of ethernet switches have a look at this.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audiophile-network-switches-make-a-difference-video.20316/

 

What was the point of this video as it seems to replicate his prior written reviews. (except perhaps an attempt at monetization) I couldnt/wouldnt listen to the whole thing at 36 minutes For anyone that did was there any new info? The last 10 seconds suggests no but I live in hope

 

Hi methods and understanding of the topic he discusses has been called into question by others with far more understanding than I.  If your methods and understanding are not appropriate for the topic does it still make it objective?

[BugPowderDust]

I've got 25 years experience in networking and while he flubs a few bits and pieces, most of the logic is sound in the video.

 

What most people don't understand is that the TCP/IP audio stream is asynchronous to the underlying ethernet transport.  Both layers have multiple checks and balances in place which means the only thing that matters when it hits the DAC is the bitstream it renders.  

 

TCP/IP and the streaming application (eg Roon) has ensured that the digital stream that hits the DAC is bit perfect so the only thing that comes out of the DAC is the actual data that was encapsulated by the streaming provider (eg Tidal, Roon or other).  If there were issues with the data stream, you get TCP or application level retransmits to fix this, but they don't exhibit as jitter or any audio sensation (pick your poison) aside from drop outs if they happen for long enough.  

 

If you're streaming on a local LAN segment from a local source, the buffer in your streamer / DAC should be long enough to deal with most horrible scenarios you could imagine / manufacture. 

 

Question: If you're streaming from a local NAS say using Roon, do you still see the benefits of an Ether Regen (or similar)?  

 

@frednork you've got a quality ADC now. Have you thought of recording the output of your DAC with and without switch and analysing the differences?  That's all Amir is doing in this video.

[a.dent]

45 minutes ago, frednork said:

 

What was the point of this video as it seems to replicate his prior written reviews. (except perhaps an attempt at monetization) I couldnt/wouldnt listen to the whole thing at 36 minutes For anyone that did was there any new info? The last 10 seconds suggests no but I live in hope

 

Hi methods and understanding of the topic he discusses has been called into question by others with far more understanding than I.  If your methods and understanding are not appropriate for the topic does it still make it objective?

 

Amir Majidimehr (ASR) is probably as qualified as anyone to understand the topic and know what measurements are appropriate to determine which products will make an audible difference. To quote from Wikipedia, "He was Vice President of Microsoft's Digital Media Division until retiring in 2008. he is an electrical engineer by degree and hobby, with professional experience including software and signal processing."

 

So, yes, I think his posts are on the whole objective.

 

There are no doubt many SNA members with similar or better qualifications in the area. Some have put their opinions forward.

 

Ultimately everyone is free to express their opinions and spend their hard-earned as they see fit. If you listen to the video you may decide you'd rather put your money towards room treatments, DSP or better speakers instead of an "audiophile" ethernet switch.

[frednork]

@BugPowderDust, I think this has been done to death as per below and many other versions

 

 

19 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

Question: If you're streaming from a local NAS say using Roon, do you still see the benefits of an Ether Regen (or similar)?  

 

 

yes as its still connected to and uses ethernet to run Roon.  

24 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

@frednork you've got a quality ADC now. Have you thought of recording the output of your DAC with and without switch and analysing the differences?  That's all Amir is doing in this video.

I think getting a definitive result is the same kettle and a different breed of fish to the below and far beyond my testing capabilities.

 

 

 

 

[frednork]

2 minutes ago, a.dent said:

Ultimately everyone is free to express their opinions and spend their hard-earned as they see fit. If you listen to the video you may decide you'd rather put your money towards room treatments, DSP or better speakers instead of an "audiophile" ethernet switch.

Would suggest time would be spent more usefully borrowing an etherregen and seeing if there is a difference worth spending that money on. Thats what I did. Anyone who does this, whatever their decision is, has made the exact right decision.

[Stereophilus]

Guys, this discussion is valuable, but off topic.  This thread is for user experiences in audio switches.  The link posted by @a.dent belongs in the thread created by @dbastin for those who feel strongly that audio switches are a waste of time and/or money.... here:

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

59 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Guys, this discussion is valuable, but off topic.  This thread is for user experiences in audio switches.  The link posted by @a.dent belongs in the thread created by @dbastin for those who feel strongly that audio switches are a waste of time and/or money.... here:

 

 

This thread is in the "great Audio Debate" section, so I would think we could discuss the subject

[a.dent]

1 hour ago, frednork said:

@BugPowderDust, I think this has been done to death as per below and many other versions

 

 

 

 

yes as its still connected to and uses ethernet to run Roon.  

I think getting a definitive result is the same kettle and a different breed of fish to the below and far beyond my testing capabilities.

 

 

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Guys, this discussion is valuable, but off topic.  This thread is for user experiences in audio switches.  The link posted by @a.dent belongs in the thread created by @dbastin for those who feel strongly that audio switches are a waste of time and/or money.... here:

 

 

Whoops!

 

I didn't realise this had been done before.

 

I'll have a look at the other thread.

 

 

[Stereophilus]

9 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

This thread is in the "great Audio Debate" section, so I would think we could discuss the subject

Yeah, I’m not against debate, and I’m not here to police the forum either; we have mods for that. But the OP stated the intent is “not to clutter this [thread] up with technical debates.  If you wish to advise or read about why these shouldn't work, then I created Part B for that purpose”.  Proceed as you wish.  I’m just trying to respect the wishes of the OP.

[a.dent]

1 hour ago, frednork said:

Would suggest time would be spent more usefully borrowing an etherregen and seeing if there is a difference worth spending that money on. Thats what I did. Anyone who does this, whatever their decision is, has made the exact right decision.

I haven't tried the Etherregen but I do have a SOtM switch that came with my sMS-200 Ultra package. 

 

To my ears it makes absolutely no difference.