Subjective experiences with all things Ethernet

[Snoopy8]

There is no thread dedicated solely to subjective experience with Ethernet products. Products can be a switch, router, Ethernet cable, filter, SFP (Small Form-factor Pluggable), optical cable, external clock, clock cable, enterprise grade switch, modem, power supply for above devices etc.

 

Please, if you do not agree with subjective experience and want to bring up objective views, measurements, technical details, post in other existing Ethernet threads. Otherwise, start your own thread.

 

My own journey in pictures.

 

A discussion of my journey here.  Ultimately, I was driven by the desire to have a simple setup with the Renolabs switch, with its own OCXO clock and linear power supply. However, my experience is limited.  @dbastin and @Assisi have explored Ethernet much more and I hope they will update us on their latest setup.

 

To make it easier to find, here are some user experiences,  posted in November and December.  @Bilbo post, @mageak post, @Gryffles post, @Stereophilus post, @Kirby66 post, @Assisi post, @PeterB7858 post, @Duke40 post.

 

Looking forward to hear your subjective experience with all things Ethernet...

Edited December 9, 2023 by Snoopy8
Typo

[Hydrology]

I wish you every success with the thread @Snoopy8!

 

I use a Waversa Smarthub3.0 and in my experience it is sublime. Does the system sound great without it - yes, but this adds another layer, or rather, removes a layer and gets me closer to the emotional aspect of the music.

 

My digital playback (in addition to the hub/switch above) is comprised of:-

 

T+A DAC200 DAC

T+A M200 Monoblocs x 2

Innuos ZEN MK3

Wharfedale Elysian 4

 

Highly resolving, fast, agile with great transparency is how I would described the sonic character of my system. The Waversa adds to this.

[Analogueage]

I hope this thread can stay focussed on the topic as defined by the OP. I am looking forward to like minded people discussing their experiences and with what equipment.

Rob

[davewantsmoore]

Coincidentally, I am the same as @Snoopy8... in that I've tried etherregen and renolabs sw1 earlier this year.

 

I tried all the different routers/switches with and without the regen and with and without their usual power supplies (used a teradak linear supply instead).

 

It's also interesting that the DACs in my speakers use a similar sort of scheme to the Kii that snoopy has.

 

It's on:

 

Computer with custom Linux, Ethernet cable is Belden 7989P

I2S to battery/capacitor supply isolator and reclocker (crystal cvhd950)

AES SPDIF to speakers + subs (SPDIF cable is Belden 1694A)

 

Hypex amplifiers / DACs / crossovers direct wired to drivers)

Horn from 300Hz up (1m horn coaxially driven)

15" from 60Hz up (Acoustic Elegance TD15M)

12" subwoofers  (Peerless 830500)

 

 

 

Routers

 

Renolabs SW1

Ubiquity Edge Router

Cisco 3650X

Cisco (?) 8 port 1gbps switch

Wired direct to NBN FTTP NTD

USB to Ethernet converter connected to smartphone (4G)

Billion ADSL modem router from ~2000 (the most horrid slow noisy unreliable garbage that any ISP ever gave away for free)

 

 

 

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

I tried all the different routers/switches with and without the regen and with and without their usual power supplies (used a teradak linear supply instead).

 

Dave, I tried a moment ago to PM you about the above but I received this notification: "davewantsmoore cannot receive messages.".  So I will have to ask you my question publicly:-

 

What were your subjective impressions as to the sound quality, with the various changes you made?

[Gryffles]

My foray into upgrading my ethernet system started recently as I ditched my analog front end to concentrate on digital.......big jump for me!

 

For perspective I am using an Antipodes K22 and a Lampizator Big 4. Below is what the chain looks like at the moment:

 

NBN Box > Supra Cat8 cable > standard Netcomm modem/router > no name ethernet cable > sotm iso cat6 filter > atlas mavros grun cable > edis creation silent switch ocxo > atlas mavros grun cable > waversa ext1 filter > cable that came with ext1 > antipodes k22

 

Phew I think thats everything. To me it sounds so much better than without although I have no idea if I need the sotm iso cat6 in the chain. The Atlas Mavros Grun ethernet cables only have a few hours on them so just chilling for now. 

 

The Waversa Ext1 is rather perplexing without the Edis Creation ocxo switch. It comes to life when a switch is added fyi. I have a Sotm DCBL Cat 7 cable that I am not using since the Atlas cables arrived. Atlas have more meat on the bones than Sotm but Sotm has lovely tone. When I was burning in my Atlas Mavros spdif cable the change was very noticeable so hoping the same is true for the ethernet cable. 

 

All the bits have added something and are important so I cannot rank improvements or anything like that and once something sounds good to me I'm not a constant tinkerer or likely to spend hours swapping and comparing.

 

To me buying items for my ethernet network for audio is no different than buying any oither bit if gear for my system.

 

Once I has heard what a simple cable change could do that was all I needed! Its all about the music and how it sounds

 

 

Edit: i did try a Supra cat 8 cable to replace the no name cable between modem/router and sotm iso cat6 and didnt like it. Ive ordered a Melco ethernet cable so will see if that suits. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Gryffles

[Assisi]

I am not good at preparing schematics of my network.  Below is summary of my experience. 

 

With Ethernet I started simple with my audio network.  Initially I had a low level Linux Ripnas server, small Synology NAS and an Antipodes DX all connected via a Netgear 108 switch.  The PS Audio DAC was connected to the DX via USB.  The switch was connected to the Telstra Router Modem via cable. Bubble control.  Worked fine.

 

 

Then I tried a Bonn N8 switch.  Small but perceptible lowering of the noise floor.  From then on it has been a steady progression of plug and play.  I did try an Etheregen.  I thought that in my situation the Bonn was very marginally better.  I was not comfortable with the heat of the Etheregen.

Since I started my network journey.  My DAC, amplifiers and speakers are now much higher quality. The performance of the Weiss Helios DAC Ethernet connected is incredible after 3 months plus of settling in.   The improvements in these three aspects above enable me to detect even very subtle improvements resulting from changes in the network setup.

 

 

With a network it is case of starting reasonably simple and expanding the configuration over time. As I say above plug and play. There can and will be benefits as one determines what works with what.  To me it is all about reducing the noise floor. Then the recorded music playback is impacted less by the noise from interference sources.

 

 

My Audio Ethernet network starts from a Ubiquiti Dream Router. It is intended to isolate the audio network traffic from all other in-house network traffic. I was not involved in the setup.  Audio network finishes at the DAC.  See below.

 

 

From the Ubiquiti there is 15mt Finisar Cisco compatible AOC connection to a Sonore Optical Converter.  I would prefer a Cisco genuine but the max Cisco length is 10mt.  I have tried a couple of DAC cables instead of AOC.  The AOC was better.  The AOC is better than separate optical with and SFPs.

 

 

The Sonore is connected to a Waversa Core2 server via RJ45 cable.  The server is connected to a Waversa Router that is acting as a switch only.  The only setting is 100mgb speed. A Naim Uniticore NAS is also connected to the Waversa Router.

 

 

A Paul Pang Quad switch is connected to the Waversa Router.

 

 

Next a SOtM sNH-10G +sCLK_EX is connected to the Paul Pang.

 

 

A Melco S100 is connected via 1mt Cisco genuine AOC to the SOtM.  The benefit from the Cisco AOC was impressive.  Both the Melco and the SOtM are powered by separate LPS to ensure improved electrical isolation. Any one considering optical and if the length is 10mts or less I recommend the genuine Cisco AOC.

 

 

A Nordost Qnet Switch is connected to the Melco via RJ45.  There is a second QNet connected to the first one. Now the Qnets are powered by the Nordost smps. I expect a benefit when I can power them with LPS.  The Qnet switches both “float” on stands that I made.  Seems to be a benefit from the stands.

 

 

A Waversa EXT ref Filter is connected to the second Qnet.  Definite benefit.

 

 

The Weiss Helios DAC is connected to the Filter via Vertere RJ45.  Serious cable.

 

 

I have tried other switches such as Renolabs.  It could be said that I have too many.  My experience and position are that more than one switch provides a better outcome than just one switch.  Reduced noise floor. One day I may reduce the numbers. I do not like to take switches out to compare.  It can take awhile for a switch to settle after it has been off. 

 

 

Isolation treatments such as feet are important.  A few of the switches are connected to my in ground earth. 

Also try and work out if you have more than one switch, what is the best position in your network for each switch.  Best last for me.

 

John

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

What were your subjective impressions as to the sound quality, with the various changes you made?

It was hard to tell any difference in sighted, and "get up and spend a few minutes making the changes" types of tests.

In a faster changeover test, I got really bad results (like I totally couldn't tell if it had been changed, or I thought it had changed when it hadn't... more often than not).

 

I got better results on various tests between the onboard ethernet in the computer and a USB to ethernet converter ... and also with some changes to the operating system configuration.... but these were still not much over 50/50 where they could be tested with a fast (a second or two delay, don't leave the seat) change over type of test.

 

I also tested connecting other "bad" devices to the network (eg. to the Cisco 8port basic switch) that the audio pc was sharing, like some servers (like datacenter jet-engine fan servers), storage boxes, and some other computers..... and turning these on and off, and having them create a lot of traffic.   I did measurements of these, as it was easy to leave the "badness" going (or quickly turn them on and off), and repeat multiple measurements of different things.... I don't even think I bothered doing "listening tests" of that, as I think my speakers were apart for filter tweaks.... but the SPL measurements were totally unchanged.

[Gryffles]

5 hours ago, Hydrology said:

I wish you every success with the thread @Snoopy8!

 

I use a Waversa Smarthub3.0 and in my experience it is sublime. Does the system sound great without it - yes, but this adds another layer, or rather, removes a layer and gets me closer to the emotional aspect of the music.

 

My digital playback (in addition to the hub/switch above) is comprised of:-

 

T+A DAC200 DAC

T+A M200 Monoblocs x 2

Innuos ZEN MK3

Wharfedale Elysian 4

 

Highly resolving, fast, agile with great transparency is how I would described the sonic character of my system. The Waversa adds to this.

Nice system there. ANy plans to add one of the Waversa filters? Imagine would be bloody good with their switch as its certainly good with my switch

Edited December 9, 2023 by Gryffles

[davewantsmoore]

4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Routers

Oh, I totally forgot to say I tested all of that against wifi, which is what I use normally.

 

I also tried wifi to my home network (which is what I use normally), and wifi to a smartphone 'hotspot'.

 

I used to use a dedicated wireless ap (with it's own wifi network) for my audio pc ... but I don't do that anymore.

 

 

EDIT:  Also forgot (moving too fast today), that it was almost all done with 100mbps port configuration.

Edited December 9, 2023 by davewantsmoore

[MLXXX]

3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Oh, I totally forgot to say I tested all of that against wifi, which is what I use normally.

 

I also tried wifi to my home network (which is what I use normally), and wifi to a smartphone 'hotspot'.

 

Sounds like you tried out a lot of permutations.

[davewantsmoore]

9 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Sounds like you tried out a lot of permutations.

It was like 5 switches, most of them with and without the etherregen, a few against each other, and all against wifi (cos that is quite simple to switch between... just unplug the ethernet cable and let it fail over).

 

Then a test between NBN and 4G internet... and a test between the onboard ethernet and a connecting the ethernet via a USB to Ethernet adapter (I only did this for the SW1).

 

The other thing I have tried is ethernet over fibre, but this was in my old audio computer, where I installed a fibre ethernet adapter in a PCI slot .... but  my new audio player (effectively an I2S to SPDIF converter, with a fancy reclocker and power supply) is much better.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by davewantsmoore

[Keith_W]

4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Coincidentally, I am the same as @Snoopy8... in that I've tried etherregen and renolabs sw1 earlier this year.

 

I tried all the different routers/switches with and without the regen and with and without their usual power supplies (used a teradak linear supply instead).

 

It's also interesting that the DACs in my speakers use a similar sort of scheme to the Kii that snoopy has.

 

It's on:

 

Computer with custom Linux, Ethernet cable is Belden 7989P

I2S to battery/capacitor supply isolator and reclocker (crystal cvhd950)

AES SPDIF to speakers + subs (SPDIF cable is Belden 1694A)

 

Hypex amplifiers / DACs / crossovers direct wired to drivers)

Horn from 300Hz up (1m horn coaxially driven)

15" from 60Hz up (Acoustic Elegance TD15M)

12" subwoofers  (Peerless 830500)

 

 

 

Routers

 

Renolabs SW1

Ubiquity Edge Router

Cisco 3650X

Cisco (?) 8 port 1gbps switch

Wired direct to NBN FTTP NTD

USB to Ethernet converter connected to smartphone (4G)

Billion ADSL modem router from ~2000 (the most horrid slow noisy unreliable garbage that any ISP ever gave away for free)

 

 

 

 

You should start a showcase thread. 

[Duke40]

I will try to provide a balanced view, though as my network evolves/changes from trying things out, somethings still make a considerable upgrade ... somethings I have tried no longer make an impact. Plus I will break this up into 2 seperate posts, else too long winded [probably because I included not just what I have tried, but what impact it had].

 

My network had a change last weekend, I moved one of my EtherREGENs from AV rack to Network rack ... used it as a FMC between my Firewall and 1st MikroTik CRS305 switch.

Included a network diagram to illustrate setup in its current state.

This made several tweaks for anything prior to the EtherREGEN on the Network rack redundant .

This included:

- iFi LAN iSilencers on modem & firewall no longer have any impact [and I had mixed feelings about using it on my Nucleus].

- iFi iPower X no longer have any impact on modem & router [in comparison to using stock supplied SMPS]. 

- Better linear supplies no longer have impact on modem & router.

- Roon Nucleus always used to benefit from a quality LPS, it now no longer matters [though I still have it attached].

- I used to be able to hear a difference if I used my Nucleus as a Roon core in comparison to using my Macbook Pro as Roon core over WiFi, I no longer do.

- Moved connecting my Nucleus from 1st CRS305 switch to one of the ports on my Firewalla router, no longer noticed a sound difference.

- I recently replaced my ethernet cables on the Network rack from Designacable Cat 5E and Blue Jeans Cat 6 with FS.COM Cat 6 UTP and Cat 6A STP, I heard zero difference [though I will wait for the rest of my order from FS.COM to arrive and standardise on Cat 6A UTP as I do not want to introduce unnecessary ground loops].

 

Other things which never made an impact:

- I also tried grounding my switch or firewall on my Network rack, never heard a difference.

- Connected an IsoTek Initium power cable from wall AC socket to iFi PowerStation, no noticeable change.

- Replaced a FS.COM cable with a Corning Gold optic cable, heard no change.

 

Plus I could lose one of the 3 MikroTik CRS305 ... I found an improvement moving from 1 x CRS305 to 2 x CRS305 [especially when I connected them together via a 10G Cisco AOC cable], the 3rd CRS305 does not provide any further improvement, but I would rather utilise it in the switch chain [rather than it sitting in the cupboard].

 

I used to have 2 EtherREGENS on my AV rack, one for my Naim Uniti Atom [I enjoy music for an hour or two daily via Focal Utopia 2022 headphones] the other EtherREGEN to improve my Audio/Visual for the Apple TV 4K/Sony OLED/Naim MuSo 2 [as I found great benefits for video as well as audio when utilising the EtherREGENS]. Though I was reading about Ethernet RJ45 SFPs that I was utilising for my MikroTik switch's as potentially being a source of poor performance. So did a bit of a reconfiguration of my network to eliminate them.

 

One thing I should note, is that if I power down my switchs [to change power supplies or re-cable ethernet or fibre cables], it usually takes 24 to 48 hours to settle, not sure why. Maybe the clocks need some time to stabilise, reach optimum temperature. So I tend to listen for changes for a week [no quick A/B], then fall back to previous configuration, prior to deciding if I will keep the change.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Duke40
typo

[Duke40]

Alrighty then , now for the things that mattered from a network perspective in my setup:

 

- Replacing my bunnings powerboard with an iFi Audio PowerStation & adding an AC iPurifier next to its power cord on the wall socket, resulted in less grain/glare. Poorly mastered recording still sound bad, though better, plus high quality recordings such as Rebecca Pidgeon "Spanish Harlem" even better, notice more the inflection of voice. I think I may be very sensitive to glare/grain/harshness/sibilance. If I minimise these attributes I do find I tend to listen to music for longer, less fatiguing. For perspective, I found the impact of adding the iFi PowerStation to power my AV rack to be much less than adding a quality balanced power supply [Holton Audio] to my AV rack. 

- Largest improvement is still the EtherREGENs ... especially appreciated the improvements to bass, it became more nuanced/articulate.

- Quality LPS are important on switchs, noticeable on the MikroTik CRS305, even more so on the EtherREGENs, the Gieseler Kraftwerk II enhanced the benefits of all my switchs.

- GroundHog+ on the EtherREGEN on my AV rack [my last switch prior to audio gear] gave a subtle improvement.

- Getting rid of the Ethernet RJ45 SFPs that I was using, so the path was just optical from the 1st ER [which is fed by my Firewall] all the way to my 2nd ER on AV rack. Heard more detail, lower noise floor, less harshness.

- Apple TV 4K really benefits from iFi Audio LAN iSilencers, performed more testing in last few weeks, initially I thought it was minimal by having 2 of them piggy backed from the ATV ethernet port, now I have had more time, the PQ does improve, especially the depth & clarity of image. I also tried them connected to one of the EtherREGEN "A" ports then Cat 6 UTP cable to ATV 4K 2022 ethernet port, this did not work as well, LAN iSilencer really needs to be attached to the rear of the ATV.  Elsewhere I found the benefit of LAN iSilencers minimal in comparison to the other things that mattered, with the only [very pleasing surprise for PQ, it was significant wow moment] being connected on rear ethernet port of ATV.

- Having a Cisco AOC 10G cable in my switch chain between 2 CRS305 switchs matters, it is a step up over using just 1 CRS305, or 2 CRS305 connected via 1G fibre. Not sure why. What I hear is less grain/harshness, more detail [and I usually associate that with lower noise floor].

- Optical SFPs matter ... a lot ... especially which brand. I use a mixture of multi mode and single mode, this does not matter as much as who manufactured the SFPs. Finisar and Cisco SFPs were a great improvement. They typically affect soundstaging/imaging, as well as frequency [Cisco AOC 10G cables that I use have more lush sound, bass and mids. Finisar, especially the higher quality industrial 1318 BTL versions resulted in more detail also more mids/treble focussed, with wider more distant soundstage].

- My Network and AV racks are completely isolated from each other. Not just by utilising a fibre optic cable between the two to eliminate grounds loops, and a balanced power supply to power the AV rack.  I also utilise Townshend Audio Seismic Pods and IsoAcoustic Aperta stands & ISoPucks. Been using them so long it is difficult to remember what improvements exactly that they bring, though I do recall very precise imaging & sound-staging, being a benefit, along with noticing more detail in recordings.

 

Apart from the sound impressions mentioned above, when making a change I listen closely for softening of transients.  This can make it easier listening, though over time less engaging. Noticed improvement to transients from the things that mattered above, though can no longer accurately recall, which of above made an improvement or which tweak caused no change [if a change/tweak causes a softening of transients, it does not last long in my system].

 

I also value PRaT, especially timing. Soundstaging/imaging are less important to me, though the things that mattered above resulted in improvements in these areas too, and they do matter IME as it helps to minimise the in head sound of headphones, though I still feel like I am in the first row.

 

Also listen for a lowering of the noise floor, when this is achieved I notice more details in recordings, subtle changes in tone, and the inflection in a singers voice, it helps to convey the emotion for me. Above changes that mattered, also helped improve this attribute.

 

My next change is that I have a Ghent Audio ET11(A) Belden 1303E CAT6a Ethernet Cable (JSSG360) arriving next week, to connect "B' side of EtherREGEN to Naim Uniti Atom HE.

 

Yes  it is a bit of overkill for what is a simple headphone setup [Naim Uniti Atom Headphone Edition with Focal Utopia 2022 headphones] and minimalist AV setup [Apple TV 4K, Sony OLED 77", Naim MuSo 2]. I do realise my gear is much more humble than others on this site.  Just my experience.

 

Though previously I never enjoyed streaming previously as much as my now long ago worn out Marantz DVD9600 universal player for CD's.

That is no longer the case.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Duke40
typo

[davewantsmoore]

52 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

You should start a showcase thread. 

When I have a little more time and money to throw at it, I will build a larger dedicated room, and there will be a showcase or three.

[Hydrology]

3 hours ago, Gryffles said:

Nice system there. ANy plans to add one of the Waversa filters? Imagine would be bloody good with their switch as its certainly good with my switch

Yes, I even have a LAN-EXT1 to hand, just haven't got round to it yet. 2024 for sure, plus once the new gear settles in.

[Assisi]

5 hours ago, Duke40 said:

Yes  it is a bit of overkill for what is a simple headphone setup

Overkill with networking if worked out through trialing can be beneficial.  There are many things that I could comment on from your two posts where our experience is similar.

5 hours ago, Duke40 said:

One thing I should note, is that if I power down my switchs [to change power supplies or re-cable ethernet or fibre cables], it usually takes 24 to 48 hours to settle, not sure why. Maybe the clocks need some time to stabilise, reach optimum temperature. So I tend to listen for changes for a week [no quick A/B],

 

Your setup is impressive.  If you have read my post in this thread above you will know that I also prefer more than on switch.  Like me you have several.  You have an emphasis on optical with SFP connections.  I do not.  My experience is that optical that with SFPs there is an upside as you say.  There also is down side.  I suggest that some of the dynamics is missing. Mind you I am listening through speakers and you are headphones.   I am told by others who understand more than I do that the down side is due to signal conversion.  I have a full box of  several optical cables and numerous quality SFPs.  I was never totally happy with any of them.

 

I then discovered Cisco genuine AOC which you also use.  With the AOC I was pleased with outcome. I would not over do the optical as you have. My preference is quality RJ45 with the shield disconnected at the receiving end.

 

I also note that in two instances you power some connected switches with the same LPS.  I understand that this may not be ideal.  Whilst the optical provides isolation, the power connections may not do so via the same LPS.

 

I do not like to dismantle my network.  However, I do wonder what the outcome would be for you, if you tried just one Etheregen and one Microtik with an AOC connection and both switches powered by different LPS.  The order of which switch come first and last would also be interesting to compare.  Just a suggestion.

 

John 

[Duke40]

8 hours ago, Assisi said:

Your setup is impressive.  If you have read my post in this thread above you will know that I also prefer more than on switch.  Like me you have several.  You have an emphasis on optical with SFP connections.  I do not.  My experience is that optical that with SFPs there is an upside as you say.  There also is down side.  I suggest that some of the dynamics is missing. Mind you I am listening through speakers and you are headphones.  

 

Thank you .  Yes I have noticed from reading your posts that you prefer more than one switch, and I also have found similar benefits of using multiple switch.

I focussed more on optical to prevent any ground loops, leakage current.

Also found that different brands of switchs [and optical SFP modules] bring different improvements - I will expand on that later in this post.

 

John, that is a good point regarding dynamics & optical SFPs.

I find the Focal Utopia 2022 to have great micro & macro dynamics [it was the first attribute I noticed when I got them], along with being ruthless of any deficiencies in the network/audio chain, those Beryllium drivers are unforgiving - though when I reflect on your post I have not been recently listening for changes in dynamics.

 

Anyhoo, I will listen carefully today for any change to dynamics via the LAN optical path VS an alternative - to see if I have gone backwards regarding dynamics - every now and then as a reality check I switch my Naim Uniti Atom HE to WiFi as the Atom actually has great WiFi ability [it saves any effort recabling plus I know I still have great dynamics via the WiFi path using the Atom, it is different aspects in sound quality such as lower noise floor/more detail/less harshness/soundstaging/imaging that I tend to notice more with LAN].

 

8 hours ago, Assisi said:

I am told by others who understand more than I do that the down side is due to signal conversion. 

 

Agree.  

Which is why I have actually eliminate 3 x RJ 45 ethernet SFP modules from my system path recently, I use to have more signal conversion [ethernet to optical] going on.

 

Benefit of this is that I have been able to minimise the amount of signal conversion to:

RJ45 - Optical Fibre path - RJ45

for 

Basic Network stuff  - optical isolation - AV endpoints

 

Yes, I know I could go further on minimising signal conversion [ethernet to optical], I may try sometime early next year.

 

The other type of signal conversion that I found beneficial was within the optical path, converting 1G to 10G, this is why I link the CRS305 switchs via Cisco AOC 10G cables.

 

8 hours ago, Assisi said:

I have a full box of  several optical cables and numerous quality SFPs.  I was never totally happy with any of them.

 

Me too .

 

In my earlier days of SFPS the brand Planet Tech were recommended.

They were the most expensive SFPs that I have ever purchased, also the worst sounding, so harsh - it nearly caused me to initially give up on trying network isolation/optical networking.

Inexpensive FS.COM SFP modules actually outperformed them.

Then I picked up 8 x Finisar FTLF8524P2BNV multimode SFP used modules off ebay [total of about $40 for all 8], which were better again.

 

Cost does not always correlate with SQ, in respect to SFP modules.

 

What I did find essential, is that the brand be Finisar for SFP 1G single mode modules [preferably the BTL versions FTLF1318P3BTL or FTLF1318P2BTL, which are industrial grade, supposed to have better laser/network jitter specs].

 

Alternatively, when I can deploy them, I am very impressed with Cisco AOC ... CISCO SFP-10G-AOC1M - 10GBASE Active Optical Cable.

 

Sometimes when I am SFP rolling, I feel like it is the 21st century version of tube rolling .

 

While I find significant difference between SFP modules - never really experienced that with optical cables.

I replaced some of my FS.COM optical cables [got the ones which use corning cable] with Corning Gold, absolutely no change, though that is probably because I spent a couple of extra dollars per cable to get the FS.COM cables that are made with corning fibre.

 

9 hours ago, Assisi said:

I then discovered Cisco genuine AOC which you also use.  With the AOC I was pleased with outcome. I would not over do the optical as you have. My preference is quality RJ45 with the shield disconnected at the receiving end.

 

Yes, 100% agree ... Genuine Cisco SFP-10G-AOC cables were a very pleasant surprise ... not as detailed as the Finisar SFP modules, though have lovely mids/bass.

Very impressed with these Cisco Active Optical Cables [to compare I did have a MikroTik 10G AOC which I found harsh, and the Cisco 10G AOC is superior].

 

Plus they are not very expensive.

I pay a little more for the ones that come in original Cisco box's [there are a lot of counterfeit Cisco and Finisar out there on eBay].

 

9 hours ago, Assisi said:

I also note that in two instances you power some connected switches with the same LPS.  I understand that this may not be ideal.  Whilst the optical provides isolation, the power connections may not do so via the same LPS.

 

Yes, I agree that it may not be ideal to power multiple switch on dual LPS, though I did some testing.

 

The 2nd and 3rd MikroTik CRS305 in my switch path is powered by the same Gieseler Kraftwerk II Dual LPS [I think I labelled this as LPS 3 in my diagram in previous post].

Both of these switch only have optical connections, so no worries regarding any leakage current from other devices, my only concern is power connections between these two switchs.

Though 2nd [middle] CRS305 is kind of redundant, so have previously have removed it from the switch chain, so the dual LPS only powers the 3rd [last switch on my Network rack] CRS305.

Noticed no difference.

So placed it back in the switch chain, even though the 2nd CRS305 does not do anything where installed [or in the cupboard] at least I know it is working and can be used as a hot spare for either the 1st or 3rd CRS305.

 

The Gieseler Kraftwerk II Dual LPS  [labelled this as LPS 2], is where I had more concern regarding power isolation as it is powering the 1st EtherREGEN [which accepts RJ45 into the "B" side, so utilises the "moat" of the ER] and the 1st CRS305. I also tried just powering LPS2 for the EtherREGEN, leaving LPS3 to power 1st and 3rd CRS305, it was difficult to notice any difference.

 

I do realise with the testing mentioned above, it is flawed as I really need one more extra LPS to test properly.

I did attempt using an iPower X, though was satisfied with the current configuration in the network/AV diagram I posted earlier.

 

Even though the above tests found no real differences or negative effects with using dual LPS, other configurations I did notice an effect.

A few months ago I initially tried powering Nucleus and 1st CRS305 using dual LPS 2, I was better off with leaving a dedicated LPS 1 just for the Nucleus.

Not sure if that would still be the case, as since I moved one of my EtherREGENS from AV rack to Network rack last week, I simply can not determine any power/tweaks for network gear located prior to the 1st EtherREGEN [this includes NBN modem, Firewall/Router, Nucleus].

 

9 hours ago, Assisi said:

I do not like to dismantle my network.  However, I do wonder what the outcome would be for you, if you tried just one Etheregen and one Microtik with an AOC connection and both switches powered by different LPS.  The order of which switch come first and last would also be interesting to compare.  Just a suggestion.

 

I tried this a few weeks ago ... the Cisco active optical cable,  Cisco SFP-10G-AOC1M cable will not work between an EtherREGEN and MikroTik CRS305.

ER is a 1Gbe SFP device.

CRS305 is natively a 10G SFP+ device.

The fault is with the CRS305, it does not do auto negotiation properly ... and when I try to manually set the link speed to 1G on the CRS305 the link fails.

 

Found the Cisco SFP-10G-AOC1M works only in the following configuration between two 10G SFP+ switchs:

CRS305 >> CRS305

 

Cisco SFP-10G-AOC also works between 1G SFP devices [which I believe your Melco S100 and SoTM switch are, and note that you have confirmed by one of your earlier posts in this thread].

 

Actually have another Cisco SFP-10G-AOC3M cable on the way, should arrive in a few weeks.

This will be long enough to reach between the ER on the Network Rack and the last ER on the AV rack, without any massive recabling efforts.

Aim of this is to test once again what the removal of the MikroTik CRS 305 switchs do to the sound.

I will probably end up keeping this cable as a spare ... as I find the use of two CRS 305 in my switch path to provide complimentary benefits to the ERs.

 

Also previously tried swapping the order of the switch for which is first and last. 

Below is ordered by preference:

1. ER - CRS305 - CRS305 - CRS305 - ER

1. ER - CRS305 - CRS305 - ER [sounds exactly the same as 1 above].

3. CRS305 - CRS305 - CRS305 -ER - ER

3. CRS305  - CRS305 -ER - ER [sounds exactly the same as 3 above].

5. CRS305 - CRS305 - CRS305 -ER

5. CRS305  - CRS305 -ER [sounds exactly the same as 5 above].

6. ER - ER

7. ER - CRS305 [this is the worst combo, I suspect it is because I need to rely on RJ45 SFR Ethernet modules in the CRS305 to connect to endpoints, which do not have the same quality as the ethernet ports on the ER, plus I utilise the side "B" port of the ER which also provides the "moat" and more isolation from other devices attached to the last switch in the chain, which is important when feeding the Naim Uniti Atom HE as this is always the path that is my best endpoint for SQ, so it gets a preference in my setup. This last configuration does not allow this]. 

*** I have 4 quality LPS, so from list items 5 to 7 above was able to utilise seperate LPS.

[Addicted to music]

The best thing that’s happened in this household: wifi. 

[Gryffles]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:30 PM, Gryffles said:

i did try a Supra cat 8 cable to replace the no name cable between modem/router and sotm iso cat6 and didnt like it. Ive ordered a Melco ethernet cable so will see if that suits. 

The Melco cable turned up today and upon first listen it seems to be a winner. 
 

Might get a 0.5m one to go between the nbn box and modem/router. 
 

It’s the older superseded model, C1AE, so good prices 

[PeterB7858]

8 hours ago, Gryffles said:

The Melco cable turned up today and upon first listen it seems to be a winner. 

 

Good to know, Ben. Thanks.

I always thought that Melco ethernet cables should be worth a look. 

They sell some serious kit and if they recommend their own very reasonably priced cable they must be happy with what they came up with.

The newer C100 is still less than $200.

[Duke40]

Ghent Audio ET11 Belden 1303E CAT6a Ethernet Cable (JSSG360) arrived,  connected to "B' side of EtherREGEN to Naim Uniti Atom HE.

 

Bloom was the first thing I noticed, more richness and warmth.

Initially I feared that this may be at the cost of detail, though the subtle details still exist and are noticeable, just not highlighted as much.

 

It was a subtle change, a worthwhile improvement.

 

[Rawlit]

Hello all,

 

I'm just starting my journey into streaming coming from a vinyl setup

 

What's your recommendation to keep my setup to a minimum? I don't like having too many boxes and cables.

 

I just got a streamer and clock on the front end and I'm considering adding either an etherregen or Ediscreation Fiberbox

 

The ER allows me to use my clock to sync with my streamer while the Fiberbox can better filter optically, I just wished the Fiberbox had a clock input, instead it has a clock onboard.

 

I'm currently plugged straight into my WiFi repeater with a LAN cable.

 

Thank you all for your recommendation on a simplified setup 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Rawlit

[Snoopy8]

26 minutes ago, Rawlit said:

What's your recommendation to keep my setup to a minimum? I don't like having too many boxes and cables.

to the forum.

 

If you are serious about not having too many boxes and cables, suggest looking at Renolabs.

https://renolabs-audio.com/product-category/audio-switch

Or with a higher budget

https://innuos.com/phoenixnet/

 

Howver, once you start looking at a switch, a clock and optical fibre, than you start getting complicated.  Last but not least, what are you prepared to spend, and how much time do you want to explore this rabbit warren?