Stereophilus Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 5 hours ago, March Audio said: There is no evidence to support this assertion; that kit which is properly designed for EMI immunity somehow sounds "ordinary". Or that the converse is true. @acg was kind enough to give you evidence. You even quoted it. The evidence was his own experiences, which is the specified evidence requested in the title of this thread. Ironic really...
Assisi Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 On 28/08/2023 at 5:49 PM, March Audio said: As I pointed out earlier, many / most audiophile switches havent been tested for EMI. Most "normal" switches are by virtue of being CE/FCC/Tick mark approved, have. This proves they are not a problem. I assume that you are suggesting that many or most audiophile switches are not compliant with CE accreditation whereas “normal” switches are compliant and not a problem. As you say the normal are not or should not be aproblem with EMI. What is your experience with audiophile switches in the context of your awareness of their accreditation? Is this another example of you posting something without you having any evidence or experiences. I checked a few of my switches that I could get at easily. All are marked CE. I expect that the others are also. If there is an EMI issue it may not be due to the switch per se. Rather the power coming in may contain the interference and not the switch. The switch may mitigate power the EMI problems. There are many contributions to the matter of noise. It is not just because of EMI. There is RFI and resonance and vibrations. The Audiophile switches that I have are designed and engineered to alleviate to some extent all these potential noise problems. Therefore, reduced noise floor. For example, some switches have no Led lights on the ports or the lights can be on or off. The Nordost is circular so the ports are further way from each other so there is less interference. Some of the ports on My Waversas are battery powered. Removing the shield on the cable receiving end is beneficial. The materials and the isolation compartment design of the enclosure. The internal clocks. The list goes on and on. Everything adds up to an improved listening outcome for me via the streamer and the DAC. John
March Audio Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 12 hours ago, Stereophilus said: @acg was kind enough to give you evidence. You even quoted it. The evidence was his own experiences, which is the specified evidence requested in the title of this thread. Ironic really... I'm afraid there is an obvious problem with ACGs experience. Can he tell us how he established that the difference in audio quality was due to one unit being sensitive to emi and one not? He can't. All he can say is that one unit sounded different to another. Anything else is just guesswork.
March Audio Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Assisi said: I assume that you are suggesting that many or most audiophile switches are not compliant with CE accreditation whereas “normal” switches are compliant and not a problem. As you say the normal are not or should not be aproblem with EMI. What is your experience with audiophile switches in the context of your awareness of their accreditation? Is this another example of you posting something without you having any evidence or experiences I checked a few of my switches that I could get at easily. All are marked CE. I expect that the others are also. I suggest you check all of them. You are missing the point. The point was that if a switch has approvals then it will have been tested for EMC. So practically all normal switches are proven to have low levels of EMI which should not cause problems for any well designed surrounding equipment. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: If there is an EMI issue it may not be due to the switch per se. Rather the power coming in may contain the interference and not the switch. The switch may mitigate power the EMI problems. There are many contributions to the matter of noise. It is not just because of EMI. There is RFI and resonance and vibration Again part of the compliance testing is EMI rejection and its part of any competent design. BTW EMI / RFI are the same thing. I used to work in vibration analysis. The vibration in audio kit is extremely low. We can easily measure if this really is problem. Sounds like time for another test to demonstrate it isn't. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: The Audiophile switches that I have are designed and engineered to alleviate to some extent all these potential noise problems. Therefore, reduced noise floor. Checked this. No change in the noise floor when using multiple different switches. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: For example, some switches have no Led lights on the ports or the lights can be on or off. LEDs don't make any noise. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: The Nordost is circular so the ports are further way from each other so there is less interference. But we already know standard shaped switches don't cause any problems. They get tested. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: Some of the ports on My Waversas are battery powered. How does that stop radiated or conducted EMI? As an aside, when designers resort to batteries it really just means they don't know how to design a quiet PSU. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: Removing the shield on the cable receiving end is beneficial. Yes I will give you that one. Shielded cat 6 can create problematic ground loops. 12 hours ago, Assisi said: The materials and the isolation compartment design of the enclosure. The internal clocks. The list goes on and on. Well we are back to compliance testing which demonstrates these things not to be a problem. Switch internal clocks have no relation to jitter in the dac output. Edited August 31, 2023 by March Audio 1
Addicted to music Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 13 hours ago, Assisi said: I assume that you are suggesting that many or most audiophile switches are not compliant with CE accreditation whereas “normal” switches are compliant and not a problem. As you say the normal are not or should not be aproblem with EMI. What is your experience with audiophile switches in the context of your awareness of their accreditation? Is this another example of you posting something without you having any evidence or experiences. I checked a few of my switches that I could get at easily. All are marked CE. I expect that the others are also. If there is an EMI issue it may not be due to the switch per se. Rather the power coming in may contain the interference and not the switch. The switch may mitigate power the EMI problems. There are many contributions to the matter of noise. It is not just because of EMI. There is RFI and resonance and vibrations. The Audiophile switches that I have are designed and engineered to alleviate to some extent all these potential noise problems. Therefore, reduced noise floor. For example, some switches have no Led lights on the ports or the lights can be on or off. The Nordost is circular so the ports are further way from each other so there is less interference. Some of the ports on My Waversas are battery powered. Removing the shield on the cable receiving end is beneficial. The materials and the isolation compartment design of the enclosure. The internal clocks. The list goes on and on. Everything adds up to an improved listening outcome for me via the streamer and the DAC. John as outlined in my earlier post, if the certification is just CE, CE is for electrical safety. FCC and C tick must also be labelled. This must be not only shown on the PSU but also the product itself. 2ndly, again repeating what I have posted, most accredited switches complies to all these certification are found in enterprises use that requires certain certification to be used. 3rdly, if the 7 layers of the ethernet protocol are operating within its specification, the transmission is unaffected from any form of noise that you and anyone who uses the term “noise” that the product reduces. Digital transmission isn’t like analog even though it uses a modified (modulated ) analog signal for transmission. The way it works is that it’s literally “immune “ to all “electrical noise “ that you alluded is causing your issues or what marketing is used looking for a problem. What’s different is that the receiving device only looks at a positive or negative edge for a specific section of the clock cycle, coupled with impeccable error correction that enable it to auto speed reduction until it’s error free, and then there’s buffers in place makes it almost impossible for what you alluded to is effecting the transmission. You need to stop your train of thinking, and really look at how these technically function from digital transmission perspective and why we went this way! 2 1
MLXXX Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 19 hours ago, acg said: No big surprise this person thinks they do not have an ethernet noise problem (their words) because they already have a larger sound quality "problem" due to use of an AVR. It appears you were referring to me. As I have previously mentioned in this thread, I have a direct feed to a DAC and Sennheiser HD800 phones if what needs to be listened for is very subtle. But my equipment and my hearing acuity are of very little importance in this thread. As has been pointed out already, since this thread was started several years ago no objective evidence has been supplied to support the notion that a specialist switch is needed. (Also, recent tests @March Audio has done have not been able to replicate the phenomenon of changes in DAC output from using a specialist switch.) While one likes to give the benefit of doubt to unusual claims, in my opinion more than enough time has passed for the unusual claim of spurious noise from an Ethernet switch affecting DAC performance, to be substantiated. The mainstream audiophile (who trusts their ears) is not going to be persuaded to purchase an expensive "hi-fi" switch if they pull out the Ethernet cable of their own equipment and find no change in the sound quality of streamed music. The capacity of the streaming buffer to store many seconds' worth of digital audio not only serves to isolate against temporary glitches in the internet stream; it is also a very convenient way of testing your system for any possible adverse impact of a standard Ethernet switch. This thread will not doubt continue for some time yet, perhaps for a few more years. 2
BioBrian Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 4 hours ago, March Audio said: LEDs don't make any noise. You just lost the last shreds of credibility for me. 1 1
Guest Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 This thread has reluctantly been locked. We've tried to keep it open as long as it possibly could be, have spoken privately to numerous members, hidden many posts, kept it on moderator preview at times, tried to guide it on path, but it's a lost cause. There are many, many ongoing posts being reported, and lots of people getting upset at things said. The truth of the matter is, we all have other jobs and are not here to moderate this thread, full time (which is what it is demanding). It's a debate that could probably be had at a pub with beers and laughs and over in half an hour, or in public in a truly moderated panel, but the nature of an online forum just can't see this thread continue without some members getting way too fired up, and oftentimes, very personal. Please understand that while you look at this thread, you cannot see the since hidden posts, or those that never made it to daylight. I'd like you to know that the other volunteer moderators have been fighting to keep it alive. They have been making suggestions about how it could continue and other possibilities, but it's simply not feasible nor manageable currently. 1 3 1
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