Ethernet switches - PartA: Switches List, info & Experience

[frednork]

17 minutes ago, a.dent said:

I haven't tried the Etherregen but I do have a SOtM switch that came with my sMS-200 Ultra package. 

 

To my ears it makes absolutely no difference.

Have owned that switch (and corresponding ultra neo) and would not disagree.  

 

Now have an Etherregen, but have heard better.  

But to be clear the ER is an improvement for me.

Edited February 13, 2021 by frednork

[sir sanders zingmore]

24 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Yeah, I’m not against debate, and I’m not here to police the forum either; we have mods for that. But the OP stated the intent is “not to clutter this [thread] up with technical debates.  If you wish to advise or read about why these shouldn't work, then I created Part B for that purpose”.  Proceed as you wish.  I’m just trying to respect the wishes of the OP.

I have no interest in the debate myself - like most such debates it will go nowhere.

I was just suggesting that if the OP didn’t want the debate to happen, the thread should have been started in a different forum. 

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I have no interest in the debate myself - like most such debates it will go nowhere.

I was just suggesting that if the OP didn’t want the debate to happen, the thread should have been started in a different forum. 

It was NOT started in the Great Audio Debate but moved here because some chose to disrupt this thread, and still do! 

 

@dbastin Dale wisely split the topic so that there is space for both sides. He has put in a lot of effort to build up the list in the original post. It is fast becoming a futile exercise...

 

[dbastin]

It bothers me this thread has been moved  under The Great Debate (TGD). I was not aware, and dont recall any posts that would warrant that action.  Does anyone know why/when this occured?

 

I'd say being under TGD deters people from  participating, and also makes this resource less visible to SNAers doing research.  Which is contrary to the intent.

 

I would be less bothered if Part B was in TGD.

 

It also bothers me that as OP I can no longer edit the first post to update the list.

 

@BugPowderDust

I'd welcome your expertise under Part B.  I'm sure many would like to know how to get the results an audiophile switch provides for less expense with a generic switch.  I tried my best with a Ubiquiti switch and tweaks and got a similar result but it also cost a similar amount to EtherRegen.  But using EtherRegen across the moat from Side A to B  is superior, and just gets better with LPS, high end power cords, and other tweaks.

 

In short, it appears to me the sensitivity of properly reproducing music to 'noise' etc renders generic IT switches (using TCP /IP) inadequate for that purpose. 

 

AES67 and the like really are a different kettle of fish, and unfortunately very rarely applied in domestic settings (except Merging Technologies).

Edited February 13, 2021 by dbastin

[BugPowderDust]

7 hours ago, dbastin said:

 

In short, it appears to me the sensitivity of properly reproducing music to 'noise' etc renders generic IT switches (using TCP /IP) inadequate for that purpose. 

 

AES67 and the like really are a different kettle of fish, and unfortunately very rarely applied in domestic settings (except Merging Technologies).

You do realise that Dante and AES67 just use the same switches and the same QoS functionality that we use when shunting data packets around to prioritise one application over another?

 

the same QoS we have used for decades now to prioritise latency website applications like real-time voice and video. Streaming audio is far from latency sensitive unless you have a totally congested network interface operating near the line limit. Then QoS may help.

 

These are those same switches that give you “noise” and “jitter” etc. Dante and AES67 don’t do anything to the data stream encapsulated in the payload, so they aren’t any form of panacea to the problems you may have.

 

I really should build a test harness that lets me A/B/X across as many audiophile switches you want to bring into a room.
 

I could script the whole thing to operate randomly and without my intervention, logging which switch is in path and which is not. 
 

you could then write down what you think at timestamps (good, bad, no change), and compare to the log at the end. We can then whittle the list down and see if you can reliably tell the difference from having nothing in the path.

[BugPowderDust]

In fact, if you’re really keen on best practice switch guidelines this seems a decent primer: 

 

some interesting things to note...

- The switches are not aware of the traffic type

- all IP packets look the same

 

on a small network, a switch with limited tuning configuration will do just fine.

 

if anyone is keen to learn how to best optimise their switch for a specific traffic type that video is a fairly good primer.

[Snoopy8]

11 hours ago, dbastin said:

It bothers me this thread has been moved  under The Great Debate (TGD). I was not aware, and dont recall any posts that would warrant that action.  Does anyone know why/when this occured?

 

I'd say being under TGD deters people from  participating, and also makes this resource less visible to SNAers doing research.  Which is contrary to the intent.

Do not know when thread was moved.  I do agree that the people avoid posting in TGD; I do.

 

This happens quite a few times.  You can start a new informative thread on something new, likely improving digital.  The disruptors join in, saying it is all 0s and 1s.  The thread gets moved to TGD because there is a debate and the mods monitor TGD closely.  Many who are keen on the topic avoid the thread, the disruptors continue and ultimately, the thread gets shut down.

 

11 hours ago, dbastin said:

I would be less bothered if Part B was in TGD.

As the OP for both threads, you can request posts here to be moved to Part B.

 

11 hours ago, dbastin said:

It also bothers me that as OP I can no longer edit the first post to update the list.

I have other threads where I used to maintain the original post and can no longer edit. Sort of defeats the purpose of starting threads which are both information and up to date...

[Guest rmpfyf]

5 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

You do realise that Dante and AES67 just use the same switches and the same QoS functionality that we use when shunting data packets around to prioritise one application over another?

 

You can add a dedicated clock source. Might be the same switches, the manner in which they're used differs. 

 

It's only a small detraction from the point you're making, however. 

 

I'd go with audiophile switches being a band aid on a problem already solved more effectively elsewhere.

[BugPowderDust]

Just now, rmpfyf said:

 

You can add a dedicated clock source. Might be the same switches, the manner in which they're used differs. 

 

It's only a small detraction from the point you're making, however. 

 

I'd go with audiophile switches being a band aid on a problem already solved more effectively elsewhere.

We've had dedicated clocks on HFT switches for years. Ravenna etc brought nothing really new to the network.

 

Even the Ravenna website says the following:

"Low cost - the small audio industry ‘borrows’ technology from the much larger IT industry that has already been debugged and commoditised over many years, this greatly reduces the cost of devices such as network switches."

 

In a home network with one switch, more clocks to synchronise switches that aren't there won't help.

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

We've had dedicated clocks on HFT switches for years. Ravenna etc brought nothing really new to the network.

 

Even the Ravenna website says the following:

"Low cost - the small audio industry ‘borrows’ technology from the much larger IT industry that has already been debugged and commoditised over many years, this greatly reduces the cost of devices such as network switches."

 

In a home network with one switch, more clocks to synchronise switches that aren't there won't help.

 

Who said it's a home network with one switch  ?

[dbastin]

7 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

You do realise that Dante and AES67 just use the same switches and the same QoS functionality that we use when shunting data packets around to prioritise one application over another?

Yes.  According to

@rmpfyf

it is different in the way it moves data around, and handles it, not the switches (I am summarising in very simplistic terms).

 

7 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

I really should build a test harness that lets me A/B/X across as many audiophile switches you want to bring into a room.

Please do.  Start a new thread about it, or include the findings in Part B.

 

It is not uncommon for someone with your background to put forward the types of claims you are making.  They are legit claims worth exploring.

 

I would genuinely like to know how:

 

1. say a low cost Ubiquiti switch can be made to sound as good as say a Bonn 8 for less cost.

 

2. What learnings from Audio over Ethernet protocols can be transferred to our hifi world to improve SQ.

 

But this thread is for a different purpose.

 

I honestly respect there is something we could learn from your expertise to help enjoy our music. I encourage you to participate in the Part B thread, or the Ethernet Routers for Audio thread.

[Uglu]

On 13/02/2021 at 11:54 PM, dbastin said:

It bothers me this thread has been moved  under The Great Debate (TGD). I was not aware, and dont recall any posts that would warrant that action.  Does anyone know why/when this occured?

 

I'd say being under TGD deters people from  participating, and also makes this resource less visible to SNAers doing research.  Which is contrary to the intent.

 

I would be less bothered if Part B was in TGD.

 

It also bothers me that as OP I can no longer edit the first post to update the list.

 

@BugPowderDust

I'd welcome your expertise under Part B.  I'm sure many would like to know how to get the results an audiophile switch provides for less expense with a generic switch.  I tried my best with a Ubiquiti switch and tweaks and got a similar result but it also cost a similar amount to EtherRegen.  But using EtherRegen across the moat from Side A to B  is superior, and just gets better with LPS, high end power cords, and other tweaks.

 

In short, it appears to me the sensitivity of properly reproducing music to 'noise' etc renders generic IT switches (using TCP /IP) inadequate for that purpose. 

 

AES67 and the like really are a different kettle of fish, and unfortunately very rarely applied in domestic settings (except Merging Technologies).

 

I didn't know there was "The great debate" I am sure it is the perfect place to waste time when you have too much of it. I did enjoy the thread and while it wasn't what started me on the search for a switch it has proven very helpful and want to thenk you for your effort making your list.

 

Ironic that now the thread is going to be fill with exactly what you were trying to keep away from your system, NOISE! It's amazing it had a very good run before, but this last page indicates that now is going to be tedious finding new useful posts.

[TP1]

 

 

A major design principle  of some audiophile switches such as Uptone EtherRegen is to eliminate the effects of RFI and EMI on the signals passing through.   Sites claiming to do tests  have not tested for these impurities but make conclusions anyway. It's like testing for pregnancy when they should be testing for Covid 19.

 

Conversely, if a switch makes an audible difference in one system there is no guarantee the results will be repeated in others due to different environment , system, modem/router etc.  Then there is the threshold  across which the level of difference must pass before we declare it to be "worth it".  They are not all at the same level.

 

An informed view  to me is having done listening tests with an open mind.   I think this thread would benefit from those experiences  whatever the outcome may be.   Theories that conclude what something should sound like without having done  similar listening tests, are  on the other hand,  not very helpful.

 

 

 

[TP1]

 

This rather comprehensive review of the EtherRegen is interesting too.   

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/

[dbastin]

10 hours ago, TP1 said:

An informed view  to me is having done listening tests with an open mind.

Absolutely!  We are all unique.  Everyone's experience is different, sometimes even of the very same thing.

 

10 hours ago, TP1 said:

Theories that conclude what something should sound like without having done  similar listening tests, are  on the other hand,  not very helpful.

 

Like denying someone could possibly be pregnant, without acknowledging the, you know ... obvious bump.

 

Miracles happen! 

 

Even little ones ... open ones mind to possibilities and one might experience miracles.

Edited February 16, 2021 by dbastin
Editorial error

[Assisi]

3 hours ago, TP1 said:

 

This rather comprehensive review of the EtherRegen is interesting too.   

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/

A review that whilst it was subjective, it was thorough and informative, with no use of unnecessary emotive words that contrasts interestingly with the ASR linked above.

Thanks for the link.  Very useful.  I like subjective.

John

[Epiphany Audio]

On 14/02/2021 at 4:27 AM, BugPowderDust said:

In fact, if you’re really keen on best practice switch guidelines this seems a decent primer: 

 

some interesting things to note...

- The switches are not aware of the traffic type

- all IP packets look the same

 

on a small network, a switch with limited tuning configuration will do just fine.

 

if anyone is keen to learn how to best optimise their switch for a specific traffic type that video is a fairly good primer.

This is a great primer @BugPowderDust ..Merging know what they are talking about.

[AccuTidal]

@TP1 and I spent a good afternoon doing quick listening to his Upton EtherRegen  vs my Renolab unit last Sunday. There were obviously audible differences.  Perhaps, it's best that he's giving you his version of the event.  

[Guest Eggcup the Dafter]

On 16/02/2021 at 2:54 PM, TP1 said:

 

This rather comprehensive review of the EtherRegen is interesting too.   

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/

It's a massive effort for a sighted review. At best it translates to the individual systems the switches were introduced into and the individual listener/s response, knowing the configuration under test and leaving them open to the usual biases. ALL reviews of this type are open to criticism, just as ALL the other types of test are, though. 

I found this one better than most, because it explained the claims of the device and explored a number of different aspects. I'm still getting my head around the Ethernet switch phenomenon - not least because my own untreated network seemed to give better results than the only network I know was treated that I've heard a system with.

Too many switch reviews, though, add the switch as an additional device, often shortening the cables to the streamer in the process. I did the same with a $50 switch and got improved sound through an Oppo 105 - even a cheap switch can reduce noise and improve timing. I'd like to see a review where the specialised product is compared with a control, rather than with a long cable length that just has to be noisier. 

[dbastin]

19 hours ago, Eggcup the Dafter said:

I'd like to see a review where the specialised product is compared with a control

Maybe this ...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/audiobacon.net/2019/04/05/sotm-snh-10g-audiophile-ethernet-switch-review/

 

[AccuTidal]

On 19/02/2021 at 1:46 PM, Chanh said:

@TP1 and I spent a good afternoon doing quick listening to his Upton EtherRegen  vs my Renolab unit last Sunday. There were obviously audible differences.  Perhaps, it's best that he's giving you his version of the event.  

Received good interests in the renolab switch vs Upton EthernRegen...., via private message. Though I could assist with my observation with a clarification;  

 

Between Upton and renolab, the differences were mainly more natural sounding vs Upton more resolution and analytical sonic signature. 
 

With Renolab, it seems sound stage open wide and big bigger. More depth and width. Most of all, from mid down to lower bass sound more weighty, naturally sound real and impactful. seemly more coherent and engaging. 
 

With Ethernregen, soundstage sounded like condenses to a smaller width with flatten depth. Sounded less interesting nor realism. Certainly, that 3D holographic sound imaging from renolab previously has now being squashed into 2D to my ears. Though the resolutions and more focus appears  better, however, it did compromise abit to my liking on other sonic attributes related to realism and engagement. Approx few tracks in at moderate volume, I did feel listening fatigue.

I have no affiliation with Renolab. I do not know the guy in person. Mostly am looking for SQ  as my main objective. I ordered from his website and we further our communications via Facebookmessenger until I received the unit. No communication since I had the unit. 
 

Feel free to direct your enquiry to himself. He can communicate in English..., who isn’t in these day in age? 
 

The above is my observation and feedback...., deems subjective and system dependent. Your findings may be differ and therefore it is highly recommended that you walk the journey yourself. 
 

cheers. 

 

 

[TP1]

On 19/02/2021 at 2:37 PM, Eggcup the Dafter said:

oo many switch reviews, though, add the switch as an additional device, often shortening the cables to the streamer in the process. I did the same with a $50 switch and got improved sound through an Oppo 105 - even a cheap switch can reduce noise and improve timing. I'd like to see a review where the specialised product is compared with a control, rather than with a long cable length that just has to be noisier. 

 

 

I don't think we will ever see definitive rankings and comparisons - that is the nature of the  hifi world. So  it comes down to try-outs in your system. to see which suits the best.   Based on my tryouts with these switches, I think the better ones produce less ( or block) RFI/EMI than the others.  Some cheaper switches are designed pretty well in that area.   But using  a nice linear power supply for the switch  helps as well.

Edited February 20, 2021 by TP1

[Guest Eggcup the Dafter]

20 hours ago, dbastin said:

Maybe this ...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/audiobacon.net/2019/04/05/sotm-snh-10g-audiophile-ethernet-switch-review/

 

Thanks!

 

10 hours ago, TP1 said:

 

 

I don't think we will ever see definitive rankings and comparisons - that is the nature of the  hifi world. So  it comes down to try-outs in your system. to see which suits the best.   Based on my tryouts with these switches, I think the better ones produce less ( or block) RFI/EMI than the others.  Some cheaper switches are designed pretty well in that area.   But using  a nice linear power supply for the switch  helps as well.

I've just upgraded heavily in the last couple of weeks (source has gone from a stopgap of TV and $49 Digitec dac to Marantz SA10!) and right now I'm learning my lesson re objectivist approach and interconnect cables, which have now started sounding quite different to each other, after 40 years with lots of mid fi and a couple of high end components and hearing nothing of the kind in my older systems. Humble pie duly eaten. So now, for me, getting Ethernet streaming sorted will wait until disc replay is where I can get it to.

However, I still think objectivism and measurements are a good starting point, and also that Ethernet can be effectively separated from the music. On my recent trawls through dealers auditioning equipment, I heard some decent equipment brought down to worse-than-budget-20-years-ago  sound as soon as they proudly demonstrated Tidal streaming, and in one case all the requisite Ethernet switches and special cables were in place.

 

Apparently, Benchmark can efffectively isolate noise from 60 metre cable lengths. Someone here posted what appeared to be (I've turned from objectivist to plain cynic, so excuxe the ultra cautious language) Ethernet related noise on a Linn Sneaky DSM a few years ago, as well, so we can be sure that it's a thing and audio companies pay a different level of attention to this, though the Benchmark stuff would be more expensive of course.  It's my belief that when you pay the price of a car for a piece of Ethernet attached equipment, the manufacturer should take care of noise and jitter in a system that can be pretty well isolated from the rest of the device electrically, at least - if one company can do it the others can.

I'm still totally not convinced re special audio Ethernet cables, but if the cause for this is noise, then low noise switches and short lengths of certified cable to a streamer to minimise noise would have value. The short cable length is a cheap and easy thing to try, worked for me, but is really a thing for the companion thread, I guess.

I'll duck out now but will keep following this thread

 

[Stereophilus]

36 minutes ago, Eggcup the Dafter said:

It's my belief that when you pay the price of a car for a piece of Ethernet attached equipment, the manufacturer should take care of noise and jitter in a system that can be pretty well isolated from the rest of the device electrically, at least - if one company can do it the others can.
 

Just a brief rebuttal on this point.  Whilst completely logical for analog based systems, in digital audio there is this issue of all links in the system being complicit in contributing to noise or jitter via the ground connections.  Rather than it being a stream flowing from router to switch to steamer, a digital based system is more akin to multiple "hub and spoke" nodes, each potentially allowing interaction through digital cables, analog cables, and power cables.  Therefore achieving good quality sound is a system wide task, rather than the problem of the component highest up in the chain.  Hoping to eliminate jitter by just using a great audiophile switch alone is, unfortunately, doomed to failure.

[Assisi]

1 minute ago, Stereophilus said:

Just a brief rebuttal on this point.  Whilst completely logical for analog based systems, in digital audio there is this issue of all links in the system being complicit in contributing to noise or jitter via the ground connections.  Rather than it being a stream flowing from router to switch to steamer, a digital based system is more akin to multiple "hub and spoke" nodes, each potentially allowing interaction through digital cables, analog cables, and power cables.  Therefore achieving good quality sound is a system wide task, rather than the problem of the component highest up in the chain.  Hoping to eliminate jitter by just using a great audiophile switch alone is, unfortunately, doomed to failure.

 

I agree.  Every aspect of the digital chain matters.  A weak link can spoil the benefits of all the strong links.

 

John