Ethernet switches - PartA: Switches List, info & Experience

[Snoopy8]

13 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

There seems to be many users here reporting improvements using “audio optimised” network switches, yet DAC/streamer measurements from ASR would suggest switches do in fact not make a difference.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/silent-angel-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/

 

Is ASR measuring the wrong parameters? If differences do indeed exist, what measurement would capture this difference? Thoughts? 

Audiophile switches caused trauma on various forums, including here.  The biggest resulted in a number of long standing members leaving AudiophileStyle and the setting up of separate zones.

 

12 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

At one end of things, Amir would need to learn how to measure and test for jitter with significantly more granularity, nuance and understanding than he does, and would need to understand that his often bombastic statements around jitter audibility bear no basis in fact or science. However as he knows everything and his followers consider themselves fortunate to be in a presence of someone so qualified, the above's much a moot point. De AP analyzer sez, dood, & 'iz neu AP analyzer is moar accuratar dan da last won, doooood'. 

And they went forth and multiplied on various forums...   

 

8 hours ago, dbastin said:

There comes a time when you have to get your hands on one and experience for yourself.  Keep an open mind, try not to have any expectation, allow yourself to experience it without justifying or reasoning. Trust yourself and how music feels to you with and without.

Fully agree, but the comments come back that we are imagining things...  

 

@Grizaudio, Dale (dbastin) wisely created separate threads, one for the believers (this one!)  and Why a regular switch will suffice.  It is for you to decide which path to follow.

[TP1]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

Fully agree, but the comments come back that we are imagining things...  

 

Those comments usually come from people who have not done the same listening tests that others have done.  There will always be those who are sceptical  (I still am  when it comes to claims made by some cable makers)   but the need to denigrate others is curious.   I guess  it comes down to  generating click -bait to increase site traffic.  It is more effective in doing that than a balanced investigation.

[sir sanders zingmore]

7 minutes ago, TP1 said:

Those comments usually come from people who have not done the same listening tests that others have done

 

What do you say to people who have done the required listening tests and still don't hear what they are supposed to hear?

[Guest rmpfyf]

18 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

What do you say to people who have done the required listening tests and still don't hear what they are supposed to hear?

 

To rest easy. It's equally possible to tell them they're wrong, not sufficiently sensitive, that their equipment isn't resolving enough, whatever. Or that they're right. All of which have a shot at being true. 

 

Which is why I'd go with it's important to build sensitivity through as genuinely dispassionate objectivity as one can manage.

[notchasingrainbows]

25 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

What do you say to people who have done the required listening tests and still don't hear what they are supposed to hear?

good for them so they dont need to go through all the trouble and they can spend less 

[dbastin]

48 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

What do you say to people who have done the required listening tests and still don't hear what they are supposed to hear?

 

They are only supposed to hear what their ears and brains can perceive.  If they cant hear what I and many other can, that is completely fine and perfectly true for them.  It is not a pass or fail test.

 

Some people describe things they experience on their systems (which are less resolving than mine), and I am puzzled how I don't have that experience.  I can only conclude we are all very unique and I suspect our individual perception of experiences are not the same.    So I agree with these comments ...

 

28 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

To rest easy. It's equally possible to tell them they're wrong, not sufficiently sensitive, that their equipment isn't resolving enough, whatever. Or that they're right. All of which have a shot at being true. 

 

23 minutes ago, notchasingrainbow said:

good for them so they dont need to go through all the trouble and they can spend less 

  

11 hours ago, dbastin said:

Keep an open mind, try not to have any expectation, allow yourself to experience it without justifying or reasoning. Trust yourself and how music feels to you with and without.

 

[Stereophilus]

Coincidentally, @Assisi brought over his collection of switches and Ethernet cables today.  We spent a few hours listening to separate Ethernet configurations back to back.  
 

We had my ER (using Gieseler Gold Tune LPS), a Bonn N8 (using a LPS @Assisi brought along) and a Paul Pang Quad switch.  My Antipodes CX server (Roon core) also acts as a switch.

 

We tried quite a few combinations, and also utilised some of @Assisi’s custom Ethernet cables (acoustic revive? with telegartner plugs).  To my ears these did offer a substantive improvement over all other Ethernet cables I have tried, noting that I have not previously heard differences in Ethernet cables, but have tried them out just to see.

 

Of the switches, my impression was that differences were very small.  Having the CX directly feed the streamer, rather than via a switch was one clear preference.  The ER sound was comparatively lighter, highlighting detail and air.  The Bonn N8 and the PP Quad were more dense in the midrange, the PP being more obvious than the N8.  Overall I came out of the comparison feeling that I would not consider the differences in the switches to be hugely significant, certainly not enough to encourage me to invest more money than I already have.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Stereophilus
Spelling

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

Coincidentally, @Assisi brought over his collection of switches and Ethernet cables today.  

At one stage, I was expecting @Assisi to require a cart to transport all his switches!  

 

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

 Overall I came out of the comparison feeling that I would not consider the differences in the switches to be hugely significant, certainly not enough to encourage me to invest more money than I already have.

Thank you for the interesting and informative review.  You have re-confirmed my view that it is not necessary to explore the rabbit warren further.  

[Stereophilus]

5 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

At one stage, I was expecting @Assisi to require a cart to transport all his switches!  

 

Thank you for the interesting and informative review.  You have re-confirmed my view that it is not necessary to explore the rabbit warren further.  

He did turn up with a large hard-plastic carry case full of tweaks today... But it is always fun to explore the differences and I appreciated his generosity in offering his time and equipment.

[TP1]

It would be wonderful if all these tweaks were useless so we wouldn't have to spend any money on them .    However  what may seem like minor differences to some people may appear quite significant to others.    We don't all have identical perspectives and sensitivities so  I sincerely doubt we can be definitive with the available information.

[dbastin]

I'm glad to hear @Stereophilusand @Assisi had that GTG, they suggested doing so some time ago.

 

For the benefit of those who happen to just read this thread, or post in relative isolation, lets clarify as few things.

 

Stereophilus has previously shared (probably elsewhere on SNA) the following:

• he had a streamer integrated into the Mola Mola Makua and considered that better than CX > EX > USB > ISORegen > Makua - so he removed the EX an USB from the chain.
• with is arrangement, he experiences little if any differences between ethernet cables, and as I recall even when inserting Uptone Audio JS-2 powering the EtherRegen..

Note, I think its fair to say his system is very high grade.  And probably quite a unique test bed.

 

Assisi also has a cracking system, including Weiss digital front end.  Nevertheless, his experience is the the PP Quad switch provided considerable benefit, and Bonn 8 a further improvement.

 

So, that is 2 different very high end digital front ends that are affected by ethernet switches in different ways.  Or their owners experience them differently.

 

The fact that the Makua is so insensitive to ethernet may be why the differences in switches are 'very small'.

 

Also it shows that, according to Stereophilus experience, ethernet cables do make a difference, even in a system that is somewhat insensitive to ethernet cables.

 

My queries for those 2 gents are:

1. did you try putting any of the switches between CX and Makua, with nothing else plugged into the switch (ie. use the switch solely for isolation).
2. did you compare the Weiss PS with the JS 2

I have mentioned previously, in my system I consider the Gigafoilv4 to be better than EtherRegen when using ER only as isolation.  The difference is small but does not need study to identify.   In my experiences my system reveals changes in ethernet quite readily (unfortunately?).  Presently I have:

 

Antipodes EX > ER > Gigafoil > Gigafoil > Devialet Pro (Core Infinity)

 

Power supplies are Antipodes ODAPS (12v), to ER Wyred4Sound PS 1 (2 x 5v) to Gigafoils, with Shunyata ztron Alpha power cables.

 

This is better than either ER or Gigafoil upstream of EX.

Edited January 27, 2021 by dbastin

[evil c]

20 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

At one stage, I was expecting @Assisi to require a cart to transport all his switches!  

 

Thank you for the interesting and informative review.  You have re-confirmed my view that it is not necessary to explore the rabbit warren further.  

I will be forming my own opinion when @Assisi brings over his "bag of tricks" very soon! 

Just need to rustle up an EtherRegen to compare.

[TP1]

4 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

What do you say to people who have done the required listening tests and still don't hear what they are supposed to hear?

 

I don't prescribe what people are supposed to hear. If they had done the same  listening tests and found  that a particular  ethernet switch made no difference ( and I found otherwise) , I would conclude that their system has less ethernet  related problems than mine.   The EtherRegen for example seems to reduce  noise on the lines which is consistent with my observations for both audio and video.  If someone else didn't notice anything using this device  I don't think that says the product is rubbish, its just that they are lucky enough  not to need it.

 

[Stereophilus]

4 minutes ago, dbastin said:

I'm glad to hear @Stereophilusand @Assisi had that GTG, they suggested ding so some time ago.

 

For the benefit of those who happen to just read this thread, or post in relative isolation, lets clarify as few things.

 

Stereophilus has previously shared (probably elsewhere on SNA) the following:

• he had a streamer integrated into the Mola Mola Makua and considered that better than CX > EX > USB > ISORegen > Makua - so he removed the EX an USB from the chain.
• with is arrangement, he experiences little if any differences between ethernet cables, and as I recall even when inserting Uptone Audio JS-2 powering the EtherRegen..

Note, I think its fair to say his system is very high grade.  And probably quite a unique test bed.

 

Assisi also has a cracking system, including Weiss digital front end.  Nevertheless, his experience is the the PP Quad switch provided considerable benefit, and Bonn 8 a further improvement.

 

So, that is 2 different very high end digital front ends that are affected by ethernet switches in different ways.  Or their owners experience them differently.

 

The fact that the Makua is so insensitive to ethernet may be why the differences in switches are 'very small'.

 

Also it shows that, according to Stereophilus experience, ethernet cables do make a difference, even in a system that is somewhat insensitive to ethernet cables.

 

My queries for those 2 gents are:

1. did you try putting any of the switches between CX and Makua, with nothing else plugged into the switch (ie. use the switch solely for isolation).
2. did you compare the Weiss PS with the JS 2

 

13 minutes ago, TP1 said:

It would be wonderful if all these tweaks were useless so we wouldn't have to spend any money on them .    However  what may seem like minor differences to some people may appear quite significant to others.    We don't all have identical perspectives and sensitivities so  I sincerely doubt we can be definitive with the available information.

I did intentionally keep my comparison short on detail, partly because it was an informal process, and partly because (as @TP1 and @dbastin suggest) what changes we did hear are most likely system dependent.  I definitely agree that these observations are something to be taken within their given context.  Extrapolate at your own peril!

 

We did try ER -> PP - > Makua, with the CX feeding the “A” input on the PP.  Probably not exactly what you are alluding to @dbastin, but remembering the PP is 4 switches in one case, with the ER and CX feeding the “A” switch, and the Makua being fed from the “D” switch, still a fair degree of separation.  My preference in this scenario was the CX feeding Makua directly, rather than upstream of the PP switches.  @Assisiwas in agreement with this.

 

We did also try the Weiss LPS compared to Gieseler Gold Tune LPS.  I had the JS-2 available, but we did not try it.  I do very slightly prefer the Gieseler over the JS-2 myself, but I could not confidently say I noticed a difference in sound between the Gieseler and the Weiss LPS.  @Assisi may have a different take on this than I did.

[frednork]

1 hour ago, evil c said:

I will be forming my own opinion when @Assisi brings over his "bag of tricks" very soon! 

Just need to rustle up an EtherRegen to compare.

I may be able to help out there....

[Grizaudio]

Lots of opinions.... 

 

If spending money on "audiophile switches" makes you happy, or you feel there is a difference that's awesome.

I'm not saying its not possible (I like to be open minded, and won't form an opinion until I have tried myself), but I am suggesting much of the difference would be psychoacoustic at best. For me, this goes in the same basket as cable burn in.

 

IMO these tests would be more interesting/meaningful if differences could be reliably picked without knowing which switch was in chain.

I.e. Cheap, high value, etc. 

 

As suggested by prior posters, the fact that listeners know a change has occurred (albeit a high value one), the listener is already primed to expect a difference.

Whether you like it or not, this is human psychology, bias exists.

 

IMO, if a difference in sound (improvement or otherwise) can be reliably highlighted under blind conditions I would concur there is a meaningful difference. 

If it cannot, its not meaningful.... and one should move on.  

 

I honestly believe if you are using network switches to improve your audio chain, you should have already spent smartly on the components that actually make the biggest impact. 1. Room acoustics 2. Speakers 3. Amps 4. Dac/Source 5. Music source/content 6. Room Equalisation. 

 

I stay open minded, but not optimistic. 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Grizaudio

[evil c]

9 minutes ago, frednork said:

I may be able to help out there....

Bless you Mr nork !

I did have one on loan for a week,before Xmas - and it did add a bit in terms of a more airy spacial effect.

One week isn't long to form an opinion however, as only listened a few times seriously switching between it.

I might need longer this time!

[evil c]

30 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

Lots of opinions.... 

 

If spending money on "audiophile switches" makes you happy, or you feel there is a difference that's awesome.

I'm not saying its not possible (I like to be open minded, and won't form an opinion until I have tried myself), but I am suggesting much of the difference would be psychoacoustic at best. For me, this goes in the same basket as cable burn in.

 

IMO these tests would be more interesting/meaningful if differences could be reliably picked without knowing which switch was in chain.

I.e. Cheap, high value, etc. 

 

As suggested by prior posters, the fact that listeners know a change has occurred (albeit a high value one), the listener is already primed to expect a difference.

Whether you like it or not, this is human psychology, bias exists.

 

IMO, if a difference in sound (improvement or otherwise) can be reliably highlighted under blind conditions I would concur there is a meaningful difference. 

If it cannot, its not meaningful.... and one should move on.  

 

I honestly believe if you are using network switches to improve your audio chain, you should have already spent well on the components that actually make the biggest impact. 1. Room acoustics 2. Speakers 3. Amps 4. Dac/Source 5. Music source/content. 

 

I stay open minded, but not optimistic. 

 

 

I have successfully run a few test sessions, where respective components, leads, etc. were referred to only as a number.

Obviously hard for the one switching to be impartial,  but relying solely on the opinions of others might work!

Remember @frednorkwas part of the testing panel. 

 

However as a few recent comments have alluded, to the fact opinions and preferences vary enormously !

Therefore very rare to get a large majority favoring a particular item.

It can be a good indicator of whether there are differences,  by repeated tests to try and weed out false results.

And in the end, if you prefer it,  then it's worth buying !,

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by evil c

[frednork]

17 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

I honestly believe if you are using network switches to improve your audio chain, you should have already spent well on the components that actually make the biggest impact. 1. Room acoustics 2. Speakers 3. Amps 4. Dac/Source 5. Music source/content. 

 

Would add that unless the majority of those categories are working optimally then it is going to be difficult to clearly determine differences.  I heard a system the other day which had all categories working well besides no. 1, the room acoustics.  I think it would be very difficult to determine diferences between switches in that room as it was, yet, I would be very happy with that system in a well sorted room. 

[frednork]

32 minutes ago, evil c said:

I might need longer this time!

Sure, I charge by the hour....

[Grizaudio]

4 minutes ago, frednork said:

 

Would add that unless the majority of those categories are working optimally then it is going to be difficult to clearly determine differences.  I heard a system the other day which had all categories working well besides no. 1, the room acoustics.  I think it would be very difficult to determine diferences between switches in that room as it was, yet, I would be very happy with that system in a well sorted room. 

 

The sad truth is, most audio listeners completely overlook room acoustics and room correction (DSP or otherwise). 

Probably two of the most important aspects to address, for good audio.  

A network switch doesn't really rank IMO. 

 

[Snoopy8]

20 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

Lots of opinions.... 

Lots of opinions that should be respected.

 

7 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

The sad truth is, most audio listeners completely overlook room acoustics and room correction (DSP or otherwise). 

Probably two of the most important aspects to address, for good audio.  

A network switch doesn't really rank IMO. 

I have DSP experience, DIY and packages, and understand how the room impacts SQ, challenges of room treatment etc.  And so do a few others here....

 

Fair enough if a network switch does not rank with you. Suggest you post in Why a regular switch will suffice.

[Grizaudio]

22 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Lots of opinions that should be respected.

 

I believe I was very respectful and explained my views and position with care and upmost respect.   

Back on topic. 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Grizaudio

[Assisi]

I have some things to say both about the Ethernet side and more importantly @Stereophilus's  wonderful system after a great time today.

 

 

I have only just arrived home after doing several things.  I would like to reflect a bit more overnight and will respond tomorrow.  I also want to put my bit and pieces back and get my system going again

John

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

21 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

What do you say to people who have done the required listening tests and still don't hear what they are supposed to hear?

 

'Congratulations'.