Uptone Audio EtherREGEN Owners & Discussion Thread

[dbastin]

1 hour ago, frednork said:

Are you saying the 1st config

 

(nbn connection box > several metres generic Cat 5e UTP > wall outlet > AfterDark Cat 7 > ER Side B -MOAT - Side A > 3m Single Mode Fibre > EdgeRouter SFP ... 

This config is the best I've tried.  It might be slightly better replacing fibre with Atmosphere X Ref.  BUT this may only be the best config in the context of everything else that is already downstream.

 

As I see it, the likely benefits are:

• nbn noise is isolated from Side A
• Router is isolated from Side A by fibre
• Being located in the hifi it benefits from power treatment etc that is not available near the nbn box.

Both options put fibre in between nbn box and router.

 

To me the lesson is:

 

1. Cat5e UTP x say 15m + metres with ER as FMC located in the hifi

 

Is better than

 

2. 10m fibre with a cheap ish FMC located at the nbn box with minimal special treatment.

 

It is possible a Sonore OpticalModule may perform almost as good as ER in config 1.

[Tobes]

Received my Etherregen this afternoon. 

In my setup the ethernet switch and music server (M1 Mac Mini with Roon/HQPlayer) are connected to a separate ac circuit from the audio and video equipment.

I've directly replaced the $30 Dlink switch with the ER - ethernet cables used with the ER are just generic $5 Cat6A UTP.

 

My chain is:

FTTN NBN router >>Cat5E>> wall plate >ER (A port) > ultraRendu (B port) > iFi iUSB3  > Benchmark DAC3L 

The ultraRendu and iFi iUSB3 are powered by an Uptone JS2 LPS.

 

I'll report back with my impressions.

[Tobes]

I've held off on commenting on the EtherRegen to make sure things were settled, but also because I made some other system changes which have muddied my impressions. 

The etherRegen replaced a generic D-link DGS 1008A 8 port switch located in the corner behind my equipment - ethernet wall socket wired with Cat 5e back to the Telstra NBN FTTN modem. 

 

My current system is configured thus:

• Etherregen powered by Uptone JS2 LPS's 2nd output, 12V setting
• 2012 Mac Mini server (headless, Roonserver/HQPlayer) with Uptone MMK DC adapter/fan kit, powered by Uptone JS2 LPS's 1st output, 12V with sense cct >> Etherregen 'A' port
• UltraRendu endpoint powered by Gieseler Kraftwerk II LPS >> Etherregen 'B' port
• M1 Mac Mini used for Roon control (and other stuff) powered off separate ac circuit to system >> EtherRegen 'A' port (I was using wifi but I think the ethernet connection may be better - wifi turned off)
• All cables in/out of the EtherRegen are generic (Jaycar ) Cat6A - 1m cable to both server and ultraRendu.

My experience is that the Etherregen provided improvements of a similar nature to adding the ultraRendu endpoint and adding a quality LPS to devices in the streaming chain. These improvements included better separation of instruments, better defined soundspace and a clarifying of natural timbre/texture of instruments. The upshot of these changes is more engaging music that draws you in with its greater presence and palpability. 

 

Quantifying the contribution of the Etherregen is a little tricky and very subjective. Adding a decent endpoint like the UltraRendu is more important IMO, as is adding a quality LPS to the ultraRendu. However adding the Etherregen is further 'icing on the cake' and it will be staying in my system.

[frednork]

Something else for you etherregenites to try.

 

I run 2 etherregens currently and have found a bit of a nice uptick in sq by the following configuration suggested by @AccuMagi who also helped me to get the configuration going as I seem to be all thumbs when it comes to configuring networks.

 

For this to work you will need to be running  a 2 box solution (server and endpoint)  and a server with (at least) 2 ethernet ports.

 

Normally we run the server and endpoint from the switch and let the router do the ip assignment and all data from server to endpoint goes through the switch. The idea with this tweak  is that if your server has 2 ethernet ports then you can use one to be connnected to the rest of the network and internet etc and we can  use the other to connect directly to the endpoint.  The server will bridge this connection and this has the advantage in that the way that connection is configured is on a different subnet to the rest of the network and means that it is isolated (in my poor understanding) from the rest of the network and the various unnecessary bits of data flying around it. This has been known for some time and i have tried to do it previously unsuccessfully and asked for help and gotten nowhere. The benefits touted by others with far more network knowledge than me are due to the lack of random network data hitting your nic the randomness of timing and subsequent processing required to deal with it can be a negative for SQ. So old news thus far but what if you put an ER between the server and renderer and even better an ER between the network and the server. This is what I did and I think its good and worth a shot for those that can.

 

so diagramatically its     

 

ethernet cable - ER 1  A -> B - E cable-> server nic1    -     server nic 2 -> ER 2 A->B -> Renderer

 

                         Server nic1 (internet)                    Server Nic2 (to endpoint)                                   endpoint

ip address    192.168.0.5                                                  192.168.1.2                                                        192.168.1.3

subnet           255.255.255.0                                            255.255.255.0                                                  255.255.255.0

gateway         192.168.0.1                                                   192.168.1.1                                                        192.168.1.1

 

so server nic1 could be autoconfigured by the router and that is the standard network specs but the 2 manually set ip's have a 1 rather than a 0 in the 3rd section and same for gateway.

 

Something to try on a rainy day

[dbastin]

18 minutes ago, frednork said:

ethernet cable - ER 1  A -> B - E cable-> server nic1    -     server nic 2 -> ER 2 A->B -> Renderer

 

I have also tried this approach some time ago, albeit without assigning IPs.

 

I dont mean to overshadow the suggestion, I support.  My journey summarised below takes the approach a few steps further ... might inspire in some way.

 

I found Gigafoil to be a bit better than ER and put ...

 

Router > Server > ER > Gigafoll > endpoint.

 

That was better than ...

 

Router > ER > Server Gigafoil > endpoint

 

I eventually had 2 x ER and 2 x Gigafoils between server and endpoint and it was always better to put the extra one between server and endpoint.

 

So I concluded an objective is isolation between server and endpoint, the more the better.

 

Then I explored what to do with the router. Tried a few different configs with that too.  And tried some fibre in there too.

 

Then I discovered Auralic Aries G1 has exceptional wifi that rivals wired withthe 4 x isolation things I had between server and endpoint.

 

A few more config experiments later I currently have ...

 

nbn > 20m Cat 5e > Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref > ER1 > fibre > EdgeRouter X SFP > Shunyata Sigma > Antipodes EX (2 ports) > JCat Signature > Gigafoil > Atmosphere X Ref > Wifi Access Point > ... wifi ... Aries G1.

 

ER1 is powered by high end cable, LPS and power conditioner and this is better than fibre from nbn > FMC > router (where FMC had lower quality ifi LPS and plug in conditioner).

 

It is messy but extremely satisfying, nevertheless I have run out of LPSs otherwise I'd be trying ER2 or Gigafoil 2 between EX and Gigafoil.

 

And I am looking seriously down the external clocks rabbit hole.   

 

What a journey!

[AccuTidal]

Mark, best sonic outcome is when using JCat network cards in both servers. Further refine can be done with tweaking “disable” all offload and others via network card properties/advance. 
 

Introduce audiophile switch in between is certainly improve sonic, however, lesser effect as opposed to using a better cable in between.  Dale, we can experience it at my place if you still keen. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by AccuMagi

[dbastin]

1 hour ago, AccuMagi said:

Introduce audiophile switch in between is certainly improve sonic, however, lesser effect as opposed to using a better cable in between.  Dale, we can experience it at my place if you still keen. 

Yes, let's test.

 

My experience is ER and Gigafoil with US$200 ish LPS have greater impact than US$1k cables (ie, about the same retail values), I assume because ER and Gigafoil have isolation in the form of MOAT and fibre respectively (perhaps many audiophile switches dont have isolation but rely on better clock, PSU, case/chassis etc). 

 

So a better cable may have greater impact than a switch without isolation.  Bottom line is its best to have both great cables and switch with isolation fed by good LPS, power cord and power conditioner.

[AccuTidal]

Absolutely agree if one can accomodate both when $$ not an issue. 

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by AccuMagi

[AccuTidal]

So I introduce the switch in between my ControlPC to AudioPC…

This is to reassure myself a benefit of the doubt….

It’s a typical Saturday morning that my 7 years old utilises this room for himself. It’s those few tracks that he has always listened to. Father and Son- Cat Steven, It’s too darn hot - Claire Martin……, Black Coffee….., 

 

Anyway.., I paused his enjoyment and inserted the switch in between…, and than told him to replay. What was never foreseen is he ran to me and said “It sounds pretty good Papa!!!” So I responded with a question, “sound better or worse before turned off?”… The boy replied” It sounds like the singer is here singing..!” 
Wow…, that’s gold! A kid tells you what he heard without layer of BS. 
Looks like a another gtg needs be hosting here again… 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by AccuMagi

[frednork]

On 09/06/2021 at 10:54 PM, dbastin said:

And I am looking seriously down the external clocks rabbit hole.   

Even the cheap clock is an improvement and a no brainer at that cost compared with the rest of your vast vast vast digital setup!!, Sadly power still has an impact so you might need more power supplies than you thought

[dbastin]

3 hours ago, AccuMagi said:

Wow…, that’s gold! A kid tells you what he heard without layer of BS. 
Looks like a another gtg needs be hosting here again… 

Yes that is more gold than Accuphase! 

 

Ask him how the singer sounds when there is 4 or more switches / isolators in between. He have a supernatural experience.

 

Then play him something natural with tremendous low end, like a crack of thunder, or a thunderous waterfall, or crashing waves.  But not something scary as he may have an accident in his pants.

 

Who needs DBT?  Lets invite a panel of kids.  Do brain scans and heart rate measures for a scientific basis for their responses.

 

3 hours ago, frednork said:

Sadly power still has an impact so you might need more power supplies than you thought

 

Yes, rationalising power supplies and expensive power cords is been getting a fair bit of my attention.  For now I have W4S PS1 which I will add modules to and achieve 4 outputs from 1 cord, 1 fuse and 2 power conditioner outlet, with 1 piece of real estate and its isolators.  With the high current modules and Y splitter DC cables, that could become 8 outputs.

 

The DC supply is getting as messy as all the ground wires.  Gives cable management a whole new perspective!

[brodricj]

On 09/06/2021 at 8:54 PM, dbastin said:

..And I am looking seriously down the external clocks rabbit hole.  

This clock discussion is fascinating and one that probably doesn't have an answer to whatever the question is. The digital guru on the PS forums is against external clocks, for a number of technically valid reasons. Which is also reflected in the design philosophy of some high-end DAC manufacturers such as MSB which don't offer an external clock option. Rather, they offer different internal clock options. And then you have companies like Esoteric and dCS who have external clocks as the foundation of their platform. Especially Esoteric where its top clock offering (G1X) will probably set you back $40K, plus if you go for their Mexcel clock cable there is another $3k+ each. Or pony up for a Shunyata Omega and you're probably looking at $5K each. Imagine that. $20K worth of cables hanging off the back of your $40K clock.

As far as I'm concerned, external clocks and vibration control devices come last on the shopping list. And I might put network switches in the list as well if I had some experience to rely on to say that. $40K is better spent on a speaker upgrade than a top spec clock. All these different rabbit holes you can end up seem to be a diversion which dilutes the experience of sitting down to enjoy your music collection without all these other extraneous thoughts spinning around inside your head.

[AccuTidal]

7 hours ago, frednork said:

Even the cheap clock is an improvement and a no brainer at that cost compared with the rest of your vast vast vast digital setup!!, Sadly power still has an impact so you might need more power supplies than you thought

I am thinking of doing this with Renolab switch. Abit of diy modification.
 

Any chance you could pm me the purchase link for your external clock? 

[dbastin]

1 hour ago, AccuMagi said:

Any chance you could pm me the purchase link for your external clock? 

There was some chatter on Audiopfile Style some time ago about a US$100 clock, effectively recycled after being disposed of from telecoms use.  However, the actual clock, and its performance was somewhat of a lucky dip.

 

AfterDark in Hong Kong seems to be doing the same thing, but I gather tests each clock first, measures its performance, grades them into categories and issues a certificate so you know what performance you're buying.  In other words, recycled with certainty about performance rather than lucky dip.

 

For DIY mods this seems suitable ..

 

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-clock-goc-module

 

In that rabbit hole is also clock cables.

 

These are not be mistaken for Master Clocks which are intended to synchronise clocks over several devices.  Ethernet does not synchronise, it is more like an international post distribution centre ...  receives data in packets, holds data (in buffer), checks packets, repackages, attachs new address labels, and sends out again. No Sync.  I gather the clock governs receiving, processing and sending.

[sudioz]

10 minutes ago, dbastin said:

There was some chatter on Audiopfile Style some time ago about a US$100 clock, effectively recycled after being disposed of from telecoms use.  However, the actual clock, and its performance was somewhat of a lucky dip.

 

AfterDark in Hong Kong seems to be doing the same thing, but I gather tests each clock first, measures its performance, grades them into categories and issues a certificate so you know what performance you're buying.  In other words, recycled with certainty about performance rather than lucky dip.

 

For DIY mods this seems suitable ..

 

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-clock-goc-module

 

In that rabbit hole is also clock cables.

 

These are not be mistaken for Master Clocks which are intended to synchronise clocks over several devices.  Ethernet does not synchronise, it is more like an international post distribution centre ...  receives data in packets, holds data (in buffer), checks packets, repackages, attachs new address labels, and sends out again. No Sync.  I gather the clock governs receiving, processing and sending.

Hi, I got one of those USD100 clocks from AliExpress ( it's called BT7GL or something like that). Still have the original eherregen power supply and the cheap switching power supply for external clock. It's been 4 months or so and I must say Tidal sounds much more analog with the harshness take n off. But it is definitely a rabbit hole so am planning to stop here rather than do the after dark clocks and the linear power supplies.

[brodricj]

16 minutes ago, dbastin said:

..These are not be mistaken for Master Clocks which are intended to synchronise clocks over several devices...

True, in general. But in the digital audio world there are word clocks and master clocks. Word clocks output the 44.1/48 kHz sampling frequency groups, and master clocks output a 10MHz reference.

[AccuTidal]

14 hours ago, brodricj said:

This clock discussion is fascinating and one that probably doesn't have an answer to whatever the question is. The digital guru on the PS forums is against external clocks, for a number of technically valid reasons. Which is also reflected in the design philosophy of some high-end DAC manufacturers such as MSB which don't offer an external clock option. Rather, they offer different internal clock options. And then you have companies like Esoteric and dCS who have external clocks as the foundation of their platform. Especially Esoteric where its top clock offering (G1X) will probably set you back $40K, plus if you go for their Mexcel clock cable there is another $3k+ each. Or pony up for a Shunyata Omega and you're probably looking at $5K each. Imagine that. $20K worth of cables hanging off the back of your $40K clock.

As far as I'm concerned, external clocks and vibration control devices come last on the shopping list. And I might put network switches in the list as well if I had some experience to rely on to say that. $40K is better spent on a speaker upgrade than a top spec clock. All these different rabbit holes you can end up seem to be a diversion which dilutes the experience of sitting down to enjoy your music collection without all these other extraneous thoughts spinning around inside your head.

Stop telling me to upgrade speakers at every thread I participate… (humour here) 

On a serious note - I agree that an investment into speakers  will certainly retain better values and probably is most significant improvement in an audio chain. However, setup synergies is equally importance. If we put things into perspective, a $40k upgrade to a set of speakers will need the equivalent investment within the electronics to perform as their best. That means, $40k for preamps, $40k for poweramps, $40k for source (digital or analogue). Oh cabling too…. Goshhhhh this is getting out off hands.. 

 

May be a trip to Tasso or loan his esoteric n-03t along with the diy server (ControlPC) that I helped him put together… May be then you can revisit your thoughts and give us an update on your adventures/perspective. 
 

Edited June 12, 2021 by AccuMagi

[Assisi]

11 hours ago, AccuMagi said:

However, setup synergies is equally importance

Very true,

Speakers can only reproduce the quality of signal that they are sent/receive from the rest of the system components.  There fore everything upstream from the speakers has to be at least equivalent in quality to the speakers.  An analogy is wine.  The wine maker must start with quality grapes and use best practice to produce a quality wine.  You cannot make a quality wine out of ordinary grapes no matter what you do.  You cannot have a quality outcome from quality speakers that receive low a quality signal from low quality components.  It is all about the overall sum of the parts and continual improvement.

John

[was_a]

Any EtherRegen users with a three-metre or more distance between EtherRegen and streamer / DAC?

 

Recommended distance is 'short' i.e. 1–2m. I'd be using a 3m ethernet cable though.

 

As a likely buyer I'd appreciate any feedback!

 

 

[dbastin]

Streamers typically output SPDIF (×3), USB, and HDMI.  

 

Toslink could be the least impacted by being 3m and most cost effective, followed by AES due to being designed for lengthy transmission.  I dont know enough about USB but I suspect that will be a more costly option.

 

If your DAC receives rendered audio data via ethernet, fibre will be most cost effective over 3m, for instance ...

 

Streamer > Fibre Media Convertor (FMC) > fibre > FMC 2 > ethernet > DAC.

 

FMC 2 could be a generic IT FMC, Sonore Optical Module, or EtherRegen.

 

The last ethernet cable from FMC 2 to DAC ought to be the best you can afford.  Or extremely short (like a few centrimetres).

[Snoopy8]

11 hours ago, was_a said:

Any EtherRegen users with a three-metre or more distance between EtherRegen and streamer / DAC?

 

Recommended distance is 'short' i.e. 1–2m. I'd be using a 3m ethernet cable though.

 

As a likely buyer I'd appreciate any feedback!

That recommendation is to minimise any chance of picking up additional noise.  As @dbastin mentioned, it should be as short as possible and the highest quality that you are prepared to pay.

 

For about $160, you can add a 3m fibre optic link and it improves SQ a little bit more.

https://cplonline.com.au/ubiquiti-er-x-sfp-edgerouter-x-6port-au.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwzruGBhBAEiwAUqMR8Dqan4xiyCfEBMGnZKD2JffP9Fv57ZA1JwsMgUSkPFW4Njur_lkHORoCGM4QAvD_BwE

https://www.fs.com/products/40193.html

https://www.fs.com/au/products/75327.html  need a pair

[was_a]

Thanks for the replies and fibre-cable suggestion.

 

My    ethernet-in   USB-out   streamer (Stack Audio Link II) is 3 metres away from a Netgear Nighthawk extender—which is in an adjacent room. I stream local files from a computer via ethernet into the Netgear and out to the streamer.

 

The Netgear extender receives wireless internet from a router elsewhere, and pipes ethernet to my computer.  So wireless broadcast is disabled (which benefits sound quality) but SSID broadcast is on. When I also turn off SSID broadcast the sound improves further.

 

Into this chain I recently inserted a basic LINKYS ethernet switch. The LINKYS receives a 3-metre Elecom CAT8 cable, and outputs a 2-metre Meicord Opal CAT6 cable to the streamer.

 

What an improvement in sound! Regardless of whether the Netgear's SSID broadcast is on or off.

 

Hence my interest in the EtherRegen.

 

 

NB: Netgear extender, streamer and LINKYS switch are all powered by separate linear supplies, including a Gieseler Kraftwerk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by was_a

[dbastin]

12 hours ago, was_a said:

a three-metre or more distance between EtherRegen and streamer / DAC

Oops, now that I am more than half awake, I realised I misread that last night.

 

your network ... > FMC > fibre + 2 x SFP modules > ER > very short of highest quality ethernet cable > Streamer

 

or EdgeRouter functioning as switch only, or if you're feeling adventurous Mikrotik CRS106-1C-5S)

 

31 minutes ago, was_a said:

Into this chain I recently inserted a basic LINKYS ethernet switch. The LINKYS receives a 3-metre Elecom CAT8 cable, and outputs a 2-metre Meicord Opal CAT6 cable to the streamer.

 

What an improvement in sound! Regardless of whether the Netgear's SSID broadcast is on or off.

 

Welcome to the rabbit warren of ethernet for audio.   Here's some hypotheses for your consideration:

• If you connect your hifi tot he network for any reason, you open the door to ethernet noise coming into your music. 
• Everything in the chain matters to some degree, even if you only stream from local drive and not the internet. 
• Firstly its about reducing the noise floor, then selecting a combination of cables etc that you like the sound of.

And some fundamentals ... 

• minimise noise getting into ethernet devices as per ...

1. ideally isolate each ethernet device from one another
2. use low noise power supplies and power conditioning
3. connect noise generating things (PCs etc) as upstream as possible

• Isolate from nbn noise 
• separate wifi from switches (ie. use wifi access points)
• ideally reduce noise within switches, FMCs etc
• minimise picking up noise along cabling (cable selection and routing)
• only connect hifi gear to ethernet if it needs to be
• filter/absorb what noise is left at the end

Try to enjoy the ethernet journey and its rewards as much as the music you listen to.

May the force be with you. 

[was_a]

Thanks again Dbastin. However I won't be going down that deep into the rabbit warren! My reasonably priced linear power supplies, and sensibly priced ethernet cables, are as far as I want to go!

 

So just an EtherRegen in place of the LINKYS switch will suffice, I reckon.

 

I do appreciate all the advice though!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by was_a

[Snoopy8]

3 minutes ago, was_a said:

Thanks again Dbastin. However I won't be going down that deep into the rabbit warren! My reasonably priced linear power supplies, and sensibly priced ethernet cables, are as far as I want to go!

 

So just an EtherRegen in place of the LINKYS switch will suffice, I reckon.

Correct, you do not need to follow @dbastin down his rabbit warrens! 

 

An etheregen with a good power supply is what most people do.