Silver vs Copper Interconnects

[Bill125812]

1 minute ago, muon* said:

That's your cable, I was referring to the ones Matt mentioned that are not from yourself.

Yes. Misleading for sure. Disappointing.  

[bob_m_54]

21 hours ago, muon* said:

Messiah Complex?

No thanks, I already have one...

[davewantsmoore]

On 27/09/2020 at 5:15 PM, Martykt said:

Though @Wimbo does make a fair point in that not everything can be measured like for example soundstage

This depends on whether you are talking about what is in the recording.... or what is in the equipment.

 

If it's the later... then it can be measured (especially in electric signals).    Practial listening testing of it (people in rooms with speakers) is hard.... and any quantification of it (like anything particularly complex), is not simple.

 

[Martykt]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

This depends on whether you are talking about what is in the recording.... or what is in the equipment.

 

If it's the later... then it can be measured (especially in electric signals).    Practial listening testing of it (people in rooms with speakers) is hard.... and any quantification of it (like anything particularly complex), is not simple.

 

Soundstage measurement along the x axis in the signal should be easy enough to measure as you just have to measure stereo separation with the caveat that processes like QSound may complicate things somewhat.

I am curious however how you would be able to accurately measure the soundstage along the z and y axis in the signal?

[davewantsmoore]

2 minutes ago, Martykt said:

I am curious however how you would be able to accurately measure the soundstage along the z and y axis in the signal?

Think about it

[qwerter]

13 hours ago, MattyW said:

I like to run different IC's in different parts of the sound chain. Each impart their own sound signature either to the benefit or detriment of the sound. Just mix and match until I get the result I want..... I've also changed the wiring inside of the speakers for my two main systems though. Duelund DCA16GA in my open baffles and I think Duelund solid core in my Oatlon W2-1000F or was it Mundorf @muon*? 

 

I guess to many peoples minds the ideal wiring shouldn't add any sound of it's own.... Strangely the most neutral cable sound quite boring to me so I like to mix it. I'm glad that different cables sound different to my ears as it allows those subtle tweaks to my system that can only be done with wiring. Cap changes in components have a greater impact again. Quite a few different levels of fine tuning to be done. Some will tweak power cables as well though even though the different is audible to me, it's so small that I just can't be bothered. Not at the costs involved anyway. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that almost perfectly unaltered sound comes across as boring to me.... I need to tweak it and I prefer to do that with cables as the change is more subtle than say, a more romantic sounding component such as a DAC or preamp. I want to be closer to the original content.... But not spot on it. I want that illusion of being at the performance.

 

I think for those looking for the most accurate, uncoloured sound possible you could do a lot worse than the "Robertson Audio Diamond series"..... Those who lean towards more soul in their music as I do want a little added colour which comes across as richness, tonality etc. Neither is right or wrong as it just goes towards each individuals preferences. I use the Robertson Audio Diamond interconnects between my passive preamp and my power amp. I want the sound as detailed and unaltered as possible there so just let through everything I have before it..... The sum of the source component, interconnects etc.

 

I know there's two camps with this. Not just the measurements vs subjective listening crowd, though also in terms of the actual sound preferred. The sound preferred is where some meaningful debate can be had though we do need to recognise that this just comes down to personal tastes (which tend to change over time anyway) so there's no right or wrong either way.

 

EDIT: I've come across some information regarding the Robertson cables for any potential buyers.... I do still find the Diamond series very good though it seems the Ruby range at least uses very cheap wiring internally. It seems another SNA member pulled apart a Robertson Ruby and found it uses Electus Distribution WB-1543 cable internally which can be sourced from Jaycar..... I've no issue with it being cheap cable from Jaycar however this is silver plated copper, so even though it sounds very nice, it is marketed as pure silver.... Fraudulent behaviour if accurate. I've no intention of pulling mine apart to find out and will continue to use them in the position I have them in. They sound great there. They don't sound like any other silver plated copper I've ever heard so I rather hope the information isn't accurate.

 

 

On the upside, I guess I've found the only silver plated copper wire I've enjoyed in any way. Every other silver plated copper cable I've tried has sounded quite unbalanced, brittle and bright in the top end. These are excellent. Still, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth though. That said, anyone looking for some very nice cables on a budget and can solder should maybe look at sourcing the WB-1534 direct from Jaycar and fitting some nice RCA connectors. At cost price, can't really be beat.

 

https://www.jaycar.com.au/pro-microphone-cable-sold-per-metre/p/WB1534

Warwick replied that he only uses the outside of the cable and the wire is actually solid core silver. I confirm that the wire inside is solid silver.

[Martykt]

6 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Think about it

I can't think of a way to accurately analyse the signal for height and depth in the soundstage so please enlighten us.

[MattyW]

30 minutes ago, qwerter said:

Warwick replied that he only uses the outside of the cable and the wire is actually solid core silver. I confirm that the wire inside is solid silver.

Ah, excellent.  It sounds like no silver plated copper I've ever heard. The closest thing I have to it in terms of sound is my Aurealis R1 Dragon pure silver Litz interconnects, though that is noticeably warmer. I do prefer the Litz though there's not that much in it.

 

Strangely I prefer the R1 Dragon mixed copper & silver strands over the pure silver.

 

So they're still an excellent value. I really like the Diamond between my passive pre and power amp, and use the bottom of the line Sapphire between passive pre and the power amp driving my woofers.

[muon*]

So he buys the jaycar cable then strips out the guts to use the sheath.

 

Hmm...

 

Edit: meh....I have no horse in this anyway as I'm not a prospect for that brand.

Edited September 28, 2020 by muon*

[Martykt]

51 minutes ago, muon* said:

So he buys the jaycar cable then strips out the guts to use the sheath.

 

Hmm...

 

Edit: meh....I have no horse in this anyway as I'm not a prospect for that brand.

I was thinking exactly the same thing...

 

Have you ever tried pulling the innards out of a heat extruded insulation cable...

 

I want to cut one of these cables up and have a look for myself now !!  

@MattyW are there any more photos of the Robertson cable and do you know if the SNA member still has it?

[MattyW]

No, I've no further details.  I'm not cutting mine up as I actually like how they sound though I'm definitely not a fan of the RCA connectors used. Sound wise you could do a lot worse...

 

Though yeah... The line about stripping the wire out and replacing it doesn't really ring true does it? 

 

Still,  it sounds great so I'm going to just focus on that. Still the best sounding cable I've come across at this price point irrespective of their makeup 

 

The Aurealis cables are better again,  and priced accordingly. All quality connectors and no compromises. You get what you pay for 

Edited September 28, 2020 by MattyW

[Martykt]

1 minute ago, MattyW said:

No, I've no further details.  I'm not cutting mine up as I actually like how they sound though I'm definitely not a fan of the RCA connectors used.

RCA connector upgrade possibly... ??  

[MattyW]

7 minutes ago, Martykt said:

RCA connector upgrade possibly... ??  

Maybe down the track.  They work fine for now.

[Martykt]

1 minute ago, MattyW said:

They work fine for now.

I don't know.... I don't like the idea of you possibly suffering from a catastrophic RCA failure....

My advice would be to get the issue addressed as soon as humanly possible !! 

[davewantsmoore]

9 hours ago, Martykt said:

I can't think of a way to accurately analyse the signal for height and depth in the soundstage so please enlighten us.

Electrical stereo signals are only 2 dimensional.....  spatial cues encoded in the audio, are in those 2 dimensions.     All you can do, is not damage what is encoded in the signal..... ie. avoid linear and non-linear distortion.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Electrical stereo signals are only 2 dimensional.....  spatial cues encoded in the audio, are in those 2 dimensions.     All you can do, is not damage what is encoded in the signal..... ie. avoid linear and non-linear distortion.

 

Yeah - and the earth is flat, too.

 

[GaryT]

From a mixing and mastering perspective, aspects like depth and height come from frequency and phase cues, these can be captured in a live recording with a stereo or binaural mic setup. Or they can be carefully shaped in the studio by controlling the frequency content and phasing of individual tracks to bring out the effect.

 

To make sounds come from outside of the width of the speakers you can push the sound there by controlling phase alignment between the channels. The extreme example of this is if you flip the phase of one speaker and play a simple test tone. that "pulling on your ear" feeling is part of what gives some recordings that "wider than the speakers" sound when used subtly and in conjunction with sub millisecond delays between channels (to simulate the width of your head) and a low pass filter (to simulate the HF attenuation of your head).

 

Depth and height are a bit more subconscious, but still can be simulated by a good engineer, or captured naturally with a good live recording. Depth is a combination of mono-ness, reverb control, and eq. louder, brighter, dryer sounds tend to be closer, combine that with a hard mono and you can make things sound like they are right in your head, some subtle stereo reverb can push it a little further back so a sound is right in front of you.  Height is more subconscious, being mostly a correlation of high frequencies being higher up, rich harmonic content being taller, etc. if you record a sound with a lot of high frequency reflections will be associated by your brain that with the sound be taller or coming from above you, conversely a sound with low frequency reflections will tend to sound like it is below you. these are subtle psychoacoustic effects that as far as I know aren't commonly used in studio. Real heigh effects from reflections can be captured with binaural microphone setups, but those effects only carry when listened to on headphones.

 

 

[Martykt]

19 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Think about it

 

9 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

All you can do, is not damage what is encoded in the signal..... ie. avoid linear and non-linear distortion.

And how do you interpret those linear and non-linear distortions for spatial cues as to properly analyse something to get accurate measurements you also need to be able to properly interpret them?

[Decky]

8 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Yeah - and the earth is flat, too.

 

Nope - earth is a wire. 

[Decky]

Here is a food for thought:

 

Two identically designed and constructed cables, where the only difference is in conductor material being silver or copper,  will have no audible or measurable effects on transmitted audio signals (analogue or digital). 

 

Caveat: Cable lengths up to 2m .     

Edited September 29, 2020 by Decky

[metal beat]

2 minutes ago, Decky said:

Here is a food for thought:

 

Two identically designed and constructed cables, where the only difference is in conductor material being silver or copper,  will have no audible or measurable effects on transmitted audio signals (analogue or digital). 

 

Caveat: Cable lengths up to 2m .     

 

The silver will let in 7% more.

[BLAH BLAH]

14 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

The silver will let in 7% more.

Jeez I hope so...

[John0001]

I'll take 7% more!

[aussievintage]

of what?

[muon*]

1 hour ago, Decky said:

Here is a food for thought:

 

Two identically designed and constructed cables, where the only difference is in conductor material being silver or copper,  will have no audible or measurable effects on transmitted audio signals (analogue or digital). 

 

Caveat: Cable lengths up to 2m .     

Deleted

 

Edit: Ah bugger it, It's easier just to increase the number in my list.

Edited September 29, 2020 by muon*