Show us your Phono Stages and Phono Cartridges

[evil c]

16 minutes ago, Ian McP said:

Hey Evil, interesting phono from Seth Ahfrika, pray tell us more.

regards Ian

I've reprinted my comments from the currently spinning thread : I  had it built last year by Schalk Halvenga from Valve Audio, he is a lovely guy from South Africa hand building his gear largely by himself. 

The design and build quality are superb, separate power supply unit module plus individual MM and MC modules - so ultimate in separation and ultra quiet too in between tracks.

But lot of dynamics and a very musical phono.

Plus fully balanced too.

It seems to excell with jazz and classical music especially. 

 

I took it over to @betty boop place last year and had a listen in his system with a few others.

We compared it with Al's Audio Research PH6 valve phono, and it was an interesting contest.

I thought the Whisper had a wider soundstage, but it was close between them and we couldn't really say which was preferred.

 

Edited January 4 by evil c

[Jakeyb77_Redux]

1 hour ago, evil c said:

Currently running the Valve Audio Whisper hybrid phono and sounding superb!

With this album playing, (Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio blues For K), scarily like a live performance in my room!,

 

Followed up with Mahler Symphony No.9 Karajan, man the dynamics are off the charts!

 

Good, drop your old one off 

[Jakeyb77_Redux]

On 21/11/2023 at 8:31 PM, Yamaha_man said:

A bit of grease on the bearing and giddy up!

Always a good start to the proceedings…… 

Edited January 4 by Jakeyb77_Redux

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, evil c said:

I've reprinted my comments from the currently spinning thread : I  had it built last year by Schalk Halvenga from Valve Audio, he is a lovely guy from South Africa hand building his gear largely by himself. 

The design and build quality are superb, separate power supply unit module plus individual MM and MC modules - so ultimate in separation and ultra quiet too in between tracks.

But lot of dynamics and a very musical phono.

Plus fully balanced too.

It seems to excell with jazz and classical music especially. 

 

I took it over to @betty boop place last year and had a listen in his system with a few others.

We compared it with Al's Audio Research PH6 valve phono, and it was an interesting contest.

I thought the Whisper had a wider soundstage, but it was close between them and we couldn't really say which was preferred.

 

 

definitely a very well made thing. and always good to mix in a bit of valves with phono i think  

 

good comparisons with my arc ph6 which have always loved, this provided a slightly different take on things  but not much in it i think. considering what anything arc costs these days the valve audio could provide a good alternative i think... and especially given the ability to customise to your system  

[Bass13]

2 hours ago, evil c said:

I took it over to @betty boop place last year and had a listen in his system with a few others.

We compared it with Al's Audio Research PH6 valve phono, and it was an interesting contest.

I thought the Whisper had a wider soundstage, but it was close between them and we couldn't really say which was preferred.

 

 

 

Gents....when you compared, did you find it was the same outcome, regardless of what type/gene of music played...?

If I knew, could of thrown mine into the mix as well....

Edited January 4 by Bass13

[betty boop]

16 minutes ago, Bass13 said:

Gents....when you compared, did you find it was the same outcome, regardless of what type/gene of music played...?

If I knew, could of thrown mine into the mix as well....

 

we can always do again for a bit of fun  and bring yours over. we did compare with a few types of music....with records between Clives and mine and including a very old recording aswell someone else brought along. Its stretching my memory but both did a pretty good job regardless... not surprised with the PH6 as i like it as a bit of an alrounder, that they can both handle a mix of genre of music and also older vs newer recordings nd do them well is a credit to both.

 

If there were any differences id say the the valve audio a bit more spritely with detail. and the PH6 a bit more laid back, which is fine by me though others will prefer the valve audio sounds i will think where looking for more life  i also think the valve audio has a better noise floor. a bit quieter.. the ARC PH6 just not as quiet ..though its noticiable only if have the volume up and not playing anything so not bothered me as such. the valve audio is also fully balanced i understand. while i have a fully balanced pre and power, my turntable only does single ended, however folks wanting to go balanced with phono can take advantage of balanced aspect of the valve audio as well

[scuzzii]

2 hours ago, evil c said:

I've reprinted my comments from the currently spinning thread : I  had it built last year by Schalk Halvenga from Valve Audio, he is a lovely guy from South Africa hand building his gear largely by himself. 

The design and build quality are superb, separate power supply unit module plus individual MM and MC modules - so ultimate in separation and ultra quiet too in between tracks.

But lot of dynamics and a very musical phono.

Plus fully balanced too.

It seems to excell with jazz and classical music especially. 

 

I took it over to @betty boop place last year and had a listen in his system with a few others.

We compared it with Al's Audio Research PH6 valve phono, and it was an interesting contest.

I thought the Whisper had a wider soundstage, but it was close between them and we couldn't really say which was preferred.

 

 

I think Greg has had dealings with him or purchased some of his gear. May have it wrong.

 

@Doppelganger

[evil c]

21 minutes ago, betty boop said:

.

If there were any differences id say the the valve audio a bit more spritely with detail. and the PH6 a bit more laid back, which is fine by me though others will prefer the valve audio sounds i will think where looking for more life  i also think the valve audio has a better noise floor. a bit quieter.. the ARC PH6 just not as quiet ..though its noticiable only if have the volume up and not playing anything so not bothered me as such. the valve audio is also fully balanced i understand. while i have a fully balanced pre and power, my turntable only does single ended, however folks wanting to go balanced with phono can take advantage of balanced aspect of the valve audio as well

Jeez al, nothing wrong with your memory at all, similar recollection now you've reminded me!

 

18 minutes ago, scuzzii said:

 

I think Greg has had dealings with him or purchased some of his gear. May have it wrong.

 

@Doppelganger

Yes correct John, Greg and @FranZAR were highly influential in me deciding to buy a Whisper. 

[Peter_F]

Never thought I'd spend this much on anything hifi related. I look forward to getting to know Lyra Kleos SL.    

[Mendes]

6 minutes ago, Peter_F said:

Never thought I'd spend this much on anything hifi related. I look forward to getting to know Lyra Kleos SL.    

Lovely Pete 

[andyr]

41 minutes ago, Peter_F said:

Never thought I'd spend this much on anything hifi related. I look forward to getting to know Lyra Kleos SL.    

 

 

Hopefully, your phono stage can deliver a suitable loading for it.

 

[rossb]

4 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Hopefully, your phono stage can deliver a suitable loading for it.

 

 

Andy, you obviously haven't read this article in a recent Stereophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/dispelling-myth-about-phono-cartridge-loading. Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere has been making similar comments on Audiogon for years. Both have suggested that loading is not as important as is believed.

Edited January 21 by rossb

[Warren M.]

9 minutes ago, rossb said:

 

Andy, you obviously haven't read this article in a recent Stereophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/dispelling-myth-about-phono-cartridge-loading. Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere has been making similar comments on Audiogon for yours. Both have suggested that loading is not as important as is believed.

Andy knows more about cartridge loading than Stereophile's poorly informed author will EVER know!

I can tell you from first hand experience with the Kleos on several phono stages, that, on particular phono stages, it sounds very different at 100 Ohms vs 800 Ohms! Not universally true. And my JLTi Grado LO Moving Iron sounds nearly dead at 100 Ohms and incredible at 23K where I have it right now on Joe Rasmussen's Solid Diamond phono preamp.

[colinm1]

must agree,the loading is .important ,how fiddly you wish to be is another thing .

[andyr]

53 minutes ago, rossb said:

Andy, you obviously haven't read this article in a recent Stereophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/dispelling-myth-about-phono-cartridge-loading. Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere has been making similar comments on Audiogon for yours. Both have suggested that loading is not as important as is believed.

 

Actually I have, Ross - as someone posted it on SNA a while ago.  

 

It is possible that various "measurement types" - who understand electrical circuits - first started to load carts with different resistor values to change their FR ... in order to ameliorate "HF ringing".

 

But my experience over the last 20 years (out of a 50yr habit of playing vinyl) ... is that loading affects two things which are:

a.  entirely unrelated to FR, and

b.  probably not measurable with the instruments we have at this point in time.

 

These are:

• the amount of 'air' that you can hear around the instruments, in the soundstage.
• and the tightness of the bass.

 

What I - and my customers - have heard is that:

• at a low loading ... the bass is tight - but the soundstage seems 'closed in'.
• as you increase the loading value ... the soundstage opens up; you hear more air around the instruments.
• as the loading rises ... the air increases - but at some stage, the bass starts to lose its tightness ... and becomes 'floppy'.
• the optimal loading is the highest value before the one that lost bass tightness.

 

Of course, there are many phono stages out there that don't offer much in the way of loading options - and even some which only offer a fixed 100 ohms.  So their owners never get to hear their carts sounding at their best.  

 

I first became aware of cart loading when I borrowed a jLTI (Mark II, I think) - Joe R and Allen Wright were the first, I think, to offer parallel input RCA sockets for load resistors, so people could experiment.

 

[TS23]

5 hours ago, rossb said:

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21 by TS23
Irrelevant to the thread and sick of trolls.

[rossb]

Ralph has commented on this issue many times on Audiogon.

 

For example:

 

Cartridge loading of low output moving coils is almost of no consequence unless the preamp is unstable or unhappy with ultrasonic or Radio Frequency bursts at its input.

If you find that loading is making a difference with your setup, its an indication that the preamp has stability problems. This is because the cartridge is entirely unaffected by load at audio frequencies. You hear a difference because the load resistance is detuning the resonant circuit created by the cartridge inductance and the cable capacitance. So if the preamp is unaffected by this the loading will have no effect.

 

Thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/phono-stage-w-automatic-load-impedanance/post?highlight=loading&postid=425904#425904

 

And:

 

Loading of cartridges is a poorly understood issue in the audiophile community. The loading issues for a MM are quite different from that of LOMC; the latter don't need any loading at all (the stock 47K input impedance of nearly all phono sections is fine) but MM cartridges are different because they have much higher inductance (which is why they also have more output). The higher inductance means that the loading directly affects them at audio frequencies whereas LOMC cartridge loading generally affects them at Radio Frequencies. As a result, to get the best out of MM its a good idea to load them correctly.

This loading has an effect on the cartridge as you are asking it to do more work. This means that the cantilever will be stiffer than the designer may have expected and so this can affect tracking.

If there is any advantage to LOMC cartridges, it is this latter point, as they need no loading at all.

(You may read quite a lot about loading LOMC cartridges, and if you do, here's the issue in a nutshell: the loading is there for the benefit of the phono section, which is unstable *if* the loading is a requirement. Other, stable, phono sections with the same cartridge won't need the loading to sound right.)

 

Thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-is-the-preferred-cartrige-mm-or-mc-and-why/post?highlight=loading&postid=1534560#1534560

 

For the record, I am not saying that I agree with either Ralph Karsten or the Stereophile article. I don't have the technical expertise to argue with either. My experience, like most, is that loading does make an audible difference, and I do hear changes in frequency response. But these views are interesting and I don't think the views of someone with Ralph's experience and expertise can be dismissed out of hand.

 

[aussievintage]

I don't think this stuff belongs here in a "Show us your..." thread.

Edited January 21 by aussievintage

[andyr]

17 minutes ago, rossb said:

Loading of cartridges is a poorly understood issue in the audiophile community. The loading issues for a MM are quite different from that of LOMC; the latter don't need any loading at all (the stock 47K input impedance of nearly all phono sections is fine) but MM cartridges are different because ...

 

What he said there is that "no loading" = loading of 47K, which is default on most MM phono stages.  Which agrees with Herr Lucaschek ("Mr Benz") - who offers an MC phono stage with 47k loading!  

 

But when I owned a Benz LP, I tried 47k - but found that while the soundstage was gloriously airy ... the bass on my Bob Marley records was too floppy.  Using 3300ohms kept just about all of the 'air' - yet retained tight bass.

 

And yes:

 

22 minutes ago, rossb said:

Loading of cartridges is a poorly understood issue in the audiophile community.

 

How many MC phono stages offer 47K for a LOMC?  The JLTi does ... my 'Muse' does - but I'm not aware of many (any?) others.    And then there are those phono stages which have a fixed 100 ohms!  Tsk Tsk!  

 

[Artnet]

21 minutes ago, andyr said:

How many MC phono stages offer 47K

 

Admittedly at a price and a different animal to the others you mention.

Incoming  Thöress  Phono - Enhancer does, well sort of ( 5 x MC inputs and 1 x MM, loading as follows 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000 / 47.000)  and will be trying one of those JLTi grado  carts also I hope. 

Still a few weeks away or 4 plus honeymoon period so nothing to show yet.

[andyr]

36 minutes ago, Artnet said:

Admittedly at a price and a different animal to the others you mention.

Incoming  Thöress  Phono - Enhancer does, well sort of ( 5 x MC inputs and 1 x MM, loading as follows 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000 / 47.000)  and will be trying one of those JLTi grado  carts also I hope. 

Still a few weeks away or 4 plus honeymoon period so nothing to show yet.

 

How very interesting, Stephen.  

 

I look forward to having a listen when you've set it up.  

 

[betty boop]

5 hours ago, rossb said:

Both have suggested that loading is not as important as is believed.

Probably depends on cart,

 

but with my Ortofon jubilee I can sit there with remote in hand for my arc phono stage and switch loading on the fly and yes it makes no difference folks … I kid you not ! So I just leave as I have done for years on the ortofon recommended and be happy and enjoy the music instead

[Artnet]

23 minutes ago, andyr said:

I look forward to having a listen when you've set it up.  

 

 

Absolutely in anticipation and a little work to do before it arrives.

[andyr]

2 hours ago, betty boop said:

Probably depends on cart,

 

Absoloootely!  

 

2 hours ago, betty boop said:

but with my Ortofon Jubilee I can sit there with remote in hand for my arc phono stage and switch loading on the fly and yes it makes no difference folks … I kid you not ! So I just leave as I have done for years on the ortofon recommended and be happy and enjoy the music instead

 

Lucky man.  

 

AIUI, the Ortofon Jubilee has a coil resistance of 5 ohms.

 

I note that its specs say "Recommended load is 10 ohms or much higher".  So there is no specific loading recommendation!

 

I don't know which ARC phono stage you have ... but what are the different loadings you have available?

 

Edited January 21 by andyr

[RockRolley]

I borrowed Andy’s Paris Aksa prototype head amp which has the ability to use plugs with different loadings and experimented with a wide range of loadings for my Benz Micro. I listened incredibly closely and used it into an ABBAS, EAR 834, Goldenage (DUC) and a Croft phono stage. 

The 834 and the Goldenage both have built in MC, (the GA, has a Lundhal SUT built in) so I also contrasted the Paris Akasa into the MM inputs on these stages against their built in MC stages. I also compared Andy’s head amp against a GA external Lundhal SUT into the variety of phono stages. As well as this, I contrasted these combinations against a Supratek MC phono stage with a variety of load options, and the good old Ifi Zen phono MC settings. I didn’t begin with a horse in Andy’s race, in fact, being a devout tubes man a wanted to like the SUTs better as this is often the preference for those using tubes. After extensive listening sessions (of which I took notes on the impacts of each different load setting), the ability to fine tune the loading on the Paris Aksa got the very best out of the cart in my system(s). The results to my ears became undeniable and I decided to go with Andy’s head amp option. Andy is currently building mine. I’m not saying that a SUT that has the ideal loading for a cart/rest of the system couldn’t be as great, but in my case, with very extensive listening, gear comparisons and initial bias towards SUTs, what I heard convinced me that load matching and the ability to fine tune this had a greater and more indispensable impact than other factors and got the best out of the cart.