To stream or not to stream This is the Question?

[Electrovoice Interface.]

Recently looked at purchasing a music streamer the demo was done using Roon I listened to a particular jazz song by Dudley Moore. By chance I had taken my cd copy with me after listening to the roon  version we decided to play my cd version it was chalk and cheese black or white..the Cd version was more dynamic and the musical clarity was unquestionable...So my question is. Was that a one of Or is digital streaming all what they say it is.Question does it come down to good internet connections the DACs the price you pay for the streamer I might point out the demonstration was done with high-end audio. Finally the Roon experience left me disappointed was hoping to sell my collection of CDs numbered in the thousands and go hi end streaming not so sure anymore..Was interested in the purchasing the lumin network player D2 ...Any feed back would be welcome on this subject.

[sir sanders zingmore]

One of the hard to control variables with this sort of comparison is whether the CD version was the same mastering as the streaming version. 

[Electrovoice Interface.]

Yes you are right how would you know? The information on the Roon version displayed of the particular song and Cd was exactly the same.Does Roon have obligation to only upload Hi End versions or the best copies available as you are paying a high premium to use there service yearly or a one of payment of $500 odd US dollars for life so I'm told... thanks for your input.

[Assisi]

3 minutes ago, Electrovoice Interface. said:

Does Roon have obligation to only upload Hi End versions or the best copies available as you are paying a high premium to use there service yearly or a one of payment of $500 odd US dollars for life so I'm told

I would expect that the file is coming via Roon "from" a  streaming service.  It is not about the responsibility of Roon as to the quality of the file.

John

[Electrovoice Interface.]

Sorry for my lack of knowledge regarding this topic and not being computer and electronic savvy So who is responsible for the quality of the music that you are purchasing? Do I take from this Roon is just the middle man in all of this or have I got it wrong

[sir sanders zingmore]

16 minutes ago, Assisi said:

I would expect that the file is coming via Roon "from" a  streaming service.  It is not about the responsibility of Roon as to the quality of the file.

John

That’s a very good point. Roon itself doesn’t provide content, you need a subscription to Tidal for that 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Sir Sanders Zingmore

[Electrovoice Interface.]

As Arnold Schwarzenegger once said

 

This is getting better by the minute

Thankyou for your input always learning.

[eman]

58 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

One of the hard to control variables with this sort of comparison is whether the CD version was the same mastering as the streaming version. 

This.

Spend time researching which CD to buy vs getting whatever you're given online stream.

 

I've hardly streamed much at all but have already found entirely wrong tracks inserted into album.

[rowbo]

Hi @Electrovoice Interface. - it took me long time to start streaming as i like buying CD's and the idea of paying  for 'access' rather than ownership was just a rort to pay artists less (IMHO). But eventually my love for my 'flavoured' playlists and also wanting to access music that i didn't already own & might want to buy won out.

But streaming via Tidal isn't easy either - why? Well you are quite right that Tidal (or any other streaming service) may have different versions, remastered versions or MQA versions (Tidals own remastering version) in the library and its hard to know what you are exactly listening to - sadly the the Tidal app does not help differentiate the different albums when searching. As the app doesn't differentiate I then have to login to Tidal via my laptop (as you can see the full names, versions and editions of albums etc) to build my library, playlists etc with the songs i want to hear. When comparing versions of albums/songs i already have some sound very different, some dont... 

My reason for going with Tidal was at the very least it was a CD (lossless) quality (as opposed to Spotify which is a lossy format). 

The $24pm fee is a little steep but thankfully as i was finishing a degree part-time i used the 'student' label and the Tidal fee was halved, the $12 i am saving really does help me pay for my uni fees haha :-/ 

 

Bottom line is - try the 30day free trial and see if it works for you. It might fill a hole, it might be a bit annoying. Up to you. 

Cheers,

Rowan

 

[Assisi]

6 hours ago, Electrovoice Interface. said:

Finally the Roon experience left me disappointed was hoping to sell my collection of CDs numbered in the thousands and go hi end streaming

As you already have many Cds maybe you should consider ripping them to create digital files.  You can store these files on a NAS or other devices.  Then set a ROON based playback system.  The quality of the playback will depend upon the quality of the system.  It will vary from okay through to superb.  I consider that my listening experience is towards the superb end of the spectrum

How many of your CDs do you actually listen to regularly through to none at all?  I have more digital files than I would be able to listen to for the rest of my life.  I mainly listen to 30 may be 40 and dabble with others from time to time. 

For me ROON is a database management tool (maybe not perfect) that enables me to explore my own collection and find music that I was not even aware of through links and the information provided by ROON.  There are other benefits such as some DSP if that interests you. 

ROON does not suit some people.  There are many many devotees however.  Remember if you pay a monthly sub for a streaming service it won’t be long before the total fees are equivalent to the price of the ROON license.  As well I understand that you can on sell your ROON license if after time you don’t want it any more.

John

[JukKluk2]

Greetings, Mr  @Electrovoice Interface.

Twenty years ago I would have vowed that my main listening medium was, and would forever remain, my turntable. A few years passed and I finally purchased my first real(ly good) CD player, and for a while there I thought that this was the duck's nuts and that with sound quality roughly equivalent (depending upon the variables in the software) to my turntable I self declared that the silver disc was for me. And then I bought an inexpensive Apple thingy (the name of which eludes me as I type - wireless music device - it'll come to me only after I have posted this). To get better sound from this I took advantage of its optical output and ran it to an old, cheap, Cambridge Audio Isoplat DAC, the music coming from a HDD via my router. This is where things got interesting.

Despite the cheapness of the DAC (100 pounds Sterling when bought from Richer Sounds in Reading, some years previously) it actually provided more detail and involvement that did my AU$6k Linn CD player. The most startling moment, among many, was the realisation that the background vocalists on Steely Dan's song, Showbiz Kids, were actually singing, "going to Lost Wages, Lost Wages", and NOT, "going to Las Vegas, Las Vegas" as I had previously thought for a few decades. Once you've heard it you can never un-hear it, ever. Thus started my move into file based music.

When the streaming services came along I didn't rush to replace my software, my LP's, my CD's or my (now) NAS. I still continue to use my NAS as my main listening source, occasionally spin a silver disc, and even more rarely play some vinyl. I have, after trying Spotify and Tidal, settled on Qobuz as my streaming service of choice as it combines the SQ of Tidal with a better library, though if Spotify ever go to CD/Hi-Rez quality sound (like Qobuz) I would be back to them in a flash. I find the streaming service to be an excellent hunting ground for new music and having found something that I like will continue to play it up until the CD arrives from the likes of Amazon or whoever, at which point it is ripped to the NAS and the disc joins the couple of thousand or more in the top shelf of the wardrobe of the room we call the office.

I also download Hi-Rez music files and store them on the NAS. The only drawback with these is the inability of my car player (an Alpine) to recognise anything above 16/44.1 on the USB sticks I plug into it.

That's been my journey of the past couple of decades. If it resonates with you then you might like to blaze your own trail.

 

As regards the Lumin D2, a mate of mine uses a Lumin and is extremely happy with it. I cannot give an opinion as he has been living in Abu Dhabi for the past few years and I haven't, either lived or visited, but I trust his opinion. Luckily for you, he writes for an on-line publication and he wrote this: https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/123-lumin-t1-network-player

Have a read, you may find it il-Lumin-ating (Yes, I am someone's Dad).

 

Keep us informed of your journey.

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by JukKluk2
spelling correction and grammatical realignment

[Electrovoice Interface.]

To JukKluk2

Thankyou for your in depth correspondence regarding this topic it is much appreciated I must admit I learn more here then I do reading Hi-Fi journalists take on things they basically never give anything a bad rap so you'll never get a true answer at least coming here talking to Hi-Fi enthusiasts you do get a better picture as what's going on in the big world of Hi-Fi I will keep you informed as to what I do in the future streaming does look like the future but I still like to do dabble in analogue the likes of turntables and reel to reels many thanks for your contribution once again staysafe

[Juzbear]

Streaming varies I quality, even within the same service, from superb to less than... not much different to other mediums I guess. The other day bought a new phono preamp and was listening to Jeff Buckley’s Grace, and thought to compare it to the streamed version, which seemed to have much more “air” in the high frequencies. Initially I thought it was the new phono, but then I put on a “new” 2nd hand Thin Lizzy album, Bad Reputation, and did the same comparison, and exactly the opposite happened, with the streamed album sounding dull. I suspect that Grace was a pretty average vinyl pressing, and Bad reputation was a poor digital version. I have since enjoyed music from both sources. I don’t think there is any one path to nirvana!

[08Boss302]

I have recently got into streaming, i dont expect it to take away my primary source (vinyl) nor CD's but its certainly a great way to find some new music and maybe just play stuff you hadnt thought of for years without needing to buy a copy for a once or twice listen.

 

I have a thread recently where i questioned Tidal V Spotify through my bluesound Node 2i.  I cannot really hear the difference between the two services, others miles definately vary but its splitting hairs to me and thus I am still in decision on which service to continue with.  I do not have roon set up but maybe down the line its possiblity.

 

regards to quality, i have done my own little test using my CD version and both services version.  The streaming services will normally advise if its a remaster so i searched for titles that matched my personal copy.  Dont get me wrong, i have no gadgets to measure compression etc etc, i did this by ear and did my best to ensure volumes were leveled, yes, hardly scientific, but it does represent the "normal" listening environment.  CD was bigger but the gap between the services and CD was not night and day and IMHO.  I dont plan on moving my CD's on so on those occassions where i want to enjoy one of my fav artists with a scotch, i'll play the vinyl or CD, but on other occassions where i just want to hear some tunes, the streamer is it.

 

FWIW, i am still deciding on which service, Spotify absolutely make a joke of Tidal with their usability and the way they tailor things to you, Tidal ram hip hop and the like down your throat and hardly tailor things to you.  The Tidal subscription I have is MQA/HiFi, but as i stated, the difference for me is not as big as i thought it would be so ultimately the usability may win out in my quest.

 

with regard to mastering, I have Grant Green idle moments on record, the version on Spotify is the 2002 remaster and the instruments are placed completely different, its wierd, but when checking in with tidal who have both the original recording and the remaster the differences are the same so be sure to ensure that all things are equal as I dont think the stream service would alter or remaster in anyway.

 

you can sign up a spotify premium acct for 99c a month for 3 months, make sure you go directly to settngs and change the volume normalisztion to off and streaming service to very high.  It does make a notable difference - Same with Tidal.  The rest is then up to you which you prefer to listen to and or work with.

 

Quobuz I think you need a VPN to get here, i dont understand that stuff enough so left it alone but I do hear/read its got a better interface that Tidal but not quite up with Spotify but does bring Tidals SQ as mentioned in the post further up the thread. 

 

Good luck with the decision, for me its worked out well, I use it at the gym, in the car and at home via the bluesound.  The wife and child also use it and love it. 

 

 

[Luc]

I'm into an intense session of vinyl at the moment and I've only given this thread a cursory glance buti'll be back tomorrow to make a more sensible post.

 

Spotify is brilliant for discovery, it's brilliant to have in your late model car with it's whizz bang connectivity and your phone is supplying all the input while you drive.

and so many other  aspects as well.

 

But when your in your home and you want to listen to music and you have vinyl/CD redbook/Streamer with Nas/BT function and DSD ect ect...you have to sit back and think just what it is your chasing after.

 

Ease of listening?(streamer via your ph/ipad mini wins out every time) if your kicking back with someone listening to your music. It's just so easy.

If your nerdy, then go Roon and Tidal, lot's of nerdy types love Roon and Tidal and all the configuring.

A good streamer though will bypass both of them I reckon.

 

*so glad I'm waiting till tomorrow to comment...

[JukKluk2]

10 minutes ago, Luc said:

*so glad I'm waiting till tomorrow to comment...

Hey @Luc, long time between drinks. I still like the way, even when you're saying very little, that you can still say a lot. Some of us are individually insufficiently nerdy to not bother with Roon, but nerdy enough to stream anyway.

[kukynas]

17 hours ago, Electrovoice Interface. said:

Recently looked at purchasing a music streamer the demo was done using Roon I listened to a particular jazz song by Dudley Moore. By chance I had taken my cd copy with me after listening to the roon  version we decided to play my cd version it was chalk and cheese black or white..the Cd version was more dynamic and the musical clarity was unquestionable...So my question is. Was that a one of Or is digital streaming all what they say it is.Question does it come down to good internet connections the DACs the price you pay for the streamer I might point out the demonstration was done with high-end audio. Finally the Roon experience left me disappointed was hoping to sell my collection of CDs numbered in the thousands and go hi end streaming not so sure anymore..Was interested in the purchasing the lumin network player D2 ...Any feed back would be welcome on this subject.

Couple of questions, have you been listening to the same DAC (streamer connected into CD player input? Or streamer had it’s own DAC or connected to external DAC? I can imagine slightly different sound in case of using CD player front end (digital input) but it shouldn’t be night and day unless there’s something wrong with it but in case streamer has been connected into different DAC or its own then no wonder they sounded differently

[Electrovoice Interface.]

To Kukynas thankyou for your reply the unit was a quite an expensive streamer with its own DACs and then we changed to a Hi End cd player for the purpose of the comparison test but your point is a good one Cheers 

[jamesrc]

16 hours ago, Luc said:

If your nerdy, then go Roon and Tidal, lot's of nerdy types love Roon and Tidal and all the configuring.

 

Haha.

 

I reckon I am about 4-5/10 nerdy, but have found the combo of Roon as a stream manager, my NAS with CD and Hi-res files , and Tidal, to be a great combo.  You can probably make it work if you are at about Nerd Factor 2/10.  Not really a challenge.

 

Tidal is head and shoulders above Spotify in dynamics and musical enjoyment. If I like something on Tidal, I will still buy it in CD or download a FLAC and store this on the NAS.  If I just schlepping around then Tidal is a good way to experiment and try stuff.  

 

If I really, really love the music then I will go all out to find a vinyl version as well.  Different horses etc

 

I admit there is some expense in all these things but when has that ever stopped a music lover/geek?

[vintagejapan]

Stream stream stream! If you can join Qobuz and have it streaming from the app you might be surprised on how good it sounds.
You must have a decent speed on your internet connection. Their 96/24 and 192/24 sound amazing. I had Tidal but Qobuz is superior.

[gonefishing999]

On 23/08/2019 at 8:08 AM, Electrovoice Interface. said:

jazz song by Dudley Moore

which cd was this?

On 23/08/2019 at 8:22 AM, Electrovoice Interface. said:

Yes you are right how would you know? The information on the Roon version displayed of the particular song and Cd was exactly the same.Does Roon have obligation to only upload Hi End versions or the best copies available as you are paying a high premium to use there service yearly or a one of payment of $500 odd US dollars for life so I'm told... thanks for your input.

Why do sacd's cost so much more than when most are copied from cd's . They are only in getting $$$ not so about hq.

Peter

[georgehifi]

On 23/08/2019 at 8:08 AM, Electrovoice Interface. said:

Finally the Roon experience left me disappointed was hoping to sell my collection of CDs numbered in the thousands and go hi end streaming not so sure anymore..

DON"T!!! I've had mates that have sold all their life time collection of CD's to finance going down the streaming/downloading path, and were so disappointed they almost necked themselves.

They've stopped now being audiophiles and listening to music seriously any more, they just use it now for background music or watch TV other times.

 

Just get a great CD Transport and Dac  and keep your thousands of CD's

 

Cheers George  

Edited September 2, 2019 by georgehifi

[Mickstuh]

I too would counsel against selling your CDs. For several reasons: you'll get a pittance (if you get anything at all); as an earlier post said, you can rip them, put them on a hard drive and stream them (amazing how great it is to pluck any song out of the thousands you own and tell your stereo to play it via your phone); and eventually pulling out a CD to read the liner notes as you play it will be an enjoyable novelty.

And I would encourage you to stream. In nearly all instance paying a bit more for CD or CDplus quality on Tidal is worth it. There are many players – Roon is but one. If you go down the streaming path, no need to stump up for Roon immediately. You can always do it later.

Of the various players I have used, the one I like the best, for quite a few different reasons, is the app that Auralic provides free with its hardware. I can play Tidal quite a few ways – my favourite is via Auralic's players. It even tells you on screen at a glance what the file type/rates are. Good luck with it all. 

[Mickstuh]

Writing that just prompted me to play some music. So I went to Tidal on my Auralic app. I was astonished to see a version of Holst's The Planets with  SACD  in the title. I am even more astonished that I went to the associated files they are listed as .dff – yes, DSD files. And they are now actually playing! This is news to me. I just did a quick Google and can not see anywhere that Tidal supports DSD streaming. As far as I know, no one does. But that's what my app says I'm listening to. The title, if anyone is keen, is Holst The Planets Lloyd-Jones [DSD SACD]. (Bit off topic, but hey...) 

[Mickstuh]

Silly me. The app tricked me again, reverting the search from Tidal to My Music. So no, no DSD Tidal. But DSD NAS streaming on playback within Auralic app. (Insert embarrassed emoji here.)