Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Posted February 10 These new fan-dangled gizmos that the kids are using to stream music confuses the heck out of me... For years I have been chasing high quality sound, but I have long suspected that I was barking up the wrong tree. Like most of the older folks on here I started with a CD player, some kind of AVR and speakers, as time went by I ventured down the path of separates to try step things up a notch. Over the decades I had pretty much stayed with that approach until one day about 13 years ago I bought a GroundSound DCN28 active crossover and discovered open baffle speakers. This was a definite improvement over the myriad of passive speaker I bought and sold, but still I was using the same Oppo based blu-ray player (even though I upgraded models) front end. I bought myself a cheap 4 bay NAS which I used for years to put all my songs on and make it convenient to play. I put together high end computers to try and use that as a media player because the Oppo in every model has a less than stellar Graphical User Interface. The computer thing just didn't work for me. Having to try and use a small wireless keyboard / mouse drove me nuts. About 1 - 2 years ago I bought a nVIDIA Shield TV Pro to give me a better way of navigating movies and music, and a new Synology 1821+ NAS. Which brings me to today... Running the Shield via HDMI into the Oppo into the GroundSound via digital coax I can't help but feel like I am leaving something on the table here. While talking to Bard last night we got discussing network streaming which led me to look at the Cambridge Audio MXN10. Now what I am trying to do is efficiently get the files off the Synology NAS via USB or NIC, go through some kind of user friendly player, into a digital out to go into the GroundSound. Question: Is there going to be an appreciable difference swapping from the current setup to the new one?
Snoopy8 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 48 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: Question: Is there going to be an appreciable difference swapping from the current setup to the new one? Very likely to be an improvement because you are not using HDMI into Oppo then coax. Just simplifying the music chain can improve things. Once you have it in your system, you are likely to want more.
Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 Well this was my thinking. Even though everything is staying in the digital domain that doesn't mean there isn't losses moving from one connection method to another. I guess my biggest concern / query is being that the Shield Pro isn't really designed to be a high end player and more of a general average persons player. I wasn't sure if the change was going to pick up player quality. Would be nice to have a player that buffers the whole song, but would probably need to spend more money on something like that.
Snoopy8 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Digital music can pick up noise from every piece of equipment in the music chain. There is no loss in the music chain because all the ones and zeros always get there. The Shield Pro was designed for movies, not music. HDMI is also for movies, but can be noisy for music. It is likely you will hear an improvement with the MXN10. I said "likely" because I do not have the MXN10 nor the Shield but have wide experience with other streamers and movie players. No need to worry about buffering from the NAS, while playing music.
Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 Thanks, you have put my mind at rest. Just speaking with Bard (who is now Gemini) about whether it still uses the internal DAC if it is digital in / digital out. I trust AI as far as I can boot it though. Also looking at some of the higher Cambridge Audio models to see if it is worth spending more money.
Snoopy8 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Any streamer/DAC will bypass the internal DAC if you are using the digital out. I wonder whether you will be better off with a (pure) streamer? Not sure of your budget but suggest looking for a new or used iFi Zen Stream, Neo Stream, Holo Red, Lumin U1/U2 Mini, Auralic Aries G1, Femto. Please note that there is nothing wrong with MXN10 (AXN10 won SNA affordable streamer 2024), but above may be better for pure streaming. Better because they can have better power supplies, internal clocks.
Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said: Any streamer/DAC will bypass the internal DAC if you are using the digital out. I wonder whether you will be better off with a (pure) streamer? Not sure of your budget but suggest looking for a new or used iFi Zen Stream, Neo Stream, Holo Red, Lumin U1/U2 Mini, Auralic Aries G1, Femto. Please note that there is nothing wrong with MXN10 (AXN10 won SNA affordable streamer 2024), but above may be better for pure streaming. Better because they can have better power supplies, internal clocks. Time to make a few decisions I guess. Currently I am feeding everything through my GroundSound DCN28 which act as a bit of a gateway for all technology / 8 * Burr Brown DACs. The GroundSound is going to limit any device I feed into it to the rates it has available. Which means no DSD. If I start spending serious money on a network streamer I am going to have to consider retiring the active crossover, or at least active in its current form. 1
Snoopy8 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Most streamers can convert DSD to PCM. If I assume a budget limit of $1K, you can get the iFi Zen Stream or Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra (on sale). This is a left field option, assuming you are using USB. Use a PC and get a USB Reclocker (highly recommended)
Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 24 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Most streamers can convert DSD to PCM. If I assume a budget limit of $1K, you can get the iFi Zen Stream or Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra (on sale). This is a left field option, assuming you are using USB. Use a PC and get a USB Reclocker (highly recommended) Budget is subject to returns. I could probably go as high as $2,000, but would rather spend $1000. Anything over $2000 would probably be met with very stiff opposition from she who shall be obeyed. I just checked the GroundSound website to check the specs, any signal fed into the GroundSound are going to be limited to these outputs. DCN28 – Manual www.groundsound.com Product of Denmark11 DCN28 Specifications Audio Performance 24-bit Resolution 96 kHz Sample Rate Signal to Noise Ratio better than 115 dB THD less than 0,01% Maximum input voltage (balanced) 2Vrms (optional 4Vrms internally configured) Input impedance (balanced) 10kΩ Input connectors Neutrik gold XLR 3-pol female (pin2 hot, pin3 cold, pin1 GND) Maximum output voltage (balanced) 6Vrms Output impedance (balanced) 200Ω Output connectors Neutrik gold XLR 3-pol male (pin2 hot, pin3 cold, pin1 GND) Digital Audio Interface Accepts PCM data format only Supports Sample Rates up to 216kHz Supports Data Resolution up to 24 bits THD + Noise less than 0,003% Dynamic Range 140 dB typical Transformer coupled coaxial input - RCA connector Coaxial input load impedance 75Ω Transformer coupled AES/EBU inputs – Neutrik gold XLR 3-pol female connector AES/EBU input load impedance 110Ω Optical TOS-link input Standard type Toshiba connector Soundcard input Supports sample rate 32kHz; 44,1kHz and 48kHz Supports 16 bits data word Standard driver - No driver installation is needed Fully isolated from the rest of the units electronics with Analog Device coupler USB-B male connector DSP internal IIR processing 76 bit internal resolution 96kHz sample rate Configured with 2 input processing blocks of 10 biquads each Configured with 8 output processing blocks of 20 biquads each Latency input- output approximately 1ms This basically means that any higher definition from the network streamer is going to be wiped out the moment it hits the GroundSound. For a while now I have been thinking about going back to passive just so I can get higher fidelity. So it is kind of one of those sh*t or get off the pot moments. I need make a decision before I buy anything. The main things I am looking for out of a streamer is being able to play songs off the NAS. Improve the sound quality and hopefully play some DSD files I have of favorite groups. Maybe play internet music, not important (not interested in streaming from the other services). Don't need multi room, don't need wireless access (nice but not necessary), don't need wireless speakers. I probably will need volume control if I get rid of the GroundSound which currently does volume.
Snoopy8 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 49 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: DSP internal IIR processing 76 bit internal resolution 96kHz sample rate .... For a while now I have been thinking about going back to passive just so I can get higher fidelity. I think you are fallen for the marketing of "higher fidelity" of 24/192 or 24/384 music. Firstly, there is not much music. Secondly, are you likely to hear it? I cannot pick between CD quality 16/44.1 and 24/96 in blind tests (and have repeated it several times). I suspect that people hearing a difference are because of different masters. DSD is different. Some DACs perform better with DSD, hence it sounds better. But DSP cannot be applied. I suspect your have forgotten the sound quality of active crossovers and now beguiled by marketing and hype of "high fidelity" music. For reference, I am using Kii Three's which are DSP active speakers. I also apply DSP in my DIY streamer. (DIY may be another option for you?). I have a large collection of ripped SACDs, with all DSD covered to PCM. 1
Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 42 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: I think you are fallen for the marketing of "higher fidelity" of 24/192 or 24/384 music. Firstly, there is not much music. Secondly, are you likely to hear it? I cannot pick between CD quality 16/44.1 and 24/96 in blind tests (and have repeated it several times). I suspect that people hearing a difference are because of different masters. DSD is different. Some DACs perform better with DSD, hence it sounds better. But DSP cannot be applied. I suspect your have forgotten the sound quality of active crossovers and now beguiled by marketing and hype of "high fidelity" music. For reference, I am using Kii Three's which are DSP active speakers. I also apply DSP in my DIY streamer. (DIY may be another option for you?). I have a large collection of ripped SACDs, with all DSD covered to PCM. I quite possibly have forgotten how good it sounds, and I am getting older so there may be a bit of that woven in there as well. I spoke with the manufacturer of the GroundSound many years ago asked why he didn't make it 192 kHz, and he said it wasn't necessary. I looked at your system hyperlinked in your signature and you have an unusual setup. I noticed you had an expensive USB reclocker, how much difference is this really going to make? Would want to be earth shattering for the money being asked.
frednork Posted February 10 Posted February 10 That reclocker is pretty heavy so if you drop it from a great height some earth would probably be shattered... 1
Silent Screamer Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 1 minute ago, frednork said: That reclocker is pretty heavy so if you drop it from a great height some earth would probably be shattered... At the very least some tiles... 1 1
Snoopy8 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 7 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: I spoke with the manufacturer of the GroundSound many years ago asked why he didn't make it 192 kHz, and he said it wasn't necessary. I agree... 7 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: I looked at your system hyperlinked in your signature and you have an unusual setup. I noticed you had an expensive USB reclocker, how much difference is this really going to make? Would want to be earth shattering for the money being asked. I can no longer listen without the (used) Phoenix USB Reclocker. The "Jenny Craig" option is the Gieseler Reinigen. At one sixth the price of a new Phoenix, I would get that if I started now. You can add a USB streamer and later add a USB Reclocker or use existing PC with USB Reclocker and later add a USB streamer. Whichever way, it will be much better than Oppo, Shield for music. I have used the Oppo 103, 203, Zidoo, Dune media players and they will not get near a USB based setup for music. I also play music from a Synology DS923.
frednork Posted February 11 Posted February 11 21 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: These new fan-dangled gizmos that the kids are using to stream music confuses the heck out of me... For years I have been chasing high quality sound, but I have long suspected that I was barking up the wrong tree. Like most of the older folks on here I started with a CD player, some kind of AVR and speakers, as time went by I ventured down the path of separates to try step things up a notch. Over the decades I had pretty much stayed with that approach until one day about 13 years ago I bought a GroundSound DCN28 active crossover and discovered open baffle speakers. This was a definite improvement over the myriad of passive speaker I bought and sold, but still I was using the same Oppo based blu-ray player (even though I upgraded models) front end. I bought myself a cheap 4 bay NAS which I used for years to put all my songs on and make it convenient to play. I put together high end computers to try and use that as a media player because the Oppo in every model has a less than stellar Graphical User Interface. The computer thing just didn't work for me. Having to try and use a small wireless keyboard / mouse drove me nuts. About 1 - 2 years ago I bought a nVIDIA Shield TV Pro to give me a better way of navigating movies and music, and a new Synology 1821+ NAS. Which brings me to today... Running the Shield via HDMI into the Oppo into the GroundSound via digital coax I can't help but feel like I am leaving something on the table here. While talking to Bard last night we got discussing network streaming which led me to look at the Cambridge Audio MXN10. Now what I am trying to do is efficiently get the files off the Synology NAS via USB or NIC, go through some kind of user friendly player, into a digital out to go into the GroundSound. Question: Is there going to be an appreciable difference swapping from the current setup to the new one? As I dropped a dumb comment on your thread I thought I better try and see if I can add some useful info. Had a good read of your first post. I am an open baffle brother from another mother. Would love to hear more about those. Regarding your quest. There are some questions you will need to ask yourself. What is the weakest link? What can I improve on within my budget. If these 2 answers converge then there is something to go with. Having said that from an external view the nvidia is likely a bottleneck in your setup. I havent heard it but tbh there are not many shortcuts to audio quality. that are not well documented or not cheap. Low /no cost things to try are can you go straight from the shield to the groundsound via usb. Does that sound any better? Do you have or can borrow a linear power supply you use to run the nvidia? if you do, try it and see if it improves it. If you dont not sure if its worth buying one as it is a long shot. Next is replacing that. The cambridge is probably ok but is a bit of a swiss army knife and likely compromised by that. It has a dac you cant use and its pretty inexpensive so compromises will have been made. there is also bluesound which has a great interface and others. SOTM, Auralic, Sonore are some other new / s/h options to explore that likely improve upon the cambridge. Having said that the Cambridge is probably still an improvement on the nvidia but I havent heard either however likely a small upgrade or sidegrade. If you have some diy capability you could go the same path that I and snoop went and setup your own server with a nuc or pc and dedicated power and digital connection. Good quality power and, isolation of digital connection are big issues that need to be sorted as noted by the Groundsound guy. If this is of interest ask some more questions and Snoop or I can give more detail. If that is not your cupatea then something like the SOTM sms200 ultra can work ok as a server with a few options in terms of the software used and pretty good quality. That can be had s/h for around the 1k mark last time I looked and allows you to change power supply and will respond to other improvements. It is not as slick as the bluesound but would say audio quality is a step up and i have owned this unit previously. Just depends on what is more important to you. Both are more than valid perspectives. Now, lets talk about the groundsound. I had a good look at the description on this unit and it looks really cool. All the things he talks about taking extra care of in this unit are spot on. It is not dissimilar to the deqx units but may be even better thought through at its time. When it was made it would have been awesome. The big question is just where it sits these days in what is available that is similar. A new DEQX is expensive. There arent a lot of other all in one box solutions that are at a better level. . Its a shame groundsound stopped making and upgrading those units. I think its something to keep in the back of your mind. Something like Jriver or Roon or HQplayer with a suitable multichannel dac can replace the groundsound if required. But mentioning that there is a halfway option where you may be able to polish the signal going to the Groundsound using a reclocker of some sort as Snoop has suggested but I think that is for later. Get the basics at a better level and then look at smaller improvements. Hope there are some things to consider in there. 1
Silent Screamer Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 52 minutes ago, frednork said: As I dropped a dumb comment on your thread I thought I better try and see if I can add some useful info. Had a good read of your first post. I am an open baffle brother from another mother. Would love to hear more about those. Regarding your quest. There are some questions you will need to ask yourself. What is the weakest link? What can I improve on within my budget. If these 2 answers converge then there is something to go with. Having said that from an external view the nvidia is likely a bottleneck in your setup. I havent heard it but tbh there are not many shortcuts to audio quality. that are not well documented or not cheap. Low /no cost things to try are can you go straight from the shield to the groundsound via usb. Does that sound any better? Do you have or can borrow a linear power supply you use to run the nvidia? if you do, try it and see if it improves it. If you dont not sure if its worth buying one as it is a long shot. Next is replacing that. The cambridge is probably ok but is a bit of a swiss army knife and likely compromised by that. It has a dac you cant use and its pretty inexpensive so compromises will have been made. there is also bluesound which has a great interface and others. SOTM, Auralic, Sonore are some other new / s/h options to explore that likely improve upon the cambridge. Having said that the Cambridge is probably still an improvement on the nvidia but I havent heard either however likely a small upgrade or sidegrade. If you have some diy capability you could go the same path that I and snoop went and setup your own server with a nuc or pc and dedicated power and digital connection. Good quality power and, isolation of digital connection are big issues that need to be sorted as noted by the Groundsound guy. If this is of interest ask some more questions and Snoop or I can give more detail. If that is not your cupatea then something like the SOTM sms200 ultra can work ok as a server with a few options in terms of the software used and pretty good quality. That can be had s/h for around the 1k mark last time I looked and allows you to change power supply and will respond to other improvements. It is not as slick as the bluesound but would say audio quality is a step up and i have owned this unit previously. Just depends on what is more important to you. Both are more than valid perspectives. Now, lets talk about the groundsound. I had a good look at the description on this unit and it looks really cool. All the things he talks about taking extra care of in this unit are spot on. It is not dissimilar to the deqx units but may be even better thought through at its time. When it was made it would have been awesome. The big question is just where it sits these days in what is available that is similar. A new DEQX is expensive. There arent a lot of other all in one box solutions that are at a better level. . Its a shame groundsound stopped making and upgrading those units. I think its something to keep in the back of your mind. Something like Jriver or Roon or HQplayer with a suitable multichannel dac can replace the groundsound if required. But mentioning that there is a halfway option where you may be able to polish the signal going to the Groundsound using a reclocker of some sort as Snoop has suggested but I think that is for later. Get the basics at a better level and then look at smaller improvements. Hope there are some things to consider in there. You raise some good points... There are always plenty of free (cheapish) things to fix before spending money and I have been thinking about a few of them. The first is my open baffle / no baffle 18" TC Sounds Pro 5100 drivers. I have been investigating some LONG (talking decade) over due speaker work. I made this two test baffles about 13 years ago and have never gotten around to building some finished speakers. FYI... Tweeters are RAAL 140-15 AM dipoles (also have 3 x RAAL 140-15 AM monopoles, and 4 x RAAL 70-10 AM monopoles in the cupboard waiting to be turned into Hi Fi surround sound system). Mids are ScanSpeak 12MU's, I bought 10 of them and 10 of the 18WU's. The test baffle on the right once housed four of the 18WU's. While the clean OB woofer sound is unmatched in control and clarity, it is giving a hell of a lot away to cancellation. So one way I can make the sound fuller is to add some low end punch by putting them in a U / H frame. I have also been looking at some cardioid designs. The TC Sounds have a QTS of .245 which is not an ideal speaker for OB, but it does have exceptional control even though the cone moves about 1mm. On the right in the photo you will see the silent PC that I built with a big dollar PSU (at low power it has no fan, it mostly uses passive cooling) and the Li-Lian case keeps it very quiet. It is currently being used as my Proxmox server. I originally built it as a media PC but got frustrated with the remote and wanted something a little more off the shelf. I didn't think the motherboard had USB audio (although I did upgrade the guts a year or so ago) and it does have a USB C audio connector, will have to take a photo and see if it can be used. 1
frednork Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) Those speakers look awesome and beautiful drivers to boot. It is fair to say improving the front end will scale with your speakers!! Something else you can throw into the mix is using DSP to correct the room speaker interaction. That might give you a way of using your 18s down to where you cannot anymore and use a good quality sub for the last 1/2 octave or so. If that is of interest then ask. Your silent PC is likely perfect to use as a high quality server/streamer with some small additions like a USB or other digital card. Again if that is of interest then ask, some more detail on what's in that PC would be good. Wish you were closer, would love to hear those OB's. Edited February 11 by frednork
Silent Screamer Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 (edited) 26 minutes ago, frednork said: Those speakers look awesome and beautiful drivers to boot. It is fair to say improving the front end will scale with your speakers!! Something else you can throw into the mix is using DSP to correct the room speaker interaction. That might give you a way of using your 18s down to where you cannot anymore and use a good quality sub for the last 1/2 octave or so. If that is of interest then ask. Your silent PC is likely perfect to use as a high quality server/streamer with some small additions like a USB or other digital card. Again if that is of interest then ask, some more detail on what's in that PC would be good. Wish you were closer, would love to hear those OB's. Agree there are enough dollars spent in drivers / crossover / amp (Halcro MC70) to sound better than good. I believe it has more potential in it. I just have to find a way to encourage it out. The GroundSound DCN28 has potential to do a lot of DSP work. I have plans to build numerous speakers in the coming months. I have a massive amp planned.... Among my stock of drivers I have a TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400, two 18" TC Sounds VMP passive radiators. This will be driven by a Crown IT-9000 HD amp I have waiting to go. They make a USB C to USB B cable would it be worth trying to set up something on the server as is? Edited February 11 by Silent Screamer
Snoopy8 Posted February 11 Posted February 11 35 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: On the right in the photo you will see the silent PC that I built with a big dollar PSU (at low power it has no fan, it mostly uses passive cooling) and the Li-Lian case keeps it very quiet. You had a silent PC but used a Shield for music ! That is your first free upgrade. Put in a good music OS, borrow a decent USB cable and see how it sounds.
frednork Posted February 11 Posted February 11 4 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: They make a USB C to USB B cable would it be worth trying to set up something on the server as is? If the power is sorted on the server then it could be better than the nvidia. Cheap to try. please list the server ( and power to it) details Speaker wise you have a lot going on
Silent Screamer Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: You had a silent PC but used a Shield for music ! That is your first free upgrade. Put in a good music OS, borrow a decent USB cable and see how it sounds. Yes I built it specifically for a media PC but the little keyboard would often drop out and be a pain to try and use. But considering I have Proxmox on it now running 24/7 for things like PiHole and Docker which are basically idling the PC. The 48GB of RAM in it is basically going to waste at the moment. I can put a music OS in a virtual machine and allocate a ton of resources if necessary. Do you have an OS / software in mind?
Snoopy8 Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: I can put a music OS in a virtual machine and allocate a ton of resources if necessary. Do you have an OS / software in mind? I am active user and help out on SnakeOil forum Try the latest version using Ubuntu 22.04 Server https://www.snakeoil-os.net/forums/Thread-Announcing-Snakeoil-Measurements-1-3-0?pid=7025#pid7025 Not sure whether you have used it, but suggest Logitech Media Server and Squeezelite. It has its own web page player. There is a bug in getting into the settings page (add :9000 to IP address). Also try MPD, and see whether you like it. Edited February 11 by Snoopy8 Typo
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