parrasaw Posted February 17 Posted February 17 1 hour ago, muon* said: Someone just had a different experience and stated it. In no way was it ridiculing his experience or making his experience less valid. Edit: you can check yourself a few pages back. Hello there. I read the comments on this thread before posting, and I didn't take any of the comments on this thread as ridiculing the thoughts about moods and music which @El Tel expressed in his 10:13PM post on the 15th. I gave a thumbs up to your follow up comment to @El Tel's earlier comment (and to several other similarly thoughtful comments on pages 6 and 7). I hesitated to comment earlier because it was getting off the OP's original post, but felt the need to do so after a bit more thought. I assumed that someone ridiculing what he had said, had done so elsewhere, and likely not anywhere on StereoNET. IF it DID occur somewhere else on StereoNET, then that person must be unaware of the research on music and mood, and if unaware, was not in a great position to be ridiculing @El Tel for stating his position (a position which is backed by quite a bit of research (which itself is not difficult to find). My final thoughts on the above.
aussievintage Posted February 17 Posted February 17 42 minutes ago, LHC said: This is correct. However if one subsequently sold the physical media on the second hand market then the continuing use of the digital copy becomes questionable. The media has very little value. Mine go in the local tip after I rip the data to storage. 1
NPC Posted February 17 Posted February 17 23 minutes ago, parrasaw said: Hello there. I read the comments on this thread before posting, and I didn't take any of the comments on this thread as ridiculing the thoughts about moods and music which @El Tel expressed in his 10:13PM post on the 15th. I gave a thumbs up to your follow up comment to @El Tel's earlier comment (and to several other similarly thoughtful comments on pages 6 and 7). I hesitated to comment earlier because it was getting off the OP's original post, but felt the need to do so after a bit more thought. I assumed that someone ridiculing what he had said, had done so elsewhere, and likely not anywhere on StereoNET. IF it DID occur somewhere else on StereoNET, then that person must be unaware of the research on music and mood, and if unaware, was not in a great position to be ridiculing @El Tel for stating his position (a position which is backed by quite a bit of research (which itself is not difficult to find). My final thoughts on the above. Don't sweat it, Paul. Nothing here is new and I don't take the occurrences personally. Water off this particular fat duck's back. The whole psychoacoustics piece is far more fascinating, nuanced and far-reaching than most of us realise or care to admit. The parallels with how I have perceived music on different days with different moods, and what I have gained in self-awareness as a consequence, is enough to tell me that things that defy scientific explanations (and that should not affect the experience) will, in fact, sometimes affect that perceived experience in others. We are all learning, and unlearning, together.
Assisi Posted February 17 Posted February 17 34 minutes ago, El Tel said: My entire point, John. Same with other aspects of the pursuit. I don't find my appreciation of scientific standards to be incongruent with what others experience. You do you. As you are aware you and I do not sing from the same hymn book at the moment. I am totally comfortable with that. My post was not in any way directed at you. Hopefully one day we will come to an amicable consensus on matters, I am sure. The outcome will be interesting for both us. My response was prompted by many posts over time and more so in the past in this Forum that have indicated that my experiences were not valid as they did not fit the science. It is all about our respective experiences. Mine are different to some others. There is one post in this thread that from my perspective and experience should be in Joke of the Day. John
Satanica Posted February 17 Posted February 17 20 minutes ago, El Tel said: The whole psychoacoustics piece is far more fascinating, nuanced and far-reaching than most of us realise or care to admit. The parallels with how I have perceived music on different days with different moods, and what I have gained in self-awareness as a consequence, is enough to tell me that things that defy scientific explanations (and that should not affect the experience) will, in fact, sometimes affect that perceived experience in others. I think there is plenty of room for a scientific explanation. Humans are not perfect both physically and mentally that both vary from day to day. Plus your observations are not actually based on well controlled variables. I say this to someone who I perceive to be well thought with a thick skin who is open to accepting reality no matter how pretty or ugly it might be; life is what it is.
NPC Posted February 17 Posted February 17 11 hours ago, Satanica said: I think there is plenty of room for a scientific explanation. Humans are not perfect both physically and mentally that both vary from day to day. Plus your observations are not actually based on well controlled variables. I say this to someone who I perceive to be well thought with a thick skin who is open to accepting reality no matter how pretty or ugly it might be; life is what it is. Psychoacoustics is a science in its own right, so I am in agreement with you there. I don't consider my observations regarding my experiences as sacrosanct and anyone is absolutely fine to question them or ridicule at will as we are in the subjective realm here; as you correctly observe, I have a fairly tough hide on these matters. I am happy to respond if I believe I am being misrepresented or misunderstood though. I am not sure I see my observations in this narrow field are less valid without controlled variables though. It's not an adventure in science and variables to go into a sandwich shop, for example, and ask for the corned beef and pickles only to take a bite and realise that today you now think you would have preferred the cheese, ham and tomato. That is how I think about my experiences when I realise I am not receptive to listening and whatever I am presented with would not sound great no matter what equipment or genre I was listening to. It's just that sometimes I realise I am not in the mood before heading to my system, and sometimes I might be 10 minutes into listening before suddenly being aware that I am not really enjoying it. Again, YMMV. 1
Satanica Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) 52 minutes ago, El Tel said: I am not sure I see my observations in this narrow field are less valid without controlled variables though. It's not an adventure in science and variables to go into a sandwich shop, for example, and ask for the corned beef and pickles only to take a bite and realise that today you now think you would have preferred the cheese, ham and tomato. I don't think think that example is comparable to audio quality, but rather music choices. YMMV. 52 minutes ago, El Tel said: It's just that sometimes I realise I am not in the mood before heading to my system, and sometimes I might be 10 minutes into listening before suddenly being aware that I am not really enjoying it. I find that my system sounds pretty much the same every day, other than when my ear or ear(s) go a bit funny that can be sinus issues or when having a cold virus. Ear issues can really muck things up, makes sense huh? Other than that, my system sounds the same (great to me) every day with very little to no variance. My speakers have the reputation of being one of the most technically advanced on the market and perhaps me knowing that just sets my mind at ease so I don't end up with any pre-listening anxiety, "Oh what will it sound like today?". What it sounds like, is virtually all on paper; there are practically no unknowns and those unknowns, again I think can create anxieties in an listener\owner. Edited February 17 by Satanica 2
NPC Posted February 18 Posted February 18 13 minutes ago, Satanica said: I don't think think that example is comparable to audio quality, but rather music choices. YMMV. I find that my system sounds pretty much the same every day, other than when my ear or ear(s) go a bit funny that can be sinus issues or when having a cold virus. Ear issues can really muck things up, makes sense huh? Other than that, my system sounds the same (great to me) every day with very little to no variance. My speakers have the reputation of being one of the most technically advanced on the market and perhaps me knowing that just sets my mind at ease so I don't end up with any pre-listening anxiety, "Oh what will it sound like today?". What it sounds like, is virtually all on paper; there are practically no unknowns and those unknowns, again I think can create anxieties in an listener\owner. Sure. I am ok with my example as I am not referring to my system not sounding great, but rather whether I am receptive to listening or not, and the associated experience if I push through and try to listen anyway. But I get your drift. I just think we are coming at this from slightly different vantage points. 2
parrasaw Posted February 18 Posted February 18 (edited) 17 hours ago, muon* said: Actually@parrasaw it was in a different thread, and I think it was because of my response which was just stating that my experience is different from his. As for myself my mood changes but the sound of my system does not change for me, just my mood. Just different people and experiences. I agree 100%. The sound of a system doesn't change from day to day (if the system remains unchanged and all components are working as designed etc), but one's listening experience MAY change from day to day, because our listening experience can (theoretically) be influenced by so many other factors other than just the system itself. Otherwise how/why can music change/affect a person's mood (the subject of many studies)? @El Tel didn't say anything about the sound of his system changing. I read his comment as stating that his thoughts about his "listening experience" had been ridiculed, and that is what I was responding to. Other than the sound produced by the system in the room, there are many other things which could potentially affect a person's listening experience from one day to the next, and that is what I believe @El Tel stated. I think that you and most people could easily understand where he was coming from (as did you, as one of your earlier comments indicated), but someone who disagreed (elsewhere) had apparently done so to the point where it was more than just a simple difference of opinion. As @El Tel followed up - it was not on this thread. So much for my last post being my "final thoughts" on the matter, lol. Edited February 18 by parrasaw 1
bob_m_54 Posted February 20 Posted February 20 On 18/02/2025 at 2:12 PM, parrasaw said: The sound of a system doesn't change from day to day (if the system remains unchanged and all components are working as designed etc) So now you're saying "burn in" isn't a thing?
parrasaw Posted February 20 Posted February 20 (edited) 16 hours ago, bob_m_54 said: So now you're saying "burn in" isn't a thing? Actually, I didn't comment on it at all ......... and won't. People whose knowledge of audio I greatly respect have their views. No doubt you have your view. Whatever view others have on this is for them to have - either way. And nothing to do with me. Edited February 20 by parrasaw 2
Assisi Posted February 22 Posted February 22 On 15/02/2025 at 10:13 PM, El Tel said: I have been ridiculed for suggesting that my listening experience is impacted by my mood and demeanour on a given day. Go figure. At least I can claim some elements of self-awareness. Yours and everyone else’s listening experience will vary and be impacted from time to time. It is all about you and more precisely your brain and its treatment of sensory information. The brain is constantly receiving sensory information from each of the 5 senses. Assuming all senses are working. Obviously in the unfortunate case of blindness the optical sense is not working. Then the auditory and touch senses will probably be enhanced. The brain is processing all the sensory information received in real time. The amount of information is 10megabits or more per second. The brain is unable to process all that sensory information to the highest level at the same. It gives priorities to each aspect of the sensory information. It focuses on what is most important at each moment. It is about attention in the moment. It is also important to note that the brain not only receives and processes sensory information. Brain information signals are a two-way street. In the case of hearing and then listening for example, it sends information back to the ears and all the associated bits and pieces. When you notice that your listening experience is not as you would expect, it would be interesting for you and anyone else to note what else is happening. What is your brain giving most attention to and therefore giving less to the auditory sensory aspects. Our respective brains and our individual learning skills are incredible. The above is a summary of my very superficial understanding of a very complex topic. It is very worthy of thread. I would like to know more from posters who have knowledge of the topic. John 1
MattyW Posted February 22 Posted February 22 My enjoyment of my system is quite variable often being influenced by mood, various health conditions, ambient noise levels and I believe humidity plus probably any number of other things I'm not aware of..... And I perceive differences in sonics and enjoyment. Whether real or not matters little, just that it makes a difference to me in that moment. Course we're all different so what affects me may not others and others may be sensitive to things I am not. Just the way it goes I guess. 3
Almaz Posted February 22 Posted February 22 (edited) Yes, music can be good for mental health. It can help with a range of mental health conditions, including anxiety, depression, and low self-confidence.Music can also help with social connection and support. How music can help mental health Reduce anxiety: Music can help reduce anxiety and blood pressure. Improve mood: Music can help regulate mood and improve sleep quality. Improve memory: Music can help improve mental alertness and memory. Improve social skills: Music therapy can help improve communication, speaking, and language skills. Improve self-confidence: Music therapy can help strengthen self-confidence. Improve coping skills: Music therapy can help develop healthy coping and problem-solving skills. Improve quality of life: Music-based interventions can improve quality of life. Improve social connection: Music can help foster social connection and support. Music therapy Music therapy can be an effective intervention for mental health. It can help improve motivation, management of daily activities, and quality of life. Types of music Different types of music can have different benefits. For example, classical music can help focus the mind, while EDM can help sharpen focus while studying. These are not my words, but I thought them very relevant. I myself have an incurable illness which robes my body of many things. I could wallow in my pain, instead I find it necessary to help others that are in a far worse situation than mine. This helps me to keep things in perspective. When the pain gets intolerable I go to the music room. I find my mind drifting in and out of the moment. This helps me immensely. Not sure where I would be today without music. Apologies for bringing my personal life into the thread. Edited February 22 by Almaz 6 1
Assisi Posted February 22 Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Almaz said: When the pain gets intolerable I go to the music room. In the context of what you have mentioned above there is now a whole serious study related to the benefits of medicine with music for a significant range of health matters from physical to mental. The matters to mention a few can be pain, stress, dementia, and autism. Music has powerful healing qualities and attributes. John 3
Grimmie Posted March 2 Posted March 2 (edited) On 17/02/2025 at 12:37 AM, rockeater said: This is very true. and so is this And also this as far as music industry is concerned. No longer do they have print any CDs or records, their covers or spend money on promoting the artists with the exception of the big stars. To the artists however is not such a great deal. If the artist prints 1000 CDs and sell them at their gigs for $20 each, they would have made a huge sum of $20,000. Achieving 100,000 hits at the streaming service, would give them only few hundred dollars. So streaming for them is merely a way of advertising their tours, which most often they have to organise and promote themselves. Rather then being artists, they now also have to be businessmen. Music industry have outsourced their work to artists and they are there only to collect the cream from the big stars. Sadly the same thing happens to the touring business which gets more and more concentrated, so does the ticketing, and on top of that the number of venues available to independent artists is also diminishing. There is a very good video on this at Michael West Media https://michaelwest.com.au/algorithms-major-labels-bad-for-australian-music/ The video is at the bottom of the page, but the article is also worth reading ans also this: https://michaelwest.com.au/australian-music-loses-out-in-shift-to-streaming-ticketing-monopoly-struggling-venues/ Most of us do not realise that this is happening. all very true Roman, and the music industry the world over is being kidnapped by big industry, same as most things in our lives. My daughter works as a recording engineer / producer among other aspects of the industry and despairs at the state of it all. On a seperate note Roman, I've been trying to contact you via PM but can't seem to get through. Is this because you're not accepting PM's anymore. (PM me if you wish or give me a call, you should still have my number.) Edited March 2 by Grimmie
billstevenson Posted March 9 Posted March 9 First, in the interest of full disclosure, I am deeply into vinyl have over 12,000 records, started collecting in the early 1960s. My analog playback system in my primary represents something on the order of $100K US. I also have a substantial investment in CDs and at this time it is growing. I have two very high end CD players, a Luxman D-10X and a Marantz SA10, both of which, contrary to statements made in this thread, have proprietary well built modern transports. There are other very excellent cd players being built today and for good reason. Last year sales of cds went up for the first time in years. They out sell vinyl by a substantial margin and there is a place in the market for the format. A PCM cd AKA Redbook can rival the sound of vinyl. I am telling you this from personal observation. It all has to do with the individual recording, how it was mastered and so on. So it all depends, but at their best Redbook sounds damn good. In my experience, which is limited, the best streaming, which is HiRes, might at best match that level, but not consistently and that has to do with line losses and so. DSD and SACD can exceed Redbook or vinyl, but it does not consistently do so, although it generally does. The take away is not to take anything for granted. So with that brief overview here is my suggestion. For convenience streaming wins by a landslide. If you want to hold the metadata in your hands, start a collection and that sort of thing, taking into account the out of control costs for vinyl (much less tape) buy a good cd transport that can handle all formats. Focus primarily on Redbook which at the moment at least offers some screaming bargains. 9
rockeater Posted March 9 Posted March 9 I pretty much agree with most what Bill's post above is saying. Maybe with the exception of: 4 hours ago, billstevenson said: I have two very high end CD players, a Luxman D-10X and a Marantz SA10, both of which, contrary to statements made in this thread, have proprietary well built modern transports. Whereas indeed, they are proprietary and modern mechanisms SACD mechanisms, they are nothing special. Marantz SA-10 uses SACDM-3 pictured below. It looks like any other DVD mechanism that has been encased in sheet-metal and placed on aluminium stand. This is one of only two images I could find, which says that it indeed is reasonably good, because it hasn't caused neither owners nor repairers any major grief. It does look like it has brush-less motor but so do countless other Sony mechanisms. Standard plastic gears, standard drop down mechanism. Ordinary DVD clamp puck suspended on a sheet of metal. The Luxman uses what looks like a standard DVD mech encased in metal box with a aluminium plate on top. This is the only image of it which I could find, which - again - says that it is reasonably reliable. Luxman in its blurb does not claim anything more about it: " LxDTM-i – LUXMAN original Disc Transport Mechanism (improved). We enclose the drive in 8 mm thick aluminum sides that extend to the front and rear panels, plus a 5 mm thick steel top plate". Does that make either of these remarkable? Not to me. At least with VRDS mechanisms from TEAC / Esoteric, they carry on a tradition and go to some trouble to make them look exceptional. For SACD playback there really is no choice but to have one of these, but for CD playback, there are countless older units with superior mechanics that can be used as transports or even Red Book players. 1 1
billstevenson Posted March 10 Posted March 10 Roman, Thank you for commenting on my post. We seem mostly to be in agreement. I, too, have a high opinion of the Teac transport. What you have confirmed as well, is that both the Luxman and the Marantz transports, which have been on the market now 7 or 8 years are proving to be quite reliable. That you are not impressed by them is not all that important in the total scheme of things. I am sure you can agree. The pertinent point, relative to the OP's question, is that there are viable options available. I know there are other cd options available as well, and that this bodes well for audiophiles interested in both good sound and collecting physical media. The CD is making a comeback and that is a healthy trend. Take care. 5
rantan Posted March 10 Posted March 10 3 minutes ago, billstevenson said: The CD is making a comeback and that is a healthy trend. Amen 3
BLAH BLAH Posted March 10 Posted March 10 On 18/02/2025 at 2:12 PM, parrasaw said: The sound of a system doesn't change from day to day (if the system remains unchanged and all components are working as designed etc), You would think so...but what of electricity fluctuations and noise... 1
parrasaw Posted March 10 Posted March 10 2 hours ago, BLAH BLAH said: You would think so...but what of electricity fluctuations and noise... Fair point - I covered my backside a bit with "If the system remains unchanged and all of the components are working as designed etc", but yes, outside factors may certainly affect a system. One of the reasons why I and many others use component isolators etc. We have certainly diverted from the OP's original question haven't we.
rockeater Posted March 10 Posted March 10 3 hours ago, BLAH BLAH said: On 18/02/2025 at 11:12 AM, parrasaw said: The sound of a system doesn't change from day to day (if the system remains unchanged and all components are working as designed etc), You would think so...but what of electricity fluctuations and noise... Electricity fluctuation should be taken care of by a power supply. It is there not only to supply power, but also to stabilise it and clean from the noise. This might not be the case with entry model gear, but any decent component will have this covered. I remember in the 80s I had this integrated Yamaha 100W p/ch amp which would sent a slam through the speakers whenever someone in the house turned lights on or off. Not to mention what was happening when washing machine was on. I installed filtering capacitors in all light switches and power points. Then I bought a better amp (Perreaux PMF-1850) and it no longer was an issue, even after removing the capacitors. 1 1
Guest Posted March 10 Posted March 10 4 hours ago, BLAH BLAH said: You would think so...but what of electricity fluctuations and noise... As always, if your components are sensitive to variations and common mode distortion (which is what I think you all are talking about with this ‘noise’ term then you should send them back to the retailer/manufacturer, demand a refund, and ask them why they designed their components with such low quality power supplies.
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