SS Class A and Valve/Tube Amplifiers

[Ratbob]

Having read with interest members posts in the recent topic “A great time for tubes” it got me wondering.

In general terms, do Class A amps, say like a Luxman 590axii, have a similar sound signature to equal quality valve/tube amps? 

[Colin Rutter]

Having built many SS and Tube amps of varying configurations all I can say is if it is built properly with a decent power supply etc.etc. They all sound different but all sound good.

I remember having a relaxing session with the Chinese fellow who designs Melody tube amps, comparing SS class A and Tube AB, at the end we decided "they both sound good" and enjoyed the music.

Time and time again on these fora I read ".....it blew the other thing away...." sic.  This is absolute rubbish if both were quality items.

It just confirms that when we have paid for something it has to be so much better than what we had otherwise we don't feel good.

 

 

[doogie44]

Any class of amplification can sound excellent, done right. El cheapo amplifiers rarely sound good. Far more to the musical point is:

 

1. whether the amp-speaker combination is a felicitous/appropriate one?

2. whether the system-room interface works well?

3. whether the source equipment is married well with the rest of the system?

4. what kind of music you like most?

5. what kind of amplification you favour as a result of listening (e.g. single-ended a la Nelson Pass; triode vs pentode; GAN Fets in Class D, and so on)?

6. what kind of speaker technology appeals most?

 

Can I choose/prefer a Shindo Class AB, or an Airtight Class AB, or a Pass Labs AB? I probably could but it means only what I prefer.

 

There's plenty of room for opinions because that's all they are. There is no real agreement about specific technologies or application, nor should there be. By analogy, there are many different kinds of wine and people who appreciate them...see where I'm heading?

 

[Ratbob]

2 hours ago, doogie44 said:

By analogy, there are many different kinds of wine and people who appreciate them...see where I'm heading?

Thanks David, but no, I’m not asking here about what is best or preferred. No single correct answer for that one.

I agree with all the variables you mentioned, but if someone who hasn’t tried wine asks my opinion probably the best I can say that Shiraz is dry,  Moselle sweet, Champagne fizzy etc and while they will ultimately find their own preference, each type has a generally accepted signature. 

Unfortunately I can not audition a Class A unit so I’m stuck with buy before try, hence the general nature of the question. Cheers

[doogie44]

22 hours ago, Ratbob said:

In general terms, do Class A amps, say like a Luxman 590axii, have a similar sound signature to equal quality valve/tube amps? 

OK, epic fail on the wine analogy... Is it possible that you're looking for an objective take on a subjective reality?

 

Perhaps the better answer to your question is NO, not until you get to the very expensive and wonderful upper echelon models of the best manufacturers, e.g. VAC, Audio Research and Air Tight, Constellation, Pass Labs and top class GanFet amplifiers, where experts find it hard to distinguish between the stereotypical sounds of SS and tube topologies (as there seems to be a beneficial merging of the qualities of each) while they experience the sound. In other words here is where the differences are minimal (this from my reading, not actual experience).

 

PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS

 

Until then there is considerable difference between the sonic signature of the typical Class A SS amps and typical tube amps generally--in my opinion. This is also the essence of the 'which is better' debate and slanging match you can find on any audio forum. I love stereotypes --unless they stop you thinking analytically.

 

In what I call the lower and middle range of amplifiers I have always liked the sound of tubes, regardless of Class, (although single-ended triodes by definition are Class A). I find tubes more 'musical' to me. But I would never pronounce on the choices of others who may not have my influences or biases. I have owned and liked SS amps; none of these, however, has ever given me goosebumps. Tube amps do this regularly. The main reason why I love them.

 

Therefore I propose the 'Goosebump Test' instead of your words 'similar sound signature'. 

 

Somehow I have the nagging feeling that you might find my answer unsatisfactory?

 

Just my 2c worth

[Colin Rutter]

7 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

OK, epic fail on the wine analogy... Is it possible that you're looking for an objective take on a subjective reality?

 

Perhaps the better answer to your question is NO, not until you get to the very expensive and wonderful upper echelon models of the best manufacturers, e.g. VAC, Audio Research and Air Tight, Constellation, Pass Labs and top class GanFet amplifiers, where experts find it hard to distinguish between the stereotypical sounds of SS and tube topologies (as there seems to be a beneficial merging of the qualities of each) while they experience the sound. In other words here is where the differences are minimal (this from my reading, not actual experience).

 

PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS

 

Until then there is considerable difference between the sonic signature of the typical Class A SS amps and typical tube amps generally--in my opinion. This is also the essence of the 'which is better' debate and slanging match you can find on any audio forum. I love stereotypes --unless they stop you thinking analytically.

 

In what I call the lower and middle range of amplifiers I have always liked the sound of tubes, regardless of Class, (although single-ended triodes by definition are Class A). I find tubes more 'musical' to me. But I would never pronounce on the choices of others who may not have my influences or biases. I have owned and liked SS amps; none of these, however, has ever given me goosebumps. Tube amps do this regularly. The main reason why I love them.

 

Therefore I propose the 'Goosebump Test' instead of your words 'similar sound signature'. 

 

Somehow I have the nagging feeling that you might find my answer unsatisfactory?

 

Just my 2c worth

I like what you say.

Any decent amp has to have a"fat" power supply I don't care what topology the output is.

Cheaper amps have on the edge power supplies and can never deliver reasonable amounts of power.

You might have a 1000 bhp internal combustion motor but if the fuel system can't deliver the fuel its just a boat anchor.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Colin Rutter

[Ratbob]

6 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

Therefore I propose the 'Goosebump Test' instead of your words 'similar sound signature'. 

Yes that’d be the best test. 

Sadly none in SA to listen to.

[rantan]

2 minutes ago, Ratbob said:

Yes that’d be the best test. 

Sadly none in SA to listen to.

You can audition a Luxman Class A amplifier at Challenge Hi Fi on Prospect Rd.

If you are looking a tube amplifiers contact @Grizzly. He is the dealer for Line Magnetic and based in Hahndorf and I am sure he could arrange an audition

[Ratbob]

7 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said:

You might have a 1000 bhp internal combustion motor but if the fuel system can't deliver the fuel its just a boat anchor.

Definitely, I see the Bugatti Veyron flat out is said to empty it’s 100 ltr tank in 20 minutes. 

[Ratbob]

2 minutes ago, rantan said:

You can audition a Luxman Class A amplifier at Challenge Hi Fi on Prospect Rd.

If you are looking a tube amplifiers contact @Grizzly. He is the dealer for Line Magnetic and based in Hahndorf and I am sure he could arrange an audition

Thank you. Unfortunately Steve doesn’t have any Luxman kit for audition. 

Grizzly has been in touch on the tube front, friendly helpful fella. (As is Steve)

Cheers

[rantan]

17 minutes ago, Ratbob said:

Thank you. Unfortunately Steve doesn’t have any Luxman kit for audition. 

That is unfortunate.

Perhaps he is keeping stock levels fairly low in these uncertain times. I actually purchased my Luxman from Steve a few years back and he allowed me to try it at home in my system, which made the choice very easy.

[Colin Rutter]

40 minutes ago, Ratbob said:

Definitely, I see the Bugatti Veyron flat out is said to empty it’s 100 ltr tank in 20 minutes. 

But what a great 20 minutes

[Antipodean Brad]

"But what a great 20 minutes".

 

How could you tell?  You couldn't see anything going past at that speed, and the adrenalin would make you blind and crazy.

[Batty]

I have a Class A power amp in my setup if you are in the Parafield Gardens area anytime you are welcome to a listen.

25 watts (into 8 Ohms) First Watt Nelson Pass design DIY M2X.

[Ratbob]

40 minutes ago, Batty said:

I have a Class A power amp in my setup if you are in the Parafield Gardens area anytime you are welcome to a listen.

25 watts (into 8 Ohms) First Watt Nelson Pass design DIY M2X.

Thanks for your offer Steve.

Cheers.

[Colin Rutter]

10 hours ago, Antipodean Brad said:

"But what a great 20 minutes".

 

How could you tell?  You couldn't see anything going past at that speed, and the adrenalin would make you blind and crazy.

At least it got a roof.

I have ridden a motor bike at only 200 kph and that's pretty windy if you sit up.

[Sub Sonic]

On 25/08/2020 at 7:59 AM, Batty said:

I have a Class A power amp in my setup if you are in the Parafield Gardens area anytime you are welcome to a listen.

25 watts (into 8 Ohms) First Watt Nelson Pass design DIY M2X.

I also have a DIY Pass F5, you are welcome to borrow it for a test if you like.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt.

[Ratbob]

1 hour ago, Sub Sonic said:

I also have a DIY Pass F5, you are welcome to borrow it for a test if you like.

Thanks Matt, very generous.

I looked up the amp and also saw your build when you posed a question on SNA, very clever, way beyond me.

No need to borrow it but many thanks for the offer.

Cheers John

[Red MacKay]

On 25/08/2020 at 9:11 AM, Ratbob said:

Thanks for your offer Steve.

Cheers.

Seriously - if a shop won't let you demo it and you are a serious purchaser - don't give them your money!

 

Take up Batty's generous offer.  For my ears -Class A is the best way to go.  I love my SET valves which is Class A, but for the last 6 months have been happily enjoying a 30yr old Class A Accuphase.

[wen]

I went to a hifi shop years ago to listen to some JBL speakers, they had mono blocs hooked up, asked them to hook up an integrated, insisted we listen as it was set up , we walked out and bought them at another shop who accomodated our requests, its your money .

[Ratbob]

2 hours ago, Red MacKay said:

Seriously - if a shop won't let you demo it and you are a serious purchaser - don't give them your money!

A bit harsh in my view. 

It’s not a matter of the shop not letting me demo the product, it’s a case of them not having the product to demo. 

[Batty]

I also have an MF A1.

[Ratbob]

2 hours ago, wen said:

we walked out and bought them at another shop who accomodated our reques

As per my previous comment, your example isn’t relevant.

The shop, Challenge HiFi, is very accommodating and will happily mix and match their demos but they can’t do that with products they don’t have on the floor or in stock. Adelaide has a very small market for $10,000+ amps and I don’t blame them for not having a 509x and a 590axii and a high end tube amp to compare. 

[Red MacKay]

Well Mr Rat - I personally would not shell out $10K on a hunch!

No matter how nice the hifi shop owners and staff are.  $10K is serious money.

 

OK, here are my thoughts, just my opinion and remember  opinions are like backsides - a ClassA Luxman is a kind of pretend ClassA amp.  It doesn't have a big P/S, and that is the absolute heart of a ClassA.

Even diy Hirage amps of just 30W ClassA have bigger trannies and P/S.

 

The Luxman has beautiful styling in spades if that is what you are after though.

 

I believe a ClassA Accuphase unit would be a better purchase on all fronts (imo).  Styling, sound, build quality, longevity, and those VU meters are just beguiling...   Absolutely - you buy what suits you though.

 

Maybe a trip interstate when that is allowed again, and demo a few different options in a number of shops.  Make a holiday of it with your partner and have a win win.

[Wimbo]

3 hours ago, wen said:

I went to a hifi shop years ago to listen to some JBL speakers, they had mono blocs hooked up, asked them to hook up an integrated, insisted we listen as it was set up , we walked out and bought them at another shop who accomodated our requests, its your money .

So you'd be happy and go away until the integrated was at a proper operating temperature before listening?