Does Ethernet Cable makes sound difference like an USB cable?

[frednork]

13 minutes ago, TDK said:

 

Sorry Fred but you're just off base.

 

If you knew how ethernet works, and how specifically how a "Cat-5/5e/6" standard was applied you'd understand.

 

In the case of Cat-6 (for example), the cables are tested to be within spec which makes them effectively immeasurable from one another on equipment than can cost 10's of thousands of dollars. This 'within spec' does not mean a certain degree which can be improved on - it means devices that cost an absolute fortune cannot measure any fault or difference between any of the cables at the standard to which they are being tested.

 

This test is currently thousands of times faster than what we listen to music at and they need to measure with zero fault. Even if there were a fault, ethernet can detect and resolve it.

 

So in other words, one ethernet cable measured to cat-6 standard will by all intents be identical to another. If a machine that costs 10's of thousands with a bandwidth immeasurably higher than yours ears cannot detect any digital faults, assuming your ears can is simply your mind playing with the facts.

 

My knowledge is not theoretical and I am not talking about the same debate that is had within the analogue cable space (or even the HDMI space for that matter. Ethernet is not simply an asynchronous transmission standard).

 

If anything can screw up digital transmissions via ethernet, it's far more likely to be the equipment that it's connected to.  Faulty ports that drop packets, bad transceivers, dodgy firmware, port speed negotiation failures, duplex settings, dodgy MAC tables  - whatever. Cables as long as they are not faulty, are just cables.

 

 

Well, I hear a difference and have heard all the EE arguments as to why not, was the same with speaker cable then interconnects, then usb, now  ethernet. Eventually it will be a given just as these others are, I dont mind that you theoretically "know" they dont make a difference. It is fine with me. We are on different paths. I  wish you well.

[Ittaku]

29 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Understood.  I was trying to assist in un-derailing the thread by linking 2 otherwise divergent lines of discussion back to the OPs question.

Okay. The answer is most definitely noise can come down the data lines on USB, just as it can on ethernet. However, cables do not intrinsically change noise that is coming from upstream unless they're also filters of some kind (and almost all cables are not intentionally filtering with a few notable exceptions) - they instead faithfully transmit the noise that comes with the data. The potential for noise can also come in from outside the cable though, and shielding and wire configuration can minimise this, but there is also the potential for the data travelling within the digital cable going outside and polluting other nearby cables and electronic equipment as well - but the voltages and currents in both USB and ethernet, and the spec designated wire configuration and shielding that is supposed to go with these cables, should all but make this totally irrelevant. However "audio" brand manufacturers of both ethernet and USB cables often don't even meet the specifications that are well described for these digital communication channels and that is the one scenario those cables are almost guaranteed to make things worse instead of better. I'm happy for people to experiment however they like but my generic advice would be get good quality data cables that meet the spec for the data they're designed to transmit and avoid all audio branded data cables.

[RussB]

Do Ethernet cables make a difference to the sound like USB?

 

Yep absolutely, in my system. Of what I have tried,  the choice of ethernet cable into my streamer has similar effect to choice of USB and more effect than power cable.

[Stereophilus]

27 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Okay. The answer is most definitely noise can come down the data lines on USB, just as it can on ethernet. However, cables do not intrinsically change noise that is coming from upstream unless they're also filters of some kind (and almost all cables are not intentionally filtering with a few notable exceptions) - they instead faithfully transmit the noise that comes with the data. The potential for noise can also come in from outside the cable though, and shielding and wire configuration can minimise this, but there is also the potential for the data travelling within the digital cable going outside and polluting other nearby cables and electronic equipment as well - but the voltages and currents in both USB and ethernet, and the spec designated wire configuration and shielding that is supposed to go with these cables, should all but make this totally irrelevant. However "audio" brand manufacturers of both ethernet and USB cables often don't even meet the specifications that are well described for these digital communication channels and that is the one scenario those cables are almost guaranteed to make things worse instead of better. I'm happy for people to experiment however they like but my generic advice would be get good quality data cables that meet the spec for the data they're designed to transmit and avoid all audio branded data cables.

I am broadly in agreement with what you write here.

 

Next question (to the forum in general).  Can the noise conducted along the Ethernet line affect the electronics (oscillators, clock circuits, DAC chips, etc) further downstream?

[bob_m_54]

55 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

I am broadly in agreement with what you write here.

 

Next question (to the forum in general).  Can the noise conducted along the Ethernet line affect the electronics (oscillators, clock circuits, DAC chips, etc) further downstream?

It possibly could. But the noise will affect the downstream electronics equally, whether it is transmitted via a $10.00 Ethernet cable, or a $100.00 one.  It's the method of or preventing or removing noise in the first place, that is important.

[Stereophilus]

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

It possibly could. But the noise will affect the downstream electronics equally, whether it is transmitted via a $10.00 Ethernet cable, or a $100.00 one.  It's the method of or preventing or removing noise in the first place, that is important.

If noise carried via a cable conduit has potential to interfere with the electronic processing downstream then the properties of that conduit also have the potential to affect the processing downstream.

 

We should not assume this potential effect is inaudible or immeasurable.  We also should not assume to know that 2 different Ethernet cables, regardless of cost, carry noise in an identical manner.
 

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, bob_m_54 said:

It possibly could. But the noise will affect the downstream electronics equally, whether it is transmitted via a $10.00 Ethernet cable, or a $100.00 one.  It's the method of or preventing or removing noise in the first place, that is important.

 

Sanest comment all thread.

 

CAT3 will get your data from one end to the other just fine. There is likely no lost data. Banging on about there being no lost data is not a complete argument.

 

There's a ton of other stuff influencing when packets arrive at your network interface controller (NIC) - timing from the upstream router/switch/whatever, interference along the line, whatever.

 

Better specification cables can minimise the influence of external and conducted noise sources (though higher spec cables aren't always a solution here - STP needs care if used).

 

Assuming your NIC has enough smarts to work out which packets are intended for your device (not all do), then every packet of data intended generates an interrupt. As in your CPU stops what it's doing (like dealing with playing music) momentarily and executes code/processes to deal with the packet that just arrived.

 

The timing of that interrupt with vary from regularly periodic to less than this much given external noise influence and suboptimal packet timing upstream. Bigger packets mean less interrupts, and slower transmit speeds tend to give less phase noise. Zero surprises then that most audiophile solutions favour big packets, slower rates, less noise and more consistent timing.

 

It doesn't really matter that the data gets there or that the NIC has a buffer - the CPU is interrupted, that gives rise to OS jitter with is (in a general sense) what we try to minimise in an audiophile setting. Periodicity here is better than randomness. And there's a ton to tune... Try playing back off one core with your NIC interrupt on another, if you can. It's often audible.

 

The above is basic Ethernet + OS basics.

 

You may have independent upstream buffering of significance, you may not (where independent implies data handling interrupts are independent of whatever mechanism clocks out data to your DAC IC). As always, pull the cable to see if you've a solution worth making better. You may not.

 

There's some solid advice earlier in the thread about cables being made to very high specifications. True. Whether those specs are relevant to your issues are another matter, and there is not cable on earth worth more than $50 that will rock your world. Ethernet cables are broadly a solved thing. This does not mean there's no room for improvement in the audiophile space. As per @bob_m_54 cables exist to not make worse an upstream condition. But anyone suggesting it's about lost data is selling you crap.

 

Kinda pointless comparing Pro audio activities also. A perfectly timed playback system would reconstruct whatever was recorded, timing warts and all however small. The onus isn't on recording to make timing perfect. Basic maths.

[kukynas]

23 hours ago, Colourless- said:

Since streaming uses TCP protocol with error correction and data is not affected from jitter, I would like to ask that does ethernet cables make any sound difference just like USB cable? 

you answered your own question, but first people need to understand what does it mean, we've had similar discussion years ago (@rmpfyf might remember) how network protocol and attached devices work together, so in regards of connection between streamer/renderer and upstream network, in simple words if your streamer is well designed and meets the standards of network streaming and works as it should than quality of your cable is completely irrelevant (presume meets the industrial standards of Cat category), typical streaming packets size in worst case scenario is couple of megabits (hi-res) where's your typical home network throughput would be in hundreds or thousands of megabits, that's in terms of speed and throughput, most important part is software/OS of your streamer, typical Linux/Windows (most of the shelf streamers are Linux based) process would pull the data out of the network either from NAS or cloud (in case of streaming services), does the necessary error check before it's played via your playback software (MPD/Jriver/Audirvana/foobar or whatever else) which also in the mean time does the buffering of the stream to further eliminate issues in the upstream (i.e. foobar does around 3 sec. in standard setting) and that's it, the most important part is how is the software/OS part implemented and how does it interact with network protocol, again if it meets network standards your cable quality or upstream hardware is completely irrelevant so before we start swapping cables or audiophile routers we should check that our streamer does it's job otherwise no matter what you do with upstream network won't fix potential issues related to ability of your streamer process lossless network audio, if you are concern about noise potentially affecting your streamer performance buy galvanic network isolator such as this https://www.ebay.com/itm/LNF-C7-LAN-Noise-Filter-for-Network-Player-Eliminate-Transmission-Noise/331057579170?hash=item4d1491c4a2:g:HgAAAOSwSFBZ5uZh , I haven't notice any difference between streamer with or without network isolator (one with built in isolator) so I don't expect (if the streamer does its job) it would change sound quality because we aren't at the point of talking about sound quality yet....

in terms of upstream jitter it's again irrelevant, if streamer does its job and buffers the network stream there's no way how it could affect the playback process 

btw. every network attached device provide certain type of data buffering otherwise network protocol and error correction wouldn't work...

 

connection between streamer and DAC, here's where the magic happens, where buffered network stream begins to flow as live stream and where jitter and noise (generated by streamer's processes, PSU and design) starts to be potential issue and harm to sound quality, but only in case your DAC doesn't meet today's standards in terms of isolation and signal processing, and even if it doesn't meet today's standard of isolation and processing I don't see any reasons why standard USB cable could be potentially worse than audiophile one, it would just pass the same information as the expensive one no matter of level of noise and jitter, there's no other substances which could potentially improve or affect quality of the connection if both cables meets USB standards (same applies for network cable connection) for digital data transfer

 

if you wanna make your audio chain upstream immune as much as possible start with most important part first = DAC, than streamer and than the rest in case of further needs...

 

 

[TimZ]

2 hours ago, kukynas said:

you answered your own question, but first people need to understand what does it mean, we've had similar discussion years ago (@rmpfyf might remember) how network protocol and attached devices work together, so in regards of connection between streamer/renderer and upstream network, in simple words if your streamer is well designed and meets the standards of network streaming and works as it should than quality of your cable is completely irrelevant (presume meets the industrial standards of Cat category), typical streaming packets size in worst case scenario is couple of megabits (hi-res) where's your typical home network throughput would be in hundreds or thousands of megabits, that's in terms of speed and throughput, most important part is software/OS of your streamer, typical Linux/Windows (most of the shelf streamers are Linux based) process would pull the data out of the network either from NAS or cloud (in case of streaming services), does the necessary error check before it's played via your playback software (MPD/Jriver/Audirvana/foobar or whatever else) which also in the mean time does the buffering of the stream to further eliminate issues in the upstream (i.e. foobar does around 3 sec. in standard setting) and that's it, the most important part is how is the software/OS part implemented and how does it interact with network protocol, again if it meets network standards your cable quality or upstream hardware is completely irrelevant so before we start swapping cables or audiophile routers we should check that our streamer does it's job otherwise no matter what you do with upstream network won't fix potential issues related to ability of your streamer process lossless network audio, if you are concern about noise potentially affecting your streamer performance buy galvanic network isolator such as this https://www.ebay.com/itm/LNF-C7-LAN-Noise-Filter-for-Network-Player-Eliminate-Transmission-Noise/331057579170?hash=item4d1491c4a2:g:HgAAAOSwSFBZ5uZh , I haven't notice any difference between streamer with or without network isolator (one with built in isolator) so I don't expect (if the streamer does its job) it would change sound quality because we aren't at the point of talking about sound quality yet....

in terms of upstream jitter it's again irrelevant, if streamer does its job and buffers the network stream there's no way how it could affect the playback process 

btw. every network attached device provide certain type of data buffering otherwise network protocol and error correction wouldn't work...

 

connection between streamer and DAC, here's where the magic happens, where buffered network stream begins to flow as live stream and where jitter and noise (generated by streamer's processes, PSU and design) starts to be potential issue and harm to sound quality, but only in case your DAC doesn't meet today's standards in terms of isolation and signal processing, and even if it doesn't meet today's standard of isolation and processing I don't see any reasons why standard USB cable could be potentially worse than audiophile one, it would just pass the same information as the expensive one no matter of level of noise and jitter, there's no other substances which could potentially improve or affect quality of the connection if both cables meets USB standards (same applies for network cable connection) for digital data transfer

 

if you wanna make your audio chain upstream immune as much as possible start with most important part first = DAC, than streamer and than the rest in case of further needs...

 

 

Thanks for the very detailed infomation! The reason I'm asking this topic is actually because I connect my network streamer directly into my PC's LAN port. Hence I'm affarding that there will be interferrence coming from my PC to somehow pollute the sound.

 

the galvanic network isolator might be the item that I'm looking for right now. Again, thanks for the very detailed reply!

 

[dbastin]

I'd say many members would be interested to see a list of ethernet cables intended for IT purposes that are claimed to be as good as any ethernet cable intended for audio use.

 

If you know these, please let us know the brand, category, where to buy it, and typical cost.

 

It seems ethernet cables intended for audio pay particular attention to sheilding, sheilding materials, and the like (rightly or wrongly), so I assume the list would include Cat 6 and above.

[Bunno77]

I haven't had an optimised switch or a network prioritised for the audio traffic but have used a $4,000 cable, ~$100, a standard patch cable and made my own screened cat6 with different grounding options. Screened cat6 was reclaimed from an industrial job site I was on.

Haven't heard a difference from the standard patch cable on 3 different streamers.

I accept some cables make a difference but I haven't heard ethernet cables make a difference yet but still open to the possibility.

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

7 hours ago, kukynas said:

you answered your own question, but first people need to understand what does it mean, we've had similar discussion years ago (@rmpfyf might remember) how network protocol and attached devices work together, so in regards of connection between streamer/renderer and upstream network, in simple words if your streamer is well designed and meets the standards of network streaming and works as it should than quality of your cable is completely irrelevant 

 

 

 

Sorry my friend I disagree (the conversation you're referring was USB) - and your comment is yet another that states eásentially 'Ethernet makes sure your data gets there eventually irrespective of the cable'.

 

The data will usually get there just fine. This isn't the problem!

 

It's the interrupt periodicity off the packets coming through it that matters.

 

Cables can affect this.

 

5 hours ago, Colourless- said:

 I connect my network streamer directly into my PC's LAN port. Hence I'm affarding that there will be interferrence coming from my PC to somehow pollute the sound.

 

the galvanic network isolator might be the item that I'm looking for right now. Again, thanks for the very detailed reply!

 

 

Assuming they're relative close together and there's little EMI from the PC, thats likely a pretty clean connection. I'm not sure you're going to need more isolation (all Ethernet ports have some already). Isolators exist but on a short crossover connection they're unlikely to be useful.

 

The rest depends on timing off the PC NIC and how the streamer handles the packet.

 

5 hours ago, dbastin said:

I'd say many members would be interested to see a list of ethernet cables intended for IT purposes that are claimed to be as good as any ethernet cable intended for audio use.

 

If you know these, please let us know the brand, category, where to buy it, and typical cost.

 

It seems ethernet cables intended for audio pay particular attention to sheilding, sheilding materials, and the like (rightly or wrongly), so I assume the list would include Cat 6 and above.

 

They're all tested to standards or they can't be called Ethernet. This said the standards involved pertain to maximum bandwidth and non audiophile contexts. Our bandwidths are low, we care about the shielding. A great example is CAT8 - none here is streaming 40Gbps of audio, and some people have 5m lengths of it... It was never intended to run said lengths.

 

We had a good thread earlier about the merits of STP or UTP in audio use. Some good information was brought up.

[davewantsmoore]

5 hours ago, Bunno77 said:

I accept some cables make a difference but I haven't heard ethernet cables make a difference yet but still open to the possibility.

Ultimately, there are ways that any cable can make a difference in an audio system.    They're a weak point for noise ingres/egres, and for poor terminations distorting a signal.

[kukynas]

36 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Sorry my friend I disagree (the conversation you're referring was USB) - and your comment is yet another that states eásentially 'Ethernet makes sure your data gets there eventually irrespective of the cable'.

no, it was related to differences between local and network playback (HDD vs NAS) in ideal(ish) server build, I might find it...but anyway, it's like with any other network streaming, if there are any issues with network streaming it won't be happening due to limits of the cat cable

 

46 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

It's the interrupt periodicity off the packets coming through it that matters.

 

Cables can affect this.

I wouldn't argue if it's unbuffered live stream but it's not, it's well buffered prior to further live stream down the line so SW/HW have enough time to deal with any interrupts, something would have to be well broken if it affects the playback process 

[bob_m_54]

11 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

If noise carried via a cable conduit has potential to interfere with the electronic processing downstream then the properties of that conduit also have the potential to affect the processing downstream.

 

We should not assume this potential effect is inaudible or immeasurable.  We also should not assume to know that 2 different Ethernet cables, regardless of cost, carry noise in an identical manner.
 

We should not assume that any difference in the cables, which have been manufactured to meet the same standard for the job they are doing (ie carrying data as specified by the standard) will affect the "sound" of a system. It can only affect the reliability of data reaching it's destination by way of bit errors (which result in packet losses) causing buffer underruns or dropouts. The audible effect will be sound, or no sound.

[frednork]

15 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

We should not assume that any difference in the cables,

Are you referring to usb cables here as well?

[bob_m_54]

1 minute ago, frednork said:

Are you referring to usb cables here as well?

No, it was a reply in context to the quoted post, re Ethernet cables. I haven't studied USB data transfer technology enough to make any useful comment on it.

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, kukynas said:

no, it was related to differences between local and network playback (HDD vs NAS) in ideal(ish) server build, I might find it...but anyway, it's like with any other network streaming, if there are any issues with network streaming it won't be happening due to limits of the cat cable

 

I wouldn't argue if it's unbuffered live stream but it's not, it's well buffered prior to further live stream down the line so SW/HW have enough time to deal with any interrupts, something would have to be well broken if it affects the playback process 

 

You're focusing on the data again. 

 

That's not the issue/avenue for improvement.

[Ittaku]

I beg to differ. Ethernet packet timing and sizes are so wildly aperiodic and asynchronous from the audio stream that's constructed from the data that it should have no effect no matter how many extra interrupts are generated, nor when they're generated, nor what timing and periodicity they're generated with, and resends are actually unbelievably rare as well.

[aussievintage]

37 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I beg to differ. Ethernet packet timing and sizes are so wildly aperiodic and asynchronous from the audio stream that's constructed from the data that it should have no effect no matter how many extra interrupts are generated, nor when they're generated, nor what timing and periodicity they're generated with, and resends are actually unbelievably rare as well.

 

Yes, I am extremely puzzled about this as well.  The explanations just don't gel.  Once the data is sitting in a controlled downstream buffer, having transmitted over the ethernet or USB connection, how can playback of the audio information represented by the data be any different?

[Stereophilus]

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

We should not assume that any difference in the cables, which have been manufactured to meet the same standard for the job they are doing (ie carrying data as specified by the standard) will affect the "sound" of a system.

Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

It can only affect the reliability of data reaching it's destination by way of bit errors (which result in packet losses) causing buffer underruns or dropouts. The audible effect will be sound, or no sound.

I think we just went over this a few posts back... Ethernet cables can conduct noise to downstream components. That conducted noise can (potentially) affect sensitive downstream electronic thereby affecting sound quality.  The discussion about data integrity is irrelevent in relation to the conduction of noise on ethernet.

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, Stereophilus said:

That conducted noise can (potentially) affect sensitive downstream electronic thereby affecting sound quality.  The discussion about data integrity is irrelevent in relation to the conduction of noise on ethernet.

Unless the noise causes data errors, it will not affect the digital stuff downstream, and proper design of power supplies and shielding should be protecting that same downstream equipment analogue sections from noise coming in via digital cable (and generated internally).   

 

This would explain maybe why some people don't hear an improvement with better ethernet cables - because their downstream equipment is better (properly) designed and it copes with the problem reducing it to inaudibility.

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

I beg to differ. Ethernet packet timing and sizes are so wildly aperiodic and asynchronous from the audio stream that's constructed from the data that it should have no effect no matter how many extra interrupts are generated, nor when they're generated, nor what timing and periodicity they're generated with, and resends are actually unbelievably rare as well.

 

I differ with your difference.

 

Go compile a kernel with relevant tracers and run some OS jitter stats yourself.

 

You're interrupting the same CPU responsible for playback. It cannot possibly be purely asynchronous.

 

That's basic OS theory.

 

Furthermore - if you believe Ethenet packets so wildly aperiodic, I challenge you to remove any oscillators from your routers and switches and see how you go. (Oh that's right - all digital processes are clocked out, and have inherent periodicity).

 

Unless you buffer and clock out independently at the very end, all jitter on shared interrupt devices matters.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by rmpfyf

[Ittaku]

Just now, rmpfyf said:

 

I differ with your difference.

 

Go compile a kernel with relevant tracers and run some OS jitter stats yourself.

 

You're interrupting the same CPU responsible for playback. It cannot possibly be purely asynchronous.

 

That's basic OS theory.

But you're assuming the jitter of USB matters as well. We differ on that too.

[Guest rmpfyf]

Just now, Ittaku said:

But you're assuming the jitter of USB matters as well. We differ on that too.

 

Depends what's at the other end.