Does Ethernet Cable makes sound difference like an USB cable?

[Ittaku]

2 minutes ago, Colourless- said:

Not all DACs supports usb galvanic isolation, I used to use iDefender to break the 5v ground loop from my PC and supply it with iFi iPower, and the result turns out to be audible, the background is darker(probably improved Signal to noise ratio), and the details are sharper and vivid. 

I wasn't talking about galvanic isolation. I was just talking about the 5v line being connected at all.

[TimZ]

5 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I wasn't talking about galvanic isolation. I was just talking about the 5v line being connected at all.

Hmm, when I disconnect the 5v (isolate the 5v USB connection with a plastic tape) from my PC's USB port, my DAC will not detect any USB signal at all. So i guess the USB interface is still powered(somehow connected in the circuit) by the USB power? 

 

I'm not sure about the technical levels, it's just my assumption. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Colourless-

[Wimbo]

6 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

I'd stick to $50 simply because the solutions involved are commoditized. There's cables in the wild that far exceed any specification relevant to audiophile anything. Yes, there are thousand-dollar cables out there made of platinum whatever but they're missing the point.

If you have a look at my Sig you will see I use Zaphs CoAx cable @ $13 a metre (Very hard to terminate) and I tried out a few of Bill's interconnects and found both substantially better then the other cables I had to hand. To the point where they were better in my system then some other fairly expensive cables. Bill charges $50 plus for his interconnects (using Van Damme copper )depending on length and Zaphs speaker cable came up to around 60 bucks in total. Both had no outstanding faults from what I could hear. I have completely changed my system and they are still sounding the way I like. The thing is, I could here the differences.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, frednork said:

Basically  I would not pay any attention to anyone who hasnt actually tried cable x in their system as it is just pure speculation.

 

I'll take speculation over psuedo science.

 

I'd also speculate the world is round based on irrefutable scientific proof, yet we still have flat earthers.

 

Speaker cables or interconnects are a grey area - but ethernet cables are not. The idea is scientifically ridiculous.

 

If anybody believes that, then I've got some audiophile quality SSD's I can sell you.

 

[Ittaku]

8 minutes ago, Colourless- said:

Hmm, when I disconnect the 5v (isolate the 5v USB connection with a plastic tape) from my PC's USB port, my DAC will not detect any USB signal at all. So i guess the USB interface is still powered(somehow connected in the circuit) by the USB power? 

 

I'm not sure about the technical levels, it's just my assumption. 

Sure, I didn't say it was universal, just that a lot don't have it connected. It seems in your DAC's case the 5v is used to detect there's a signal coming, which is one approach that could be used, along with powering smaller DACs directly. In both of those cases, there is most definitely potential for noise coming through the 5v line.

[frednork]

1 minute ago, TDK said:

I'd also speculate the world is round based on irrefutable scientific proof, yet we still have flat earthers.

I see the above quite differently. I consider cable deniers "flat earthers" as they believe the current paradigm and wont go and have a look so see if the new theory has any merit...

[Wimbo]

1 minute ago, TDK said:

 

I'll take speculation over psuedo science.

 

 

 

 Huh?

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, frednork said:

I see the above quite differently. I consider cable deniers "flat earthers" as they believe the current paradigm and wont go and have a look so see if the new theory has any merit...

Just remember that in history,  it was always the guys with the new theories that had to prove their new assertions.  In audio, most people with a new idea seem to flatly refuse to do that.  If the old school does try the new tweak and hears nothing, they will not be believed.  The new guys refuse to be tested on it. Stalemate.

 

As always, in these disagreements, there needs to be some give and take.

[Guest]

Just now, frednork said:

I see the above quite differently. I consider cable deniers "flat earthers" as they believe the current paradigm and wont go and have a look so see if the new theory has any merit...

 

Ethernet cables are not in this class. They do not colour or change the sound in any way whatsoever by their very design. A change in the data stream by definition would fail to pass through the ethernet standard, even 1 bit.

 

The worse that you can get is packet loss, but this is almost always down to the equipment involved and very rarely EVER the actual cables. Copper cables that transmit data are passive devices.

 

Other cables can be argued, I get that, but not Ethernet.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Wimbo said:

 Huh?

 

One can speculate based on the fact of how ethernet cables work that unless one is faulty, it would be impossible for them to sound different from each other. It's just a fact of how ethernet works.

 

So yes it's speculation, as I have not tried a dozen different brands of ethernet cable in my system to compare - however, I know exactly how ethernet works down to a bit level, so I don't need to. My "speculation" is based on hard facts that I know to be true.

 

Pseusdo science is those who try different ethernet cables and talk about a more open 'sound stage' due to the silver in their cables.

 

This hobby we all share certainly is a great one, but it's often more a religion than a hobby.

 

 

[Stereophilus]

25 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Sure, I didn't say it was universal, just that a lot don't have it connected. It seems in your DAC's case the 5v is used to detect there's a signal coming, which is one approach that could be used, along with powering smaller DACs directly. In both of those cases, there is most definitely potential for noise coming through the 5v line.

Is there potential for noise to travel on the data lines as well?  Is there potential for electrical noise to piggy back on Ethernet lines as well?

[TimZ]

1 minute ago, Stereophilus said:

Is there potential for noise to travel on the data lines as well?  Is there potential for electrical noise to piggy back on Ethernet lines as well?

That is what I'm thinking as well, good question!

[Wimbo]

28 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

If the old school does try the new tweak and hears nothing, they will not be believed.  The new guys refuse to be tested on it. Stalemate.

I think the main problem here (and really, it should not be a debate) is the Ear/Brain (emotional) interface. This is complicated and some people can not here what others can. What happens next is that those who can't here differences turn to very basic science to broadcast to the world that those that can are charlatans and deceivers. This is sad as it is one of the reasons that recorded music is not as good as it should be.

I will not be tested on my findings of the different things in the HiFi chain as I was tested on it for decades demoing equipment in Single speaker dem rooms and on comparators.

Over that! Once again, no idea on ethernet cables and Aussie knows first hand my knowledge of all things computerised

Edited December 14, 2019 by Wimbo

[Guest Muon N']

48 minutes ago, TDK said:

Speaker cables or interconnects are a grey area

You must be kidding.

 

I guess it takes a while before everyone catches up.

[Guest]

Just now, Muon N' said:

You must be kidding.

 

I guess it takes a while before everyone catches up.

 

Do I believe that you need to spend $10,000 on a set of cables to get a better sound than a $1,000 pair? No I do not. Do I believe that a $500 cable sounds better than a $50 cable - yes I do.

 

It's no wonder the pro audio guys laugh their asses off at our hobby, and they do this for a living.

 

As I said, Ethernet is not in this class.  if you are arguing it is, then you are conflating your analogue beliefs onto digital (and not just digital, but ethernet specifically) which is just dead wrong.

 

This is no more a matter of opinion than gravity exists or smoking causes cancer.

 

You're absolutely right though - it does take a while for some people to catch up.

[Guest Muon N']

@TDK stating it to be a gray area suggest to myself that you were talking about whether they make a difference of not. Your detailed response can be applied to any components, subject to the individual components in question.

 

You are assuming I'm arguing for this device, you are wrong, I am neither arguing for nor against it.

[frednork]

40 minutes ago, TDK said:

So yes it's speculation, as I have not tried a dozen different brands of ethernet cable in my system to compare - however, I know exactly how ethernet works down to a bit level, so I don't need to. My "speculation" is based on hard facts that I know to be true.

I dont need you to agree with me but I dont see the value of what  you and others add to this and many other similar threads (despite your theoretical knowledge) unless you have tried it and found that for you it made no difference. If that is the case I can accept that  no problem and that it a "real sample point in the many and varied opinions that abound. I think there are many possibilities as to why one might not hear a difference and that is ok with me.

 

I dont need to "convert" anyone to thinking the "right way" as there is no right way in this hobby.  I would prefer I did not hear differences between cables as it can become quite expensive and as my budget is limited most of the time it is a compromise (as I am sure it is for most people with their gear). And I would prefer to not have people try to convert me either (not to say that is what you were doing at all)

 

 

[Ittaku]

50 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Is there potential for noise to travel on the data lines as well?  Is there potential for electrical noise to piggy back on Ethernet lines as well?

Yes there is, but the discussion was specifically with respect to 5V if you follow the post trail.

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, Wimbo said:

If you have a look at my Sig you will see I use Zaphs CoAx cable @ $13 a metre (Very hard to terminate) and I tried out a few of Bill's interconnects and found both substantially better then the other cables I had to hand. To the point where they were better in my system then some other fairly expensive cables. Bill charges $50 plus for his interconnects (using Van Damme copper )depending on length and Zaphs speaker cable came up to around 60 bucks in total. Both had no outstanding faults from what I could hear. I have completely changed my system and they are still sounding the way I like. The thing is, I could here the differences.

$50 rule is a good one, forces solid creativity.

 

And keeps wife happier

[Stereophilus]

Just now, Ittaku said:

Yes there is, but the discussion was specifically with respect to 5V if you follow the post trail.

Understood.  I was trying to assist in un-derailing the thread by linking 2 otherwise divergent lines of discussion back to the OPs question.

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 If the data gets there, intact and on time (no buffer underruns etc), any decently designed piece of equipment can perform it's job 100% to it's own spec.  In reality, it's very rare for this not to be the case.

 

Didn't say it'd not meet spec.

 

There's some room for improvement is all.

[Guest]

Just now, frednork said:

I dont need you to agree with me but I dont see the value of what  you and others add to this and many other similar threads (despite your theoretical knowledge) unless you have tried it and found that for you it made no difference. If that is the case I can accept that  no problem and that it a "real sample point in the many and varied opinions that abound. I think there are many possibilities as to why one might not hear a difference and that is ok with me.

 

I dont need to "convert" anyone to thinking the "right way" as there is no right way in this hobby.  I would prefer I did not hear differences between cables as it can become quite expensive and as my budget is limited most of the time it is a compromise (as I am sure it is for most people with their gear). And I would prefer to not have people try to convert me either (not to say that is what you were doing at all)

 

 

 

Sorry Fred but you're just off base.

 

If you knew how ethernet works, and how specifically how a "Cat-5/5e/6" standard was applied you'd understand.

 

In the case of Cat-6 (for example), the cables are tested to be within spec which makes them effectively immeasurable from one another on equipment than can cost 10's of thousands of dollars. This 'within spec' does not mean a certain degree which can be improved on - it means devices that cost an absolute fortune cannot measure any fault or difference between any of the cables at the standard to which they are being tested.

 

This test is currently thousands of times faster than what we listen to music at and they need to measure with zero fault. Even if there were a fault, ethernet can detect and resolve it.

 

So in other words, one ethernet cable measured to cat-6 standard will by all intents be identical to another. If a machine that costs 10's of thousands with a bandwidth immeasurably higher than yours ears cannot detect any digital faults, assuming your ears can is simply your mind playing with the facts.

 

My knowledge is not theoretical and I am not talking about the same debate that is had within the analogue cable space (or even the HDMI space for that matter. Ethernet is not simply an asynchronous transmission standard).

 

If anything can screw up digital transmissions via ethernet, it's far more likely to be the equipment that it's connected to.  Faulty ports that drop packets, bad transceivers, dodgy firmware, port speed negotiation failures, duplex settings, dodgy MAC tables  - whatever. Cables as long as they are not faulty, are just cables.

 

 

[Guest Muon N']

People use to say similar about media playback programs, and then USB cables, that's It's all 1's and 0's so can't sound different.

 

Me, I don't know and am happy with no definitive answer, so I'll wait for the truth to come out one way or the other as it usually does eventually.

[Bunno77]

39 minutes ago, TDK said:

 

 

 

It's no wonder the pro audio guys laugh their asses off at our hobby, and they do this for a living.

 

 

Depends how pro.. They are some amazing studios with very high end gear and many pros/musos who have some very high end gear including cables.
Kids in a 2x2 room with Yamaha powereds seem to have a lot to say.

[Guest Muon N']

Just because someone does something for a living, or holds a degree in something does not 100% exclude them from erroneous conclusions.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Muon N'
typo