I'mInterested Posted March 21, 2020 Posted March 21, 2020 Hi, I was pleasantly surprised by the difference in going between blue jeans cat6 and the Cardas clear cat7. After some settling in I found the music had a whole lot more “body” with the Cardas. So happy I gave it a go.
dbastin Posted March 21, 2020 Posted March 21, 2020 On 18/03/2020 at 7:36 PM, mattjtaylor2809 said: I've just bought & installed these cables ... & the effect on the sound was night & day. It would be great to share your experience on the thread Ethernet Cables for Audio Part A.
dbastin Posted March 21, 2020 Posted March 21, 2020 3 hours ago, I'mInterested said: I was pleasantly surprised by the difference in going between blue jeans cat6 and the Cardas clear It would be great to share your experience on the thread Ethernet Cables for Audio Part A.
gwurb Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 On 21/03/2020 at 10:22 PM, I'mInterested said: Hi, I was pleasantly surprised by the difference in going between blue jeans cat6 and the Cardas clear cat7. After some settling in I found the music had a whole lot more “body” with the Cardas. So happy I gave it a go. This may have something to do with higher data throughput. If you are trying to move large amount of data and your cable and/or device is struggling to get it all for audio playback then maybe you may notice something? I mean packets not getting there fast enough for when they need to be played. If that's happening you may have huge issues with your network hardware and may have too much traffic on your network. I would look at quality of service tagging before spending huge amount of money on overbuilt cables.
dbastin Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, gwurb said: I would look at quality of service tagging before spending huge amount of money on overbuilt cables. Just an observation, its unlikely to be about data, and moreso about noise on data and sheilding. A member tried using a $750 SOtM ethernet cable downstream of a EtherRegen (ie. Side B and observed an improvement in SQ compared to generic ethernet cable. Edited March 23, 2020 by dbastin
jeromelang Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 Ethernet cables directionality exhibit all do. Haven't come across any that don't.
gwurb Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 1 hour ago, dbastin said: Just an observation, its unlikely to be about data, and moreso about noise on data and sheilding. A member tried using a $750 SOtM ethernet cable downstream of a EtherRegen (ie. Side B and observed an improvement in SQ compared to generic ethernet cable. What makes you say its unlikely to be about priority of traffic? What do you think made the difference? Shielding? Can you can the science behind what difference that would make in ethernet, data rates and error rates in the context of audio delivery?
dbastin Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 @gwurb A lot of this ethernet in audio is puzzling and doesnt make scientific sense, but can change sound quality. If you haven't already discovered them, youll find some interesting discussions and insights on these threads: - Ethernet Cables for Audio Parts A, B & C - Ethernet Switches for Audio Parts A & B. 1
gwurb Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, dbastin said: @gwurb A lot of this ethernet in audio is puzzling and doesnt make scientific sense, but can change sound quality. If you haven't already discovered them, youll find some interesting discussions and insights on these threads: - Ethernet Cables for Audio Parts A, B & C - Ethernet Switches for Audio Parts A & B. I have read the switches post. To me a lot of posts in relation to Ethernet and audio point to the placebo effect. Not all, but a lot. I would love to have someone show measurements to back their claims. In analogue audio cable space there are measurable differences between cables. In power delivery and conditioning there are measurable differences (and perceptions on how much difference they make). In Ethernet there is error detection and correction and thus data that gets the tick of approval for further processing is correct. If there are problems in keeping up with data rates then sure, it will make a difference. If on the other hand 1011 is sent and it's received as 1011 then it doesn't matter that it was received at the lowest threshold or with noise, it's still 1011. None the less the cable has done it's part! If a retransmission is needed but it's still keeping up with the needs of throughput then the cable still has done its part. If the cable results in too many retransmissions then of course there is a problem. To make it simpler if there was a difference between 1011 in one Ethernet switch buffer and 1011 in another Ethernet switch buffer then we would not have functioning Ethernet networks; this comment is in relation to cables only. As I said I would love to see evidence for what is making the alleged differences in the Ethernet networks used for playing audio. Edited March 23, 2020 by gwurb
Ittaku Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 1 hour ago, gwurb said: If on the other hand 1011 is sent and it's received as 1011 then it doesn't matter that it was received at the lowest threshold or with noise, it's still 1011. None the less the cable has done it's part! If a retransmission is needed but it's still keeping up with the needs of throughput then the cable still has done its part. If the cable results in too many retransmissions then of course there is a problem. To make it simpler if there was a difference between 1011 in one Ethernet switch buffer and 1011 in another Ethernet switch buffer then we would not have functioning Ethernet networks; this comment is in relation to cables only. Standard ethernet cables that meet specifications and switches are capable of approximately a billion times faster transmission accurately than that which is required for audio reproduction. If there is a difference, it has nothing to do with data integrity, reliability, or retransmission. The internet is evidence of that. 3
ViVa Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ethernet-audio This is an interesting read on the business of Audio in larger environments. I do however think having a Cat6 or Cat7 network is sufficient to produce decent quality music in most home networks while knowing all end-points needs to be properly terminated right up to the router. Avoid ISP routers and you will do yourself a big favour in improving audio quality over the network.
pwstereo Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, ViVa said: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ethernet-audio Avoid ISP routers and you will do yourself a big favour in improving audio quality over the network. That statement about avoiding "ISP routers" makes no sense. ISPs offer many different routers, most of them are also available off the shelf in normal tech retailers and computer shops. While a router supplied by an ISP may not be as full featured as some other models further up the manufacturers range, it still provides the required functionality for an internet connection, and I'm sure it's not degrading audio quality.
mattjtaylor2809 Posted March 26, 2020 Posted March 26, 2020 Possibly lower standard power supplies? I'm sure ISP's when choosing what 1000's of modem/routers they buy for their customers, they're not thinking about network/digital audio! Not sure if any does but maybe a better router will have a less noisy power supply which could make a slight difference? Just my 2 cents worth.
gwurb Posted March 26, 2020 Posted March 26, 2020 2 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said: Possibly lower standard power supplies? I'm sure ISP's when choosing what 1000's of modem/routers they buy for their customers, they're not thinking about network/digital audio! Not sure if any does but maybe a better router will have a less noisy power supply which could make a slight difference? Just my 2 cents worth. The thing to really understand with cables, signal integrity, etc is this: Modern home 'network audio' devices use IP networks. Don't confuse them with specialised layer 1 or layer 2 audio protocols. Do you install specialised hardware in your PC to play audio your networked audio device? If you do then there are special considerations but that is not a typical home case. Use switches because they will take your data from your PC/source and transmit to a port that will buffer the packets. They will then move that data to the outgoing port and transmit, ideally to the audio device. In a situation where there is 1 switch between the source and audio endpoint there will be no congestion unless you overload the switch (unlikely in a home environment unless you have huge amounts of data transfer and/or a VERY low end switch). In the situation above there are 2 collision domains, which will never experience any collisions, and if you get the right switch they will be full duplex so really the data flow will have no problems. Any noise introduced on to the transmission medium (the ports and the cables) is sorted by error checking and correction in the switch and in the network audio device at the ethernet subsystem. Jitter in something like DAC where USB or some other digital method (like coax) is used is very different to jitter on packet switched networks like Ethernet. The way that the audio end point handles the data is VERY different in these two scenarios. Power supply noise in data switched networks is not an issue to worry about, otherwise we would have problems all over the place including your internet banking where you would loose and gain money all over the place! If you are going to setup a network where there are multiple switches between the source and the audio end point then packet priority and switch uplinks will matter but most likely so little in most use cases that there is nothing to worry about (check your own setup). Get a CAT6 or CAT6a cable if you want a lot of extra headroom. If the cables are badly terminated or the ports get interference then there will be re transmissions but the cable damage and/or interference has to be pretty bad to not handle data rates required for audio. If you really want to go all out then install fibre links. Remember, packet transmission, encapsulation and decapsulation is a whole different cattle of fish to point to point processing between devices like source and DACs. If the audio end point struggles with processing packet data then the problem is not the cable, its the audio end point Some ISP routers and switches are poor, and some are good; no need to dismiss them purely because they come from ISPs Use a switch or router, don't use a hub (if you can find a hub somewhere still...) 1
BugPowderDust Posted March 26, 2020 Posted March 26, 2020 It seems every post on Ethernet and audio ends in the same place. People who actually understand the protocols and technology being shouted at by people with magic ears who, because they paid money for an audiophile product, expect a profound difference. *spin the wheel, round it goes again 3
BAM Posted March 26, 2020 Posted March 26, 2020 43 minutes ago, recur said: It seems every post on Ethernet and audio ends in the same place. People who actually understand the protocols and technology being shouted at by people with magic ears who, because they paid money for an audiophile product, expect a profound difference. *spin the wheel, round it goes again You forgot to mention 'but haven't tried themselves', being shouted at. Examples of shouting would be nice. 1
mattjtaylor2809 Posted March 26, 2020 Posted March 26, 2020 Jeez, that stirred up a few All I'm saying is that when I removed the 5 cent Cat 6 RJ45 cable & replaced it with a 10% silver + copper cable with Telegartner connections (loosely based in the Audioquest Vodka), my music sounded better to me, surely that's all that matters? Whether switching an ISP supplied modem, 30 mtrs away at the other end of Cat 5 cable is another question of which I would say, doubt it BUT....if people feel that it makes a diff, then well done you, tell us your findings & it goes into the mix. Cheers all Matt
dbastin Posted March 26, 2020 Posted March 26, 2020 3 hours ago, BAM said: but haven't tried themselves That's the key bit. I'd like to think we're not shouting at each other though. I think the way to shout in text is LIKE THIS. I once tried to understand why changes to ethernet effects SQ - now I just listen to the effects. I dont care if technically or theoretically it should or should not effect SQ. To those who stand by the theory and haven't tried themselves ... in my experience there is not much to lose and a lot to gain - be adventurous, listen with an open and unbiased mind and you might be surprised to hear what you've been missing out on, and consequentally want. A good way to experiment - get a friend with some different interconnects, usb, digi cable and power cable and different ethernet to what you have. Get your friend to secretly and randomly swap out these with your cables and see if you can tell which change is ethernet. If you dont hear any difference from ethernet - that's totally cool, enjoy what you can hear - some would say you're lucky and financially better off. 1
Cruncher Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 I see a lot of posts comparing USB cable experience and applying them to Ethernet. They can’t be compared because they are completely different technologies. For a start USB has a power cable next to the data lines in the same cable sheath ( Yuck! ). I struggle when I read material from companies that selling audiophile Ethernet cables and products. I see a lot of discussion on Ethernet corruption, packet loss, delay and “Ethernet noise” ( I need someone to show me this and explain it to me) and how bad it is and how it can interfere with the clocks in DACs and wreck audio etc etc but I never see and data. Below is the measurement statistics for my network ( using a cat 5 cable I got free and number of years ago with a DSL modem or Wii). I have mobile phones, WiFi, light dimmers, a refrigerator and washing machine at my house all spewing out noise. From the stats you can see I have transmitted 14 Trillion packets with not a single CRC error. Name Value Counters 2020-04-12T00:26:07Z Packets Tx (packets) 14,120,530,243 Packets Rx (packets) 5,713,543,745 Bytes Tx (bytes) 26,587,020,300,500 Bytes Rx (bytes) 6,471,179,863,744 Error Counters 2020-04-12T00:26:07Z Tx (errors) 0 Too Short Rx (errors) 0 Too Long Rx (errors) 0 Sync Losses (errors) 0 Signal Losses (errors) 0 Rx (errors) 0 Link Failures (errors) 0 Discard Tx (errors) 0 Discard Rx (errors) 0 Crc Rx (errors) 0 Does anyone think I need a $12,000 Ethernet cable https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/rj-e-ethernet/diamond to make my blacks blacker and my base deeper ? I can think of some scenarios where a better constructed Ethernet may help ? Yes, if your current Ethernet cable is damaged or was dodgy in the first place (never compliant to the Ethernet cabling spec). I may help with a bad Ethernet implementation in the transmitter or receiver. If ‘Ethernet Noise’ is messing with your DAC’s clock that is simply poor design and indication that someone who does not know what they are doing or is cutting cost, cutting corners or all of the above. 1
pwstereo Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 Imagine how bad streaming should sound with all the different Ethernet cables and switches and routers and what-nots between the server and your playback equipment. I bet those data centre, telco, and ISP techs aren't selecting the finest gold/platinum/diamond Cat 8 super cables when they making patch changes or installing new equipment. 1 1
Cruncher Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 Steaming, Voice, Video, Audio over packet has technologies to overcome things like packet loss and jitter (within limits). These are well researched and documented in the IETF and ITU standards. Massive scale Data Center operators , streaming firms put their effort into things that matter in a measured way. I don't mind if someone buys a better Ethernet cable for a reasonable price and they can afford it. Tweak away. What I do care about is Ethernet being made out to suddenly becomes mystical beast just because it's carrying red book audio and people being made to feel they need to buy cables made of unobtainium at hyper-inflated prices using marketing double speak. The reason Ethernet is so cheap is market economies. It has been enhanced and refined over the last 30 years and with 100G and 400G Ethernet shipping it is not slowing down. If you are worried about noise simply move to Ethernet over Optical cables. 1 1
Assisi Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 9 hours ago, Cruncher said: Does anyone think I need a $12,000 Ethernet cable https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/rj-e-ethernet/diamond to make my blacks blacker and my base deeper Only if you need to go 10/12 mts with that cable. Shorter is much cheaper but still relatively expensive I agree. To me there is benefit with my 1 and 0.75 mtr diamond cables. John 1
dbastin Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) Well, let this mess with you brain ... Firstly, to be clear, my experience is that some ethernet cables with unobtainium conductors do make a difference - I have some. I was using Wireworld Platinum Cat 8 (so they claim) - solid core pure silver conductors. One was 1m from switch to Devialet Pro, one 50cm from switch to Antipodes server. Then I swapped the 1m to another 1m mostly silver ethernet cable in the same price range. Not a bit of difference - a lot. I didn't expect that much. When I've had more time with it I will share more - but for now I'll say it is like the magnitude of difference between OLED and previous tech, backlit LED. SO much more clarity and definition. But a lighter weight. But here's what will really twist your brain. I replaced the 50cm WW platinum with the 1m WW Platinum, because it would reach more comfortably. What do think happenned? It sounded different, and it seems I was hearing more of the WW Platinum sound character - rich textures, greater density, heavier weight, more bottom end, actually too much for me. So it appears to me even the length of theWW Platinum cable matters, maybe others too. But I'm not about to buy $12k of 10m AQ Diamond. I dont have 2 different lengths of any other cable to see if this can be replicated. Incidentally, not long after I changed the switch (iinet Bob Lite (Belkin) for an Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch 10x in stock config which is considerably better SQ. And it affected the tonal balance, the bottom end has reduced to be really nice balance and its definition is now ridiculously good. But the impact of this switch is another story I'll put in the Ethernet Switches for Audio Part B thread when I've been through some hoops and tweaks with it ... before connecting EtherRegen to it with various cables (incl fibre and 4 different pairs of SFP modules). Edited April 12, 2020 by dbastin typos
Cruncher Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 No it does not mess with my brain. What are the NEXT measurement for the Wireworld Platinum Cat 8 and the WW Platinum ?
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