davewantsmoore Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 20 hours ago, zippi said: to cough up between $80-$100 per month and still not get a satisfactory level of service. It was always going be like that. If you want to have somewhere between double and 10x the service speed you had not long ago .... and have "all you can eat" style volumes ..... then you're going need to pay more for that. It costs significantly more for ISPs to deliver you 10x faster data. <shrug> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: So do you believe that everybody should pay more (or get less) .... because certain consumers want "all you can eat" video? What I believe is that when a consumer of data signs up with an ISP for a certain plan with a certain fee per month and a certain data allowance, there should be no provisos. If you want unlimited, then you pay more than someone who only wants 100GB. It either is or it is not and inevitably some people will use far more data than others. If ISPs offer unlimited quota then any given subscriber should be able to use the amount of data that suits him/her within the defined parameters of that plan. It is not he duty of the consumer to have regard to how and why certain plans are offered. It is literally none of their business, nor should it be. 19 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: It is the duty of the ISP to run their business as they see fit and a contact exists between consumer and ISP with both parties expected to honour the terms and if unlimited is not sustainable for the ISP then they simply should cease offering it. 20 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Clusterf&ck, how exactly? I think you will find that once you clarify your concerns .... you'll fit perfectly I find this somewhat patronising but perhaps you had no intent for it to be thus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 20 hours ago, betty boop said: tendered out huge slabs of fat built in So the NBN is costing more in Australia than the equivalent projects in other countries?..... Is it? 17 hours ago, proftournesol said: My view is that NBN should not be subject to ''FAIR market forces' as they aren't fair, it's a public utility that offers the possibility Yes, can you imagine if we had left the water and electricity networks a free for all. There'd be 3 different power systems, and 5 providers running wires to your suburb. There'd be rent seekers everywhere, and we would have very little (easy) choice about fixing the problem. The private sector can implement the network (although people will still blame the government for it, see Addicted to Music, "brilliant" post further back) ..... but we need to tell them how we want them to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 39 minutes ago, rantan said: What I believe is that when a consumer of data signs up with an ISP for a certain plan with a certain fee per month and a certain data allowance, there should be no provisos. Sure... so you can find an ISP who is willing to offer you that. The proposal is for NBN to start charging ISPs differently ..... ISPs don't have to pass that on. They can come up with their own model (how ever they want). There's a lot of other options too. Providing a network which always works at full speed (ike the NBN) is expensive..... perhaps people might be willing to pay for a service which only works at "up to X" ..... but let's them stream large amounts of "all you can eat" video. There's lots of options. You can say that "everyone must pay the same so it's fair" ..... but it's more fair when people pay more when they cause more cost. 39 minutes ago, rantan said: If ISPs offer unlimited quota then any given subscriber should be able to use the amount of data that suits him/her within the defined parameters of that plan. That's up to the ISP to decide.... 39 minutes ago, rantan said: It is the duty of the ISP to run their business as they see fit and a contact exists between consumer and ISP with both parties expected to honour the terms and if unlimited is not sustainable for the ISP then they simply should cease offering it. Then perhaps they will cease offering it. 39 minutes ago, rantan said: I find this somewhat patronising but perhaps you had no intent for it to be thus. No, it was intended to be blunt. "It's a dog's breakfast, but I don't know what I'm talking about". <smh> You seem to be misunderstanding what is being proposed. NBN Co are proposing to offer their customers (the ISPs) a new product. The ISP can do whatever they want with it, including not use it at all. How your ISP charges you for your data is up to your ISP. The new products might help ISPs deliver services more flexibly when a lot of their customers are "using the internet as cable TV". The reality is it's "expensive" to watch TV all day over the internet.... If NBN Co doesn't help ISPs with this ... then the ISPs will just solve it themselves (which many already do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 13 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Oztralia way of life, tax the tax for the tax on top of that tax with another tax...... the privilege for living down under 18 hours ago, proftournesol said: We were once a rich developed world country that could invest in long-term projects and first class infrastructure. Now we offer tax cuts to the rich, cut services for the poor to pay for it and make the majority pay unaffordable 'market forces'. There's no real competition, everyone makes a good profit We've discussed this quite a few times before.... but look above. You see why I keep telling you that the voter wouldn't agree to pay (loooottttss!!!!) more for the NBN. They already think "taxes for public good = bad" .... and "government can't do anything right". Yes, government are flawed, but they have to be compared to realisticalternativess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proftournesol Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 10 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Yes, can you imagine if we had left the water and electricity networks a free for all. There'd be 3 different power systems, and 5 providers running wires to your suburb. There'd be rent seekers everywhere, and we would have very little (easy) choice about fixing the problem. The private sector can implement the network (although people will still blame the government for it, see Addicted to Music, "brilliant" post further back) ..... but we need to tell them how we want them to do it. Agree, NBN has been morphed by the politicians from a nation building project into an exercise that is profitable so that it can be privatised. There are little in the way of social justice principles, such as we apply to water, power or sewerage: "Oh so you want to flush number twos down the toilet, that'll cost you extra". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositivelyMusicallyGeared Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I wouldn't mind another 50b spent as long as they get the fibre infrastructure right - to every premise; the money would have been pork-barrelled in some other way anyway. There could be an NBN tax imposed on every ton of dirt dug out and shipped overseas and no excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 6 hours ago, proftournesol said: "Oh so you want to flush number twos down the toilet, that'll cost you extra". Not a very good analogy for the NBN. Water and electricity (and many other things) are charged on some level of "pay per use" ..... and it needs to be that way. Decisions have been made with the NBN build, that mean not everyone can get gigabits to the home yet (FTTN, wireless, etc.) ..... NBN (needs to be) is more about retaining control over the next upgrade round(s) (to those people can get faster services at a time when it makes sense to the public, not to megacorp). The threat here is making half the country wait / stagnate on < 1gbps services for the entire 2030s..... while the rest of the world (and the rest of Australia) progresses. ie. a repeat of exactly what happened from 2000 to ~2015. If getting upset that the very large chunk of money we just spent, only stretches to what it did...... means that the idea of having "public control over telecommunications is flawed" [Just check some of the responses in this thread, or the MSM] ... then you are throwing the baby out with the bath water...... and it's a very important (and expensive) baby.... and by expensive, I mean, cost the alternate approach (eg. poorly regulated privateers), and figure out how much it will cost us over the next few decades (both in higher prices, but also lost opportunity). Staggering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 35 minutes ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said: I wouldn't mind another 50b spent as long as they get the fibre infrastructure right It only makes sense if it is regulated well long term.... so the public is the boss. I think this will never happen while popularist decisions are made for MSM cheerleaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDrawerDown Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 On 12/07/2019 at 11:04 AM, Monkeyboi said: What is the difference between a pessimist and an optimist? The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true. James Branch Cabell, in The Silver Stallion (1926) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, ThirdDrawerDown said: The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true. James Branch Cabell, in The Silver Stallion (1926) there is also the realist... that sees the reality of the day....and doesnt HAVE to be an apologist for anyone. can instead just say it as it is... ie describing the current state for what it is. even if it's a complete shambles and p!ssing the public purse literally up the wall, squandering it away with the utter incompetence it clearly is. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proftournesol Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 13 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: If getting upset that the very large chunk of money we just spent, only stretches to what it did...... means that the idea of having "public control over telecommunications is flawed" [Just check some of the responses in this thread, or the MSM] Then let's spend more and do it properly, keep it in public control so that it can work for the benefit of citizens, rather than work for shareholders at the expense of citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 13/07/2019 at 8:38 PM, betty boop said: even if it's a complete shambles and p!ssing the public purse literally up the wall, squandering it away with the utter incompetence it clearly is. Yet you post little to no justification for such a strong opinion. ... and you call it "the reality". You don't know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 13/07/2019 at 6:23 AM, proftournesol said: Agree, NBN has been morphed by the politicians from a nation building project into an exercise that is profitable so that it can be privatised. There was never a plan on the table which didn't include "profitability" (ie. the NBN as a teleco wholesaler charging its customers enough money to turn a profit). ie. it wasn't morphed from "what proft thinks it should have been" .... into "what it is now". There have been agendas run which have taken advantage of the sentiment (disseminated by stooges like Al) that the project is too expensive, and too slow, and too incompetent. So let existing players gain more leverage in the game. This benefits those players greatly (in most ways, at your expense). On 13/07/2019 at 6:23 AM, proftournesol said: There are little in the way of social justice principles, such as we apply to water, power or sewerage: "Oh so you want to flush number twos down the toilet, that'll cost you extra". This is a false equivalences. The social justice is getting everybody the opportunity of access to "broadband" services..... the "netflix tax" is a way to go about delivering that. If, instead, you believe that NOT asking people to pay for what the network costs to use ..... then you are asking for everyone to be punished equally. It will jeopardize such "deliver the access to everybody" missions. You cannot have the cake, and eat it too. Quote "Oh so you want to flush number twos down the toilet, that'll cost you extra". You seem to misunderstand what this is about. ISPs can do this today (of their own free will) to their customers (you). This is NBN doing it to their customers (the ISPs). The ISPs don't have to pass it on, or purchase products under this pricing ..... but it's an opportunity for them to do, if they want (most big ones likely won't, as they already have managed the issue internally). On 14/07/2019 at 2:51 AM, proftournesol said: Then let's spend more and do it properly If you want the voter to agree to spend more of their taxes ..... then consider that they never will if they are only fed "lies" about the nature of the project they are being asked to commit money to. Look to your fellow citizen, it is up to them. On 14/07/2019 at 2:51 AM, proftournesol said: keep it in public control so that it can work for the benefit of citizens So far, it is. Lots of people have been convinced (mostly hearing it "from a mate", or on some news article or chat forum) that it's been poorly designed and run..... so, if the voter doesn't want to keep it.... then you can be certain it will be sold. The regulatory framework will be critical..... but we have a poor track record there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: There have been agendas run which have taken advantage of the sentiment (disseminated by stooges like Al) that the project is too expensive, and too slow, and too incompetent. Wow. That is a grade A ad hominem Dave. Why are you playing the man and not the ball? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: The regulatory framework will be critical..... but we have a poor track record there. So poor, in fact, that I definitely do not want to see this, or any more of our infrastructure, sold in the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, rantan said: Wow. That is a grade A ad hominem Dave. Why are you playing the man and not the ball? No, it is not ad hominem at all. I am not saying that "Al is wrong because Al said it". That would be "ad hominem"..... and I am not saying "Al is a stooge therefore you should believe what we says". I am saying that he is wrong (because he IS wrong), and that is what makes him "a stooge". Quote Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself I am saying that Al is wrong (and he doesn't know what he is talking about) because what he said is wrong. I am saying he is a "stooge" because the description fits. He is the "stooge" of those who want the NBN to be called a "dogs breakfast" without sufficient clear rational comparison to similar projects, or other (actually possible, no unicorns) options. Quote Why are you playing the man and not the ball? No, I am playing the ball HARD. The ball is "is the NBN good"..... "Al says it's a dogs breakfast" .... but provides all of diddly squat actual reasonable support for that argument. This deserves to be smashed hard. Are you just salty that I did (or tried to, heh) the same to you? If he would actually provide a "this is why it's a dogs breakfast" (that contained more than whimsical anecdotes of pissing against walls) ..... then we could slice that up, and taste it. .... until then, we can only work with what we've got. 18 minutes ago, aussievintage said: So poor, in fact, that I definitely do not want to see this, or any more of our infrastructure, sold in the foreseeable future. There are many countries that are pretty good examples which we could follow. It's sad. Edited July 17, 2019 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, rantan said: 2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: disseminated by stooges like Al That is a grade A ad hominem Dave. Larry, Curly or Moe ? I agree, ad hominem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: I agree, ad hominem. Maybe a new dictionary would help? It is almost the opposite of ad hominem. I am attack the argument solely because the argument is wrong.... and I have suggested the other party provide more justification (so I can show that they are wrong). Why does someone repeat an incorrect argument (that they clearly don't understand), with no justification provided. Because they are a stooge (check dictionary again) of people who began originally spreading the misinformation. I am quite offended by the call of "ad hominem". I do not believe that the truth depends on who says it.... and I think it is quite "low" (and shows lack of intellect) to says "oh, you just think that because you're X" (which is what ad hominem is - attacking character, or other attribute of the person who said it - which is not related to the core argument). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Please. I am not even microscopically salty for any reason whatsoever and I do understand what an ad hominem is and I do not need the dictionary citation. I recognise your expertise in the ISP industry and I would be pleased if you acknowledged my expertise and training in areas of lexicography and language history. The fact remains that you made your argument personal and words such as stooge are regarded in the vernacular as demeaning or designed to belittle. Playing hard is not necessary in this instance and does not absolve you from speaking with respect ( something I have always acknowledged in regard to your expertise ) Some reciprocated respect to everybody else here even when playing hard, (which seems like a euphemism) would be entirely appropriate., so why not bring the thread back to discussion and information? It isn't a cage fight. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Maybe a new dictionary would help? stooge noun 1. derogatory a subordinate used by another to do unpleasant routine work. 2. a performer whose act involves being the butt of a comedian's jokes. stooge - Urban Dictionary Top definition ... A stooge has skewed thinking and little intelligence yet thinks he/she is equal to or ... You can spot a stooge, at events where free food is served. 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: and I think it is quite "low" (and shows lack of intellect) Not sure this helps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Quote a subordinate used by another to do unpleasant routine work Yes, this. Plant "disinformation", and let people (who don't particular bother to check or understand) repeat it. When you do this those people are your "stooges". Yes, I'm being somewhat derogatory. Because such little justification was provided for the position of "dogs breakfast". I think it is warranted.... but it is not "ad hominem". You see in fact, perhaps it is Rantan who himself resorted to ad hominem. Calling me an "apologist". Rather than retort any of the details or justification that I have provided..... he sums it all up as "you just think that because you're an apologist" .... as in I would say "anything" to support the NBN. That's perhaps a stretch sure..... but the point is that I am 1000% here to play the "ball" .... that is why I'm calling those like Al (and others) out. Because there is no "ball" in their argument to play (because there is little to no real justification provided) .... and I would like there to be. Show I can show others reading their error. I don't necessarily expect people to be happy with NBN .... but if you're going to poke at it, it needs to be compared realistically (ie. what's the mission, and what are projects it could be reasonably compared to, etc. etc.) Perhaps it's a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Nice try at deflection Dave but it is utterly transparent. However, since you need to play hard ( and always be right) I will leave you to tilt at as many windmills as you please. The NBN is what it is and this is a boring as bat ****. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proftournesol Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 I'm just back from Barcelona where I spent some time admiring Catalan telecommunications wiring 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 7 hours ago, proftournesol said: I'm just back from Barcelona where I spent some time admiring Catalan telecommunications wiring The nbn co has been here too.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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