HT Upgrades

[Guest]

So I didn't actually realise until I visited the review thread recently how long I've had my current system in place, Integra since 2013, PJ since 2014, Oppo 103 since release, PSA Sub is about to double.

And yet given all the new stuff Atmos and DTS X primarily, I don't feel I've missed anything, I can certainly tell when I play an Atmos track on the 70.4, now I'm also a bit of a fuddy duddy in that I'm also happy at 5.1 (5.2 next Saturday).

I, like many used to be driven by having the latest and greatest within my budget, I have also been a golfer for a long time, and though not great at it, probably enjoy it just as much as HT.

But have to honestly say since my return from the "koola", I can't see anything HT wise that excites me, 4K has replaced 3D as the double dip standard (read sucker punch tag).

Interested to hear some views and opinions as to what members think has changed enough for them to shell out the hard earned, and as usual, and respectfully YMMV.........

[yamapro]

Hey Neil,

Long time no speaky!!!

My gear is even older than yours....(still running with the faithful 8720 )

I agree though, haven't had a demo of Atmos but the theory doesn't excite me. Still thinking of upgrading the PJ to a full HD unit but also not higely bothered by either 3D or 4K.

I have just recently got with the times and utilise a Heos streaming system for music which is actually getting daily usage so that has been a great aquisition.

Otherwise, in my hiatus i have discovered photography as a hobby and the GLW has started playing piano.

Hope life is treating you and yours well!

 

[Guest]

Pretty much the same here ... went from 5.1 to 7.1 to 6.1 and have ended up back at 5.1 as my preferred, no fuss, setup.

ive lisrpted to lots of other multi speaker setups, including atmos, and always come home happy.

whilst I don't get enough time, photography too is also a keen hobby thanks to @Snoopy8

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, yamapro said:

Hey Neil,

Long time no speaky!!!

My gear is even older than yours....(still running with the faithful 8720 )

I agree though, haven't had a demo of Atmos but the theory doesn't excite me. Still thinking of upgrading the PJ to a full HD unit but also not higely bothered by either 3D or 4K.

I have just recently got with the times and utilise a Heos streaming system for music which is actually getting daily usage so that has been a great aquisition.

Otherwise, in my hiatus i have discovered photography as a hobby and the GLW has started playing piano.

Hope life is treating you and yours well!

 

Hey mate, great to see you about, and likewise with family.

The one change I have made is to go to a NAS, and that and a Dune HD media player is amongst the best bucks I've ever spent, I don't mind the new sound formats, but I just don't see (or hear) enough from them to pull 3K out of the pocket to go there, Sony PJ is still awesome, watched Logan last night and PQ stunning on it.

in fact I may add another BR player so I have region A and B dedicated, but 2nd player will most likely be an XB1 S, as it covers my needs, and is rated better than most new release UHD players.........

 

[Snoopy8]

I think this thread should be called "HT Upgrades (NOT!)". I added a second sub, SVS SB2000, which was idle when I got my SVS SB-13U and upgraded my ancient rears to Monitor Audio Apex A-10s earlier this year. Rest of the 5.1 system is 3 or more years old, with no intention of upgrading to more channels, Atmos etc.  No UHD urge either, so player, TV not being replaced.

What I have done instead is upgrade the music system (which shares the mains and subs) and taken a leap forward with a new network player Sotm SMS-200 (search SNA for more info), new cables, power supply. Looking to replace 5 year dac as well as upgrading the powered speakers (manufacturer about to offer upgrade to a Mk2 version). 

As for the disease I inflicted Chops, ,  the photography is still going, but music has taken the $$ and some of the focus (pun intended!) 

[Guest]

We've got a 92 inch screen, which gives a wonderfully sharp image with a short throw install, so I'm not inclined to bother with 4k unless I see a massive improvement in PQ somewhere. Perhaps the Flatscreen, currently 37 inches will be the first to require replacement in the near future (backlights seem to be dying) but 42 inches is the biggest I could go with our current setup.

There is the Beyonwiz T4 sitting here, the replacement to the lost Evil T3, I'm still considering if it;s worth the trouble putting it into service.

So ... very little new tech on the horizon here.

The best thing I have bought recently is the Nvidea Shield, has to be one of the most rock solid steamers I have had since the Dune Smart HD ... although it is still better at de-interlacing U.S. DVD ISO's

[Quark]

I need to update my HT room thread. Replaced the BenQ W6000 with a JVC X500 back in September 2015, which was a nice step up in PQ. Also took the opportunity to install a Cineslide for the Mk4 A-lens (had previously left the lens in the light path for 16:9 material and just used the W6000's image squeeze as a workaround).

However, the biggest upgrade I've done was when I installed a Panasonic UB900 player. The big upgrade was not from the player or the UHD discs, but because it meant I had to bypass my old Integra DHC-9.9 for video - had never realised, but the supposed video pass-through was softening the image significantly. I've kept the old Oppo 95 for Region A discs and am using the UB900 for everything else. The improvement in image quality running video direct to the X500 has been a revelation - it's also substantially reduced the HDMI handshake issues with the X500.

Haven't had any audio/video synch issues running separate HDMI outputs for sound and picture.

If anyone's wondering, I'm using a HDFury Integral to get around HDCP 2.2 issues with the X500. Tried a Monoprice Blackbird as a cheap test device first and this was good, but want to try some of the workarounds on AVS for BT2020 and HDR and need the Integral for these. Will put the Blackbird up for sale soon.

And before anyone asks, IMO UHD (at least without HDR and WCG at present) is only a modest upgrade on my setup.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Quark said:

And before anyone asks, IMO UHD (at least without HDR and WCG at present) is only a modest upgrade on my setup.

So on the X500 a UHD Disk is better than a BD, or BD Looks Better, or both?

[Quark]

For the handful of discs I've compared, the UHD disc is a step up, but only a modest one. Again, I'm using the UB900 to convert HDR to SDR and WCG is stripped off too.

Main differences are extra detail like clothing texture, faces etc, but also some subtle improvements from the HDR to SDR conversion.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

For the handful of discs I've compared, the UHD disc is a step up, but only a modest one. Again, I'm using the UB900 to convert HDR to SDR and WCG is stripped off too.

Main differences are extra detail like clothing texture, faces etc, but also some subtle improvements from the HDR to SDR conversion.

Hmmm ... so the X500 won't take a straight HDR signal?  I think it's going to be a while before I bother with 4k

[Quark]

12 minutes ago, Dr Chopsus said:

Hmmm ... so the X500 won't take a straight HDR signal?  I think it's going to be a while before I bother with 4k

There's some custom gamma curves the guys on AVS have developed for HDR - I'll give them a try at some stage, but want to do a calibration with the JVC software and Spyder 4 first as a base. Feedback over there is that the JVCs are prone to a bit of gamma curve "droop" after quite a few hours (mine's up around 1200 hours).

Edited July 3, 2017 by Quark

[Guest]

Are any of you (still) using a Darby Darblet?

[cwt]

5 hours ago, Dr Chopsus said:

Hmmm ... so the X500 won't take a straight HDR signal?  I think it's going to be a while before I bother with 4k

Following years model Chops ' the x5000/7000/9000 have hdmi2.0a with hdcp2.2 which can take HDR and a WCG  The current 5200 etc models are also geared for UHD with even more colour space compatibility ..

When Rob sets up his integral to initiate BT2020 his 500 will get the full colour gamut . That's whats needed to bridge the gap from hdmi1.4 to hdmi 2.0 with hdcp2.2 ; gotta love hdmi 

If it wasn't for a cheap ubd 900 I wouldn't be considering an upgrade to a secondary 4k panel ; the old panel can stand an upgrade ..

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by cwt

[Guest]

Yes ... this is the penalty for being at the front of the early adopter que when it comes to HT ... I think I will wait for the early/late majority this time around.

[agelessgoodguy]

2 hours ago, Dr Chopsus said:

Are any of you (still) using a Darby Darblet?

Nope sold it off after upgrading the Tv to 4 K Sony Android and then Oppo 203 which after a while is now showing its worth......... at last.

[Hatlesschimp]

I think TVs and Projectors went a bit stale for maybe close to 7 years. This year is the start of the true next generation of TV's but even then id like the nits to be improved. The thing that annoys me is people buying these pox soundbars. It reminds me of Cadburys and how they reduced the size of their chocolate but kept the same price. With TVs we basically have no speakers. Im still rolling with a x900a 4k Sony from 2012 and love the big MTM forward facing. Had a demo of a Atmos Soundbar the other day...what a joke! Salesman (saleskid) was trying all the lingo and said ok lets hear it then lol. I think with anything AV it has to be tasted before you can appreciate and want to buy it. Ive had many people come through my theater since its been up and running and they all didnt understand what I was trying to achieve. After I load the Dolby Atmos demo disc and play Dolbys teasers they are amazed, wide open jaws dropped to the ground. I then proceed to load one of many of my 4k Atmos reference Movies just for some further scenes and they all go quite and get sucked into the movie and dont want it to stop. Ive had to tell people to leave. Lol. For me its 75 percent sound and 25 percent what I see, feel and ambience. I have spent a bit on my room but purely focussed on the practicle detail and none of the snakeskin oil. But the way I see it some people buy nice cars and drive only themselves to work and home in it 30 minutes a day. I spend atleast 3 to 4 hours a day myself with family and friends. I also dont have to go out and see movies at the theater and dont have the need to other than the true classics. I saw transformers the other day and it was in a non atmos 7.x cinema. I was so disapointed in the sound and even visually it was poor. I knew when I got the tickets it wasnt in the Atmos theater but it was down because of rain damage and I really wanted to see the movie even though MB has tried to ruin transformers for me. So I guess I save some money there. I just watched Ghost in a shell and sat there admiring the sound repeatedly yeah visually its great but I never thought that. Anyways got lost and babbled on there, I will stop now lol, sorry.

[bbar]

Since moving in 2013 I have not replaced my PJ. I also downgraded from 7.2 to 5.2 as went from an Electra HD 7 channel amp to a parasound 5 channel amp. Still have Oppo 93 and marantz 8801.

dont have a dedicated ht room and could not properly fit a 7.2 setup. So, enjoying the 5.2 setup and watching movies on a 55 inch LCD tv.

i am still a 50/50 person. Love PQ and AQ equally though I may be leaning more towards AQ right now.

If I had a dedicated HT room again then I would lean toward upgrading audio to atmos over  HDR.. I have only seen HDR on storefront tV setups and am of mixed opinion.

is it flash, yes,; but is it natural and how things look in real life. This I am unsure of. Re the 2020 colour gamet. Definitely better representation .

Ps: quark, yes gamma goes askew between 500 and 1000 hours. Happened on all 3 of my JVC's. Corrected by calibration though I believe it became harder to get the perfect curve as the lamp dimmed requiring the iris to be opened significantly. I used to calibrate every 300 hours. Basically at 100,400,700 and 1000 hours though only one of the jvc lamps actually lasted over the 1000 hours...lol

 

Oh yes, and I am a photographer also...lol Spend my time traveling to equestrian events around the world, though mostly in North America. Have done world equestrian games in France,  Olympics in Rio as well as Pan American games.  

Just got back from young riders in New York.  It also gets me out f the cold Canadian winters as we spend 6-7 weeks in Florida covering 2 horse shows. Here is me hard at work.....

last photo is one of mine and second to last is pic with me and my boss ....( in more ways than one...lol)

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by bbar
Added photos

[blybo]

On 7/3/2017 at 4:55 PM, Dr Chopsus said:

Are any of you (still) using a Darby Darblet?

I've gone from an AVR, 720p and 5.1 system to Integra 80.3 and then Marantz 7702 processor, Elektra 7 ch amp, 7.2 Audyssey pro calibration, 4k JVC X7000 and 4k player. I've also done some rudimentary treatment of the room. I got rid of my darbet when I went UHD with the Panasonic. Still have a 4k Samsung as a spare as retail is so low it's not worth selling.

I find UHD discs ARE significantly better than Bd but mainly in colour and contrast, but like any disc, it is the cinematographer and mastering that determine final quality. Watching The Revenanent is like looking out a window rather than a movie, extraordinarily natural.

I got @:) al to do my pro calibration a couple of weeks ago and brought my Subsonic sub back into the theatre room and the difference was quite dramatic. If you have the means I think a pro Audyssey calibration is well worth it.

I may go ATMOS down the track as all I need is a 2nd hand power amp and in ceiling speakers to do it, but not really fussed at this stage.

[MrC]

33 minutes ago, blybo said:

I find UHD discs ARE significantly better than Bd but mainly in colour and contrast, but like any disc, it is the cinematographer and mastering that determine final quality.

 

Cannot agree more. This finding is much like listening to supposed high resolution music files.  Listening to a  ''High Resolution' version of a Roy Orbison or Elvis track is rather pointless.  It is the quality of the recording process that is more important than its resolution.  I do laugh at some websites offering HR versions of albums mastered in the 1960's.  Mind you some in that day were done very well, given the technology available.

Hence buyers of UHD  discs need to be aware of how well the mastering process is done - hence the appearance of websites such as hidefdigest.com.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, blybo said:

If you have the means I think a pro Audyssey calibration is well worth it.

 

Agree 100%, I bought the Audessy Pro Kit about 3 months after getting the integra ... worth every penny 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Guest
Bump

[betty boop]

17 hours ago, bbar said:

Since moving in 2013 I have not replaced my PJ. I also downgraded from 7.2 to 5.2 as went from an Electra HD 7 channel amp to a parasound 5 channel amp. Still have Oppo 93 and marantz 8801.

dont have a dedicated ht room and could not properly fit a 7.2 setup. So, enjoying the 5.2 setup and watching movies on a 55 inch LCD tv.

i am still a 50/50 person. Love PQ and AQ equally though I may be leaning more towards AQ right now.

great to read how things going bbar  and enjoying movies still and running system  with what should be a pretty nice rig. 

interesting on thoughts on HDr. one downfall of any demos I've seen is I do not think any of the stores seem to know how to setup for HDR as yet. yet to see any half decent demo. though in home it doesn't take a lot of setup but even doing what jvc suggests and for different screen size ... I was pretty impressed some tweaking to optimise with actual patterns even more happier.

interesting your thoughts re significant droop 500-1000 hours. it something i have read quite a few report. good news is jvcs autocal which seems to help in this regard and have no doubt iwht your calibration skills you'd have whipped in shape  you certainly had yours dialled in for perfection  best setup JVC I ever saw and was what had me convinced to upgrade to the x35 as i did and much enjoyed for many years

 

but can understand if the flat panel suits for practicalities in current setting !  ps i took the atmos/3D audio step and never looked back. whether its 2 or if going 4 I think something well worth considering.

 

love the pics... and great to hear quite the photographer. some serious gear packing there indeed ! and to great end result.

Edited July 27, 2017 by :) al

[bbar]

Hi Al,

I agree that proper setup can make or break the viewing experience. And stores probably have everything turned up to Max.

We use HDR on most of our pics and yes if done properly definitely enhances the picture. We protect shadows and use a subtle setting. Higher settings can make the pic look unnatural.

We use perfecteffect from ON1 addon into photoshop. So yes agree if done properly. Bit like the Darby was. Set properly it enhanced the picture.

Re JVC, will say I loved their PJ's, even with the shortened lamp life. I was definitely one for calibration and kept it as close to spot on as I could. Gamma was always correctable. It just seemed to drift farther snd farther off course with lamp wear.

Colour drift worst after 100 hours then slow drifting after that. Red drops most in first 100 hours. Probably because it is over saturated at the beginning. Greyscale also drifted gently through time. Again, my time was every 300 hours, which was every 4-5 months....lol

Loved the PJ, but the TV is ok. Will go 4K hdr route in the next couple years I suspect. Maybe a 70 inch panel.

Yes saw you went atmos. Did you go in-ceilings or atmos speakers that bounce sound off the ceiling?

To me this would be the major drive to UHD. That plus the enhanced colour space.




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[betty boop]

On 27/07/2017 at 11:39 PM, bbar said:

Hi Al,

I agree that proper setup can make or break the viewing experience. And stores probably have everything turned up to Max.

hi bbar, its a problem where they dont do even the most rudimentary setup and particularly with projectors UHD is not plug and play. very much a bit of setup required to get dialled in.

On 27/07/2017 at 11:39 PM, bbar said:

We use HDR on most of our pics and yes if done properly definitely enhances the picture. We protect shadows and use a subtle setting. Higher settings can make the pic look unnatural.

Ive been thinking about this a fair bit over the last few days bbar. and I honestly think HDR as done with photography and have done a bit myself is quite a bit different than what is happening with UHD. with cameras ... you are really not dealign with any more dynamic range from the sensor just bracketing either way to cater for exposure for highlights vs low lights.

wiht uhd it is truly different I do think. we have to keep in mind displays have come a heck of a long long way... since say the CRTs of old be they tube TVs or CRT projectors or say even plasmas. natively projectors have come a fair way in output even jvcs they have come up with a little miracle i reckon with the grid polarisers in the current series Xx000/Xx500 with being able to get the output up significantly with yet maintaining great black levels. similarly LCD flat panels are achieving some ridiculous light output they however lack in the black natively and amazingly while oled cant quite achieve in the light output they make up significantly in the blacks achieving also astounding dynamic range. and a more useable dynamic range given ability in blacks. projectors too while cant quite achieve at the top end are also very useable with the JVCs given black capabilities and also that we have the tools now e.g. the R&M files to setup to clip appropriately vs what can achieve for upper end output.

the other which i really feels works completely hand in had is WCG, it really is amazing to see how well work together and it is seen in the gleam of metallics the sheer punchiness of colours. there are a couple of great posts from kris deering who describes best not only the benefits HDR brings but also the new colour space and how it benefits the colour rendition cability of displays today.

So I would suggest where UHD comes in with HDR is for the first time we have mastering engineers mastering to what are the new found capabilities of larger dynamic range capable and WC from our displays. it has nothing to do with the capture capability which hasnt changed and hence so it is very different to high dynamic range of cameras which is just bracketing. a great example is the revenant where the director and cinematographer were able to go to town with the mastering when saw the added benefit and capability possible. it is also what we are seeing with new re releases and re masters as we have recently with Leon the professional and the fifth element. old favourites and are looking absolutely magnificent for it. or say newer releases like life of pi which look utterly gorgeous and alls this before we even talk about the 4K uhd resolution which brings probably 2k-3K for the first time to screen for us to experience. 

its a long post but have thought about it and worth considering I do think.

On 27/07/2017 at 11:39 PM, bbar said:

Re JVC, will say I loved their PJ's, even with the shortened lamp life. I was definitely one for calibration and kept it as close to spot on as I could. Gamma was always correctable. It just seemed to drift farther snd farther off course with lamp wear.

Colour drift worst after 100 hours then slow drifting after that. Red drops most in first 100 hours. Probably because it is over saturated at the beginning. Greyscale also drifted gently through time. Again, my time was every 300 hours, which was every 4-5 months....lol

there is definite evidence of this with the current lines, and why if someone is paying for a professional calibration its a bit of a bother... certainly not something to do at 100 hours ... and then if do at 300 there seems to be quite a bit happening at 500 and above as well. only option i would suggest is the autocal perhaps ... and hopefully thats something can pull things in line. however i have read of late still some issues with the autocal as well with colour pushes and such. so something certainly to consider with projectors. really perhaps laser output based are probably what answer is but they are huge ridiculous sized things and still quite costly ! 

 

On 27/07/2017 at 11:39 PM, bbar said:

Loved the PJ, but the TV is ok. Will go 4K hdr route in the next couple years I suspect. Maybe a 70 inch panel.

yes I still run dual screens and there is reason for both I think. 70" are still very expensive and I couldn't go anything bar OLED I dont think and largest 70" is something like $20k and wiht their lack of reliability in tellys these days I would have a lot of reluctance in going that way. and prob stick with the dual screen thing for a while I think yet

 

On 27/07/2017 at 11:39 PM, bbar said:

Yes saw you went atmos. Did you go in-ceilings or atmos speakers that bounce sound off the ceiling?

To me this would be the major drive to UHD. That plus the enhanced colour space.

indeed I did @bbar  and was one of THE best things have done in my room and setup, it took a lot of saving and planning over some 2 years of buying a component or speaker here and there as could afford. and a lot of thinking and planning on how to even pull off in my space which if can remember is an interesting one and with its own challenges with room above and being of multipurpose use. but pulled it off and to much enjoyment and yes many of the UHDs come with 3D audio however the big surprise for me is just how much enjoyment the upsampling of any every day material even brings to proceedings... some of the mixes are pure amazing e.g. fifth element on uhd a 20 year old movie remastered and with completely amazing 3D audio / atmos mix just goes to show whats possible ! 

can read a bit more about about me going 3D audio here,

some learnings for me.... definitely worth doing... use back boxes ! if go with placement as per recommendations results can be great ! and finally if I can do it in my setup... I reckon anyone can

 

[bbar]

indeed I did [mention=11367]bbar[/mention]  and was one of THE best things have done in my room and setup, it took a lot of saving and planning over some 2 years of buying a component or speaker here and there as could afford. and a lot of thinking and planning on how to even pull off in my space which if can remember is an interesting one and with its own challenges with room above and being of multipurpose use. but pulled it off and to much enjoyment and yes many of the UHDs come with 3D audio however the big surprise for me is just how much enjoyment the upsampling of any every day material even brings to proceedings... some of the mixes are pure amazing e.g. fifth element on uhd a 20 year old movie remastered and with completely amazing 3D audio / atmos mix just goes to show whats possible ! 
can read a bit more about about me going 3D audio here,
some learnings for me.... definitely worth doing... use back boxes ! if go with placement as per recommendations results can be great ! and finally if I can do it in my setup... I reckon anyone can [emoji3]
 

Will go read your atmos journey. Interested also if you went in-ceiling as read somewhere that depending on placement one needed 2700mm height ceilings plus to get proper dispersion of the sound. Can't remember where I read snd I think they recommended the speakers that bounced sound off the ceiling for ceilings of 2400mm. Would have been perfect in theatre room I had as ceilings were 3 meters.

Re calibration on pj. Reason for cal at 100 hours is that red comes in very strong on a new lamp and it takes about 100 hours to tame. Calibrators recommend waiting 100 hours before doing first calibration.

And yes, at 500 hours on my Jvcs there was more of a change in the gamma than colour or greyscale. Colour was probably within tolerances but I liked it at 99% plus accurate. Greyscale wasn't bad but needed a tune-up.




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[betty boop]

1 hour ago, bbar said:

Will go read your atmos journey. Interested also if you went in-ceiling as read somewhere that depending on placement one needed 2700mm height ceilings plus to get proper dispersion of the sound. Can't remember where I read snd I think they recommended the speakers that bounced sound off the ceiling for ceilings of 2400mm. Would have been perfect in theatre room I had as ceilings were 3 meters.

hi bbar, did a lot of demoing all I could prior to my own install and can say wiht confidence 2.4m ceilings are no prob for atmos. however the most hit miss, actually more miss I found the "bounced sound" demos. not very convincing at all. and I wouldn't recommend myself. if do have low ceilings though e.g. a basement e.g. below 2.4m then yeah quite possibly no other option but the bouncing, but didnt experience any setups like that to early say. one other option with low ceilings perhaps to explore would be front heights, rear heights positioned at front and back walls. I heard this at one demo and it worked reasonably well at a show. but would need 7.1 side and rear surrounds at ear level. also this orientation didnt achieve the height effect so well i.e. sounds directly above you the way in ceilings do  anyways just my experience over last 2-3 years been exploring. experience in some other setups might vary...