Do amps really make that much of a difference?

[JimmyiovinE]

I've been around a little while (about two years in the audio game) I understand they make a difference with hard to drive headphones, but do people really here a difference in terms of sound quality? I've only ever had a schiit stack which was my first dac+amp combo then got a chord mojo which was quite the leap, then I added a jotunheim to the chain and I can't really hear any difference apart from allowing me to drive my headphones to higher listening levels.

 

does the higher up the chain as far as cost is concerened really make a difference? Is it even worth it?

[andyr]

Well, mate ... if all you've had is a Shiit stack then no wonder you are asking this question.

 

Then again, if all you listen to are headphones ... it's possible that there really is very little SQ difference between amps?

 

Andy

 

[JimmyiovinE]

2 minutes ago, andyr said:

Well, mate ... if all you've had is a Shiit stack then no wonder you are asking this question.

 

Then again, if all you listen to are headphones ... it's possible that there really is very little SQ difference between amps?

 

Andy

 

 

This is true, i only listen to headphones on my pc. 

[DoggieHowser]

I believe it is the same with headphones.

You choose the speakers or cans that give you the sound that you prefer or like.

Then you choose the amp to drive it best.

If you had electrostatic speakers you'd need to choose amps that can handle the type of load it presents.

With speakers you have to check its impedance characteristics. Some speakers with nominal 8 ohm loads drop to 2.8ohms. So having amps that can deal with that is important.

[Keith_W]

For sure amps do sound different. But it depends on what kind of amp you buy and how you use it. I will assume that you are going to drive a conventional box speaker of average sensitivity and not anything extreme. 

 

For SOLID STATE amps, any competently designed SS amp driven within its linear range will sound remarkably similar. There are differences for sure, but they don't really jump out at you. All bets are off if the amp is not competently designed, or if there are audible faults (e.g. if it oscillates), or if it doesn't deliver its claimed power rating, or if you overdrive it, etc. If you attempt to pair one of these amps with a horrendously difficult to drive speaker like an MBL or one of the big Magicos, you will come up against its limitations very quickly. 

 

For VALVE amps, they sound more different than similar. Some of them can sound like solid state amps, and some of them have more ... "character". More money doesn't always buy you a better amp. With some brands (e.g. Audio Research or VTL), more money actually buys you better parts, more power, etc, but sometimes having more parts in a valve amp also results in more unreliability (don't ask me how I know). With some other brands, more money buys you more mystique, e.g. it might be some Japanese guru who lives in the mountains, only drinks spring water and eats bamboo shoots, who hand winds every transformer with purest grade copper which he sourced from WW2 fighter jets because "it gives the best sound". I would personally steer clear of those brands because I believe in paying for nice parts and good engineering, and not mystique. 

 

If you are on a budget, I would recommend a great big whopping secondhand SS amp and be done with it. If you don't overdrive it, you are not likely to get much benefit from upgrading to a more expensive amp. 

[Vinoholic]

I have high-sensitivity horn speakers (107 db) and have experienced very different sonic qualities by using a variety of amps including solid state, and a variety of tube designs (push/pull, single end triode, and single end pentode),  I am not sure if the differences would be as apparent if played through headphones, or via less sensitive speakers. 

 

Perhaps you could take your heaphones into some hi-fi stores to compare with different amps...? 

[Al.M]

These are just my experiences of amps from about the mid 1980s when I first got into hifi, which I think fits with general reviews.

 

One starts out in hifi at the low end with a common solid state amps for around $400-1000 from brands like Sony, Marantz, Yamaha, NAD, Cambridge etc. With a few exceptions of better sound (more detail, punch and musicality) among these the sound will be good enough as a first purchase, probably described as enjoyable and good value at this level with about 1/3 being terrible, 1/3 good and 1/3 better. My first amp was a 45w Luxman receiver, which I thought was pretty good until I came across an old used 1970s Luxman 507x integrated amp that I didn't know was a bit of a legend at the time. But even in those days with lack of experience the difference was immediately noticeable with much better clarity, punch and musicality. The 507x had a good phono and those days was turntables using pretty good old solid Denon and Technics TTs with Stanton needle cartridges, Linn Fe9 and Sure 97s, which to be honest would still be better than todays high end CD players.

 

Later on one might upgrade to mid-fi level say around $1500-3000 SS intergrated amps and the improvement among the better ones were better clarity, less graininess, more refined treble and midrange and imaging all subjectively by about say 10-30%. At that time I was into 1990s type large $2000 Luxman L510 100W integrated amps but then came along a half the size $1500rrp 60w Audiolab 8000A int amp, which was all the rage in U.K. hifi reviews, absolutely blew away the Luxman with much better treble and midrange refinement, musicality, pace, timing and bass. The Luxman was too smooth and boring by comparison. Around this time then came a swag of amps like the giant killing and most famous beer budget amp of all time the $300 20w NAD 3020 int amp, which kept up with the 8000A though very different sound, lots of tuneful bass, good midrange and musicality for five times less price. Other amps making an impression at the time were Accuphase 303 int and P20 power, Naim Nap 140 and 42 pre. I took home a lot of other amps from hifi shops some good some bad.

 

Further on as you grow out of the mid-fi amps I  started to become more experienced in hearing different amps and gain a better ear for good audio sound and came across amps both integrated and separate pre and power combos, plus tube amps that send you into another world of amp sounds with subjectively even better refined treble, beautiful mids and vocals and tuneful bass. Around this time you start to appreciate that separate pre and power combo appear to sound better for the money, some of the more standout amps out there being Nelson Pass designs, Krell power amps, Naims, KT88 and EL34 based tube amps, some Class D digital amps etc. 

 

After many dozens of different amps by now the subjective amp attributes I chase are adequate power and matching for the relevant speaker, the highly refined treble response, no muddiness, coherence midrange, good imaging, musicality and deep bass. The products that stick in my mind now are my current Goldmund power amp copy, Nelson Pass, Krell power amps, good tubes and some Class D ones. Obviously there are a whole lot out there not mentioned to be tried, more modern and expensive.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Al.M

[WhakPak]

Of course amplifiers make a difference. The power amplifier is the 2nd most important component of the whole system. Speakers are the most important.

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, WhakPak said:

Of course amplifiers make a difference. The power amplifier is the 2nd most important component of the whole system. Speakers are the most important.

 

Someone will be along soon to say "what about the room"?

[rantan]

9 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

Someone will be along soon to say "what about the room"?

 

You already did

[Luc]

3 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

Someone will be along soon to say "what about the room"?

And here I am: What about the room?

 

It is after all your listening environment.

 

 

*As I've discovered the marvel that is your phone in your pocket with your BT ANC cans and your crappy mp3 DL's mixed with your WAV+FLAC DL's and some HiRes stuff that neither your ph or your cans can make hide nor hair of...I 'd suggest you not listen to anything I said about listening environment.

**Another plus is that while gardening and wearing these cans, you can't actually hear the wasp or the bee until they land on you or sting you so you dont scream or over react as a result or the humongous spider twanging her enormous web as she sprints down it to investigate your head coz you walked into her web. First time you realise your private space has been invaded is when you see a magnified hairy leg through your bifocals as you admire the flowers at your feet.

***Of course you over react and stand up and fling your head back and off go the cans...you watch them reach their apogee and sadly you watch their descent knowing full well you wont get there in time before they land in your frog pond.

**** Yes I have a frog pond.

[Happy]

Of course room is the most important one. After all in most cases the real estate is far more expensive than the other components


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[Al.M]

Room is important and the average person is generally stuck with it, in normal circumstance can add some furnishing, soft carpet, curtains, change around speaker layout, which may or may not do much. If you get more serious and pay for right advice acoustically modify it, very few do go to this length particularly at low, mid fi and even hi up.

 

The OP is starting from basic level of not having heard or experienced differences in amps generally.

[Wimbo]

Software,room, front end, Pre, Power, then speakers.

The amp can be very important as well.

17 hours ago, Al.M said:

Further on as you grow out of the mid-fi amps I  started to become more experienced in hearing different amps and gain a better ear for good audio sound and came across amps both integrated and separate pre and power combos, plus tube amps that send you into another world of amp sounds with subjectively even better refined treble, beautiful mids and vocals and tuneful bass. Around this time you start to appreciate that separate pre and power combo appear to sound better for the money, some of the more standout amps out there being Nelson Pass designs, Krell power amps, Naims, KT88 and EL34 based tube amps, some Class D digital amps etc. 

This is pretty well right. Learning how to hear the differences at a HiFi level is very important if you are to progress and spend your money correctly. Of course the most important thing is finding out what type of sound you like. 15 years ago I was a Panel man and now I'm going through that "I wish I was in my 20's again " period and playing Supertramp, Stones, Dingoes, CCR etc and I run a pair of JBL's pretty loud sometimes.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Wimbo

[adamg]

........ accidental post

[rantan]

1 minute ago, adamg said:

Of o ovtott


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I had one of those a while back but the flux inhibitor caused a problem with the hybrid servo facilitator and after that it sounded like crap

[Frameperfect]

Speakers > Room > Amp, is my experience. I was thrilled to take home my floor standers, having spent hours in the shop auditioning and knowing the brand and its competitors quite well. They are in a room with professional treatment comprising of 8 bass traps. This is because the room is around 2.8m x 2.8m or so. With no bass traps the sound will bounce around all the walls in an unpleasant manner. Even with these bass traps, two bookshelves and a rug I am quite unsatisfied. The sound is excellent, but I know these speakers could sound exceptional in a bigger room. They are not meant to be shoved into some back office, they must be liberated, free to sing in an open atmosphere. Unfortunately that room is my circumstance and I have come to somewhat regret my purchase of floor standers when the rational choice was bookshelf speakers. The irony is that after hearing such high quality floor standers, particularly the weight and scale they provide I'm not sure book shelf speakers would be a solution.

 

The moral of the story is two fold. The room matters. And, nothing in audio land is ever perfect and that's the way we like it, at least that's how I feel. 

 

Onto the amp. I will agree with the previous posters. The amplifier does matter to an extent but it suffers from diminishing returns rapidly. There's simply too many needs and too many solutions to provide a monetary formula in evaluating the cost benefit of amplifiers. The best solution is to allow your budget to select the choices and your research to aid your pick. For my amplifier I had a budget and went with a Vincent Integrated. I was able to test through a friend a Cambridge SR10 (600) against a Vincent Seperate system (3500). They both had the features needed, and they both made sound. The difference is at the most 20%. The Vincent's bass, mids and treble were defined. It was like going from a dirt cheap LCD to a nice Samsung. Its not that you can't watch the movie on both, but the latter is crispy, punchy, vibrant and has greater resolution. I went with a Vincent integrated for 2300 after that. Its not my ideal amp, but its 95% of my friends amp for less money. I thought this was the sweet spot. I would prefer a Luxman or Accuphase separates system, and having listened to the Luxman in the shop for several hours I can say its another level of resolution above my Vincent. Another 10% better I would say.

[Jebediah]

On 7/10/2017 at 9:58 PM, JimmyiovinE said:

 

This is true, i only listen to headphones on my pc. 

 

Is it just me, or is all this advice about room treatments and speakers falling on deaf ears 

[rocky500]

3 hours ago, Jebediah said:

 

Is it just me, or is all this advice about room treatments and speakers falling on deaf ears 

I have played around with room treatments for a while and it is not a easy thing.

Just built ones for all corners and it is a subtle improvement.

Changing the power supply in my Singxer was a bigger more noticeable improvement than 7 large panels in the corners.

Edited July 16, 2017 by rocky500

[ppaul]

Room won't make any difference as Jimmy only uses headphones with PC

[JimmyiovinE]

3 hours ago, Jebediah said:

 

Is it just me, or is all this advice about room treatments and speakers falling on deaf ears 

 

Haha, no its not. I will be buying some speakers soon, I'm just still tossing up what to get, and after reading theough here and various other forums I will be going straight to end game and getting a Mcintosh MHA150 which I can also use as a pre amp and a headphone amp that I will chain with my Chord Hugo 2. 

 

They will just be office/desk speakers something like the focal alpha 50's still undecided on that part.

 

[Happy]

I have played around with room treatments for a while and it is not a easy thing.
Just built ones for all corners and it is a subtle improvement.
Changing the power supply in my Singxer was a bigger more noticeable improvement than 7 large panels in the corners.

Corner bass traps need to be pretty aggressive to be effective. For this reason I don't even bother and resort to DSP for bass control.

Have you tried catching the first reflections using the mirror method?


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[Guest rogerthat]

36 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I have played around with room treatments for a while and it is not a easy thing.

Just built ones for all corners and it is a subtle improvement.

Changing the power supply in my Singxer was a bigger more noticeable improvement than 7 large panels in the corners.

 

You need way more panels.

[Guest rogerthat]

 -

Edited July 16, 2017 by rogerthat

[rocky500]

27 minutes ago, Happy said:

Corner bass traps need to be pretty aggressive to be effective. For this reason I don't even bother and resort to DSP for bass control.
Have you tried catching the first reflections using the mirror method?
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It seems a lot treatments are not that effective that you can buy or are very expensive. eg. foam and thinner panels.

I have put treatment at first reflections but did not seem to make much difference.

I have put a bit work into them, so will keep persevering with more.

I see room room room mentioned a lot but it is not a simple thing to do easy and effectively or even cheaply. Plus can change the look of a room very quickly to what only a man could put up with.