Andy,

Just wanted to thank you for the listen yesterday.  A real experience still living in my ears/mind etc.

Terrific integration of no baffle speakers and sub producing a memorable soundstage and a DSP inspiration of what can be achieved.

Loved the class A goodness!

Excellent playlist, company, wine and cheese etc 

Thanks again.

Stephen

32 minutes ago, Artnet said:

Andy,

Just wanted to thank you for the listen yesterday.  A real experience still living in my ears/mind etc.

Terrific integration of no baffle speakers and subs producing a memorable soundstage and a DSP inspiration of what can be achieved.

Loved the class A goodness!

Excellent playlist, company, wine and cheese etc 

Thanks again.

Stephen

 

It was a pleasure, Stephen.  So glad you enjoyed it.  

 

So, now that playing vinyl through Roon - so as to use its 'Convolution' facility to add a 'FIR filter overlay' for my miniDSP-controlled active spkrs (which use standard IIR filters) - is a resounding success ... what improvements can be made?  

 

My 'SkeletaLinn' TT has the latest Linn 'Karousel' bearing (plus the Tiger Paw 'Tranquility' mag lev add-on) ... and the current Panzerholtz skeletal chassis cannot be bettered, IMO.

 

On the surface, yes it's possible to replace my 12" 'Univector' arm and ZYX 'Ultimate Airy' cart ... but:

• I'd like to keep Duc's memory alive by continuing to use his arm
• it would be a gamble whether a new arm would actually sound better
• and ... a better-sounding cart would be an expensive exercise.  

And, just like a new arm/cart ... replacing my Topping E30 DACs is a possibility.  But - given that I need 3 of them - this could be a very expensive exercise!  

 

55 minutes ago, andyr said:

I'd like to keep Duc's memory alive by continuing to use his arm

 

Eww, you are sick! Leave the poor man's arm alone! 

On 12/06/2023 at 9:52 PM, andyr said:

So, now that playing vinyl through Roon - so as to use its 'Convolution' facility to add a 'FIR filter overlay' for my miniDSP-controlled active spkrs (which use standard IIR filters) - is a resounding success ... what improvements can be made?  

 

Aha - well, I've found two!  Relatively inexpensive improvements!  👍

 

#1 is yet to be proven - in that I haven't listened to it yet - but @SonicArt is going to machine me a heavier c'weight (bigger diameter) for my 'Univector' arm ... so its CoG will be much closer to the pivot housing than my current arrangement - which is this:

 

 

 

Theoretically, the CoG being closer to the unipivot ... should reduce the momentum of the c'weight - which should clean up the sound.  We will see!  😃

 

#2 is putting an air-isolation platform under the perspex base-plate of my SkeletaLinn.  This I have tested out by borrowing a bamboo cutting board from @buddyev - plus a set of GAIA III isolating feet - and putting them under the perspex base-plate.  So the perspex base-plate now rested on the isolation platform ... rather than on my benchtop.

 

The main result I was able to hear is that the bass drum in "Yulungu" (from DCD's "Into the Labyrinth") comes out as deeper and more resonant than what I had remembered from playing it last, without the isolation platform.

 

Aah, ye believers in the inadequacy of aural memory beyond 10 seconds - I know you are jumping up and down saying "how TF can he remember what it sounded like, x weeks before"!    But then I recalled that I had ripped a copy of this track (at 24/96) some weeks ago - so I was able to play it ... and compare it to the live-with-iso-platform version!  Sure enough ... the bass drum on the rip was less resonant and less deep!  

 

How very interesting.    Possibly, this is due to the well-known theory that LP12s (and other, sprung TTs) sound better on a light-weight table (a la 'Dekstand' or IKEA 'Lack' table) than on a heavy benchtop?

 

Whatever ... I have embarked on a project to build a lightweight support for my SkeletaLinn!  In homage to the Dekstand I once owned, this support will consist simply of:

• a rectangular frame using the Qubelock aluminium square tube and connectors.  The perspex base of my SkeletaLinn will simply rest on this frame.
• with a squash ball underneath, at each corner.  (As part of my experiment, I removed the GAIA III feet under the cutting board and replaced them with squash balls; I didn't hear any difference to the sound coming from my spkrs.)

 

More to follow in due course!

 

If anyone has any suggestions of what I could use inside the square aluminium tubing - for damping purposes ... I'm all ears.  

 

Edited September 16, 20232 yr by andyr

Stevie Wonder – Hotter Than July - Stevie's last great album. amazing how many great artists seem to just run out of songs at a certain stage - Jimmy Page, Roger Waters

 

 

 

‘with a squash ball underneath, at each corner.  (As part of my experiment, I removed the GAIA III feet under the cutting board and replaced them with squash balls; I didn't hear any difference to the sound coming from my spkrs.)’

 

i hope you’re not suggesting that $10 of squash balls is as good as my expensive $350 high tech isolation units. There goes my resale! 
 

Edited September 16, 20232 yr by buddyev

3 hours ago, metal beat said:

Stevie Wonder – Hotter Than July - Stevie's last great album. amazing how many great artists seem to just run out of songs at a certain stage - Jimmy Page, Roger Waters

 

 

 

 

Great album, Shane - I have it - but I think you've posted on the wrong thread?  

 

2 hours ago, buddyev said:

 

i hope you’re not suggesting that $10 of squash balls is as good as my expensive $350 high tech isolation units. There goes my resale! 
 

 

I'm just a cheapskate, Russ!  

 

And besides ... spkrs need GAIAs - squash balls just won't do.

 

@andyr in the 80's when i had my Linn, i made several prototypes of isolation platforms and frames, the best was an aluminum Y frame 1'' square with all lengths of the Y different, filled with beach sand and 2" inch screws at each end for levelling.

12 hours ago, wen said:

@andyr in the 80's when i had my Linn, i made several prototypes of isolation platforms and frames, the best was an aluminum Y frame 1'' square with all lengths of the Y different, filled with beach sand and 2" inch screws at each end for levelling.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, wen.  👍

 

18 hours ago, andyr said:

How very interesting.    Possibly, this is due to the well-known theory that LP12s (and other, sprung TTs) sound better on a light-weight table (a la 'Dekstand' or IKEA 'Lack' table) than on a heavy benchtop?

 

Whatever ... I have embarked on a project to build a lightweight support for my SkeletaLinn!  In homage to the Dekstand I once owned, this support will consist simply of:

• a rectangular frame using the Qubelock aluminium square tube and connectors.  The perspex base of my SkeletaLinn will simply rest on this frame.
• with a squash ball underneath, at each corner.  (As part of my experiment, I removed the GAIA III feet under the cutting board and replaced them with squash balls; I didn't hear any difference to the sound coming from my spkrs.)

Andy, My Dekstand has been in use for about 40 yrs now. Not sure if it has beneficial impact or not. Just used it because…… 🤷🏽‍♂️😂.
Currently have it on an Auralex turntable/speaker platform that sits on a Lack table. The Auralex platform is a mdf board covered in an acoustic cloth. The board has a 2cm acoustic foam attached to the underside. This platform makes it easier to keep the turntable level. This was a problem with use of other isolation solutions in my situation.

 

I’ve kept using the Lengths of thick felt strips that originally came with the Dekstand. Not sure if those are still needed with the Auralex platform in use.. but may be just hard to break the habit!😂

 
I have always wondered about the impact of filling the Dekstand tubes, but was concerned about use of sand or other heavy fillers. Maybe a foam filler could be sprayed into the cavities. Light but resonance absorbing.🤷🏽‍♂️

 

One other point. Noticed that you intend to rest the Perspex on the frame of the stand. The Dekstand has a “floating” platform that sits on top of the frame. Not sure what impact that has, but wondered about whether a similar concept will be used?

Interested in the outcomes of your endeavours!😊

Thanks for your input, Vivian.

 

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

The board has a 2cm acoustic foam attached to the underside. This platform makes it easier to keep the turntable level. This was a problem with use of other isolation solutions in my situation.

 

My SkeletaLinn has 2-piece supports under each spring (well - each silicone mushroom, now!   ) which I use for levelling the platter; so no problems, there.

 

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

I’ve kept using the Lengths of thick felt strips that originally came with the Dekstand.

 

I never had any felt strips with mine???  Where are you supposed to place them?

 

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

I have always wondered about the impact of filling the Dekstand tubes, but was concerned about use of sand or other heavy fillers. Maybe a foam filler could be sprayed into the cavities. Light but resonance absorbing.🤷🏽‍♂️

 

That's my thought, too.  Heavy fillers are not wanted - as the whole point is a light structure!  

 

That sprayed foam is certainly a thought ... although it might be difficult to judge the right amount - given I have to leave room to fit the legs of the Qubelok connectors in each end.

 

Another possibility is kitty litter.

 

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

One other point. Noticed that you intend to rest the Perspex on the frame of the stand. The Dekstand has a “floating” platform that sits on top of the frame. Not sure what impact that has, but wondered about whether a similar concept will be used?

 

Yes, the Dekstand platform was a foam core with laminate either side.  As you say, the platform simply sat on top of the square-tube frame ... similarly, the perspex base of my SkeletaLinn will simply sit on top of my frame.

 

Well, it's taken a month but the two TT enhancements mentioned above ... are now in place!  👍

 

See here - with the recent MoFi 45rpm version of the 1st Dire Straits LP on the platter:

 

 

 

The c'weight was machined beautifully by Mark ( @SonicArt ) - and, with my current ZYX cart (which is light), is located about as close to the pivot housing as it can be.  (Haha, so I am still able to do mathematical calculations (to work out the required weight) correctly - albeit I now need to use a calculator ... not do it in my head!   )

 

Compare the position of the new c'weight ... to the pic I posted earlier, with the old c'weight:

 

 

 

The lightweight support frame in the 1st pic (which the perspex base of my 'SkeletaLinn' now sits on) deserves some description.  As an LP12 has always been described as sounding better if it sits on a light table (the 'Dekstand' of the 80's ... or the more recent IKEA 'Lack' table), I wanted a lightweight frame for the perspex base to rest on - as per the Dekstand!  Yet, as it is always advised to damp metal tubing ... what should I use?  

 

I'm pretty sure the Dekstand used nothing - but to damp a lightweight structure ... I could've used foam-from-a-can ... or kitty litter.  But @Hawkeye suggested a silicone ring - like what are put round tubes to suppress microphony.  I thought that was a brilliant idea - so that's what I did.  (Renseal, in Dandenong, supply silicone O-rings.)  There is a silicone O-ring around each piece of tubing - 0.618 of the length of the tubing from one end ... the Golden Ratio!  

 

As well as - hopefully - damping the tube, the top of the O-ring provides a nice, compliant yet grippy surface for the perspex base to rest on ... better than it resting on the metal tubing, I reckon!

 

Underneath the Al tubing frame is a squash ball at each corner; these are held in place by:

 

*  a 16mm hole which I cut into each plastic corner-connector - see here:

 

 

 

*  and a plastic milk bottle top under each squash ball (to stop it rolling around).

 

So it's all quite sturdy!  

 

How do the changes affect the sound???

 

I can't say whether what I now hear is due to:

• the c'weight being closer to the pivot-point (so having less momentum)
• or the isolation platform stopping external vibrations from interfering with the signal coming from the grooves

... but the music seems more immediate - as if (in photographic terms), a muslin filter had been taken off the lens ... or, to use a different analogy, a door into the room where the music was being played, which was slightly ajar - had been fully opened!

 

Whatever - I like it!  

 

Great work Andy.

Looks like your expectations were confirmed! 😀😉

3 minutes ago, vivianbl said:

Great work Andy.

Looks like your expectations were confirmed! 😀😉

 

Thank you, Vivian.  👍

 

(Then again ... the 'haters' would always say that expectations - whether buying something ... or making it) are always confirmed!   )

 

Yes, I'm not sure whether the 'immediacy' I hear is due to:

• the fact that having the c'weight much closer to the pivot point means it has less momentum - so the cart will track the groove-wiggles better
• or the isolation platform is preventing external structure-borne vibrations from 'polluting' the signal coming from the grooves!

 

1 minute ago, andyr said:

 

Thank you, Vivian.  👍

 

(Then again ... the 'haters' would always say that expectations - whether buying something ... or making it) are always confirmed!   )

 

Yes, I'm not sure whether the 'immediacy' I hear is due to:

• the fact that having the c'weight much closer to the pivot point means it has less momentum - so the cart will track the groove-wiggles better
• or the isolation platform is preventing external structure-borne vibrations from 'polluting' the signal coming from the grooves!

 

You will have undo everything. Take measurements of something, Before and After, one change at a time.

 

On the other hand, let’s go subjective tests. Some one else will have to be shown how to do and undo the tweaks, while you sit in your listening chair blind folded- blind test!🤓😱

 

On maybe Just enjoy the improvement you can hear😂!🤷🏽‍♂️

Andy.   Luv your work man.

 

 Only one thing is important.  If it sounds better to you, it is better 👍

14 minutes ago, vivianbl said:

You will have undo everything. Take measurements of something, Before and After, one change at a time.

 

Absoloootely NP, Vivian - as long as you can tell me how to measure for "immediacy".  

 

10 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Absoloootely NP, Vivian - as long as you can tell me how to measure for "immediacy".  

 

Surely if it exists, then it can be measured. 
Would it be a construct of “distortion”?

On the other, If it can’t be measured, it does not exist.😀

What we hear is in our head, so we need to  perhaps measure how sound waves impact on our brain waves and synapses. Now that’s a thought!😉

Listening now to Stevie Ray Vaughan “ Double Trouble”. Ominous🤣

It is rather close isnt it I have the fine adjuster ready, will msg you about that.

1 minute ago, SonicArt said:

It is rather close isn't it I have the fine adjuster ready, will msg you about that.

 

It's purrfect, Mark!  👍

 

Nice job Andy

23 hours ago, vivianbl said:

Surely if it exists, then it can be measured. 
Would it be a construct of “distortion”?

On the other, If it can’t be measured, it does not exist.😀

What we hear is in our head, so we need to  perhaps measure how sound waves impact on our brain waves and synapses. Now that’s a thought!😉

Listening now to Stevie Ray Vaughan “ Double Trouble”. Ominous🤣

"Surely if it exists, then it can be measured".

Quite possibly, but perhaps the means to measure "it" hasn't yet been discovered or invented? Many , many examples from scientific research in recent years demonstrate this. If something can't be measured at this point in time, that doesn't mean that "it does not exist", just that we can't/don't measure it right now.

"Not all that matters can be measured. Not all that can be measured matters".

 

The "immediacy" which @andyr heard and enjoyed? That, like the other things which music does for us (the benefits of our musical enjoyment for our emotional and mental wellbeing etc) may not be able to be measured (yet?) but these things are amongst the most important reasons why we enjoy music, and why each of us has different musical tastes.

 

I think that you (@vivianbl) nailed it in your sentence "What we hear is in our head .....etc", and when you suggested in your earlier post "Just enjoy the improvement which you can hear".

As @andyr stated above - "Whatever, I like it" and "It's purrfect Mark".

  

That's it - it's as simple as that isn't it?

Edited October 21, 20232 yr by parrasaw

My thoughts exactly, @parrasaw!  👍