"This is my system. There are many like it, but this one is mine!'

 

Proud of my first setup. Have wanted to be in a position to build something for years. I'm in a rental so do what I can regarding limitations of the room...and budget.

 

Bossendorfer VC7s speakers, Willsenton R8 (KT88s) with full Skunkie mods, Audiolab 9000CDT transport and Wiim Ultra streamer.

 

Looking to improve the treatment of the room as I can. Any obvious suggestions welcomed!

maybe a bigger thick rug. put a nice underlay underneath also.

Thanks.  I was considering that.  

From research, the Bossendorfers are considering 'lively' and respond best without too much acoustic treatment.

Thought I'd post and see what people think.

Cheers

 

You could experiment by moving your sofa more forward.

Thanks for the suggestion.

When I first setup the speakers I had them well away from the walls and about 2 metres apart, thinking this was what you do (I'm still learning). 

The sound was pretty disappointing.  No bottom end and I had to literally put my head between the speakers to get anything close to a soundstage.

Further research and I discovered side firing speakers can benefit from actually being positioned close to walls, but without furniture/items between them. 
As I said, I'm still learning so this may not be the case with all speakers designed this way.

Again, from research, Bossendorfers (now under the Brodmann name) can be fussy with placement and toe in. 
I've played around with this and, from my relatively novice ears, notice the difference in even small adjustments.

Long way in saying, moving the couch forward is something I haven't really tried yet. 
Due to the limited wall space on both sides of the room I've been reluctant to move the speakers any more forward.

If Mohammed won't go to the mountain, I guess the mountain has to go to Mohammad!

 

 Thanks again

 

 

Severe lack of bass and extremely poor imaging can be due to speakers being out of phase. Everyone has done it at least once if not more times. Worth checking your speaker cables are +ve to +ve at amp and speaker on both sides.

Initially, my 1st recommendation, when it comes to introducing room treatment, would be..............

 

Divorce is your first and best option.    From there on, you are on Audio easy street. 👍😱

 

Good luck with the conversation.   

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

PS.  I am just presuming you are married because the house looks so neat. 🙈

Sorry for the above. 😋

 

With the door opening on one side and a window on the other, my first recommendation would be to build some simple, portable 'first-reflection' panels that can be moved into place as required.   

 

The first-reflection panels will quickly have an impact on cleaning up the sound and help with imaging.    

 

There are plenty of youtube vids.    Cheap to build and easy to hide for the WAF!   You can make them any size and with the smallish speaker cones your speakers have, they can be relatively small in design.

 

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

Hey - Cazzesman - appreciate your posts and help.  Made me laugh.

Was married and now striking out on my own, so either way, the stereotypical audiophile male holds true!

I'll look into making those panels.  From a quick search, prices for acoustic treatment seem crazy considering what they're made from.

I suppose you're paying for the technical knowledge and design that went into them, or maybe just another way to suck money from Hi-Fi geeks.

Were you suggesting I place the panels in front of the window and between the arch on the other side?

I understand panels can be used for both absorption and deflection and that choice and placement are important when looking to improve a room's acoustics.

I know the TV is flat but would it replicate some of the benefits i see from panels placed on the wall between speakers?

Cheers

Hi Sijo, it is a good subject to ask about!

 

I see some good things already in your setup: some heavy furnishings including drapes and sofa; a rug over some of the bare floor; speakers and seat symmetrically positioned. 

 

There are also a few less positive things: a lot of bare floor; asymmetrical left and right side walls, both with regard to the absence of wall on one side and the absorbent curtains on one side; a high proportion of reflective walls and a very low amount of diffusion surface area.

 

My first tips would be to: leave about 1.2m of blank wall at the locations of the first lateral reflections from the front loudspeakers (the science indicates this is a net positive); put absorbers at least 50mm thick on the wall behind the speakers (the central section between the speakers and behind the TV) and on the wall behind the listener's head; add more rugs on the floor and put heavy felt underlay under all floor rugs, at least 1.4 kg/m2; check that walls facing each other do not present opportunities for flutter echoes, and where they do, add diffusors and/or absorbers to one of the opposing walls.

 

cheers

Grant

1 hour ago, Grant Slack said:

My first tips would be to: leave about 1.2m of blank wall at the locations of the first lateral reflections from the front loudspeakers (the science indicates this is a net positive); put absorbers at least 50mm

 

IIRC this member had a similar thread about (see link) dealing with these particular speakers—and the manufacturer's specifications for placement were quite specific (asking for corner loading, iirc).

Putting absorbers, reflectors or diffusers in various locations without guidance by measurements seems to me a (potentially costly and labourious) stab in the dark.

 

I love the look of those speakers but do wonder how much bass a cabinet of that shape and size can be expected to, or was designed to produce.

Edited August 30, 2025Aug 30 by Steff

On 29/08/2025 at 4:57 PM, sijo1974 said:

Thanks for the suggestion.

When I first setup the speakers I had them well away from the walls and about 2 metres apart, thinking this was what you do (I'm still learning). 

The sound was pretty disappointing.  No bottom end and I had to literally put my head between the speakers to get anything close to a soundstage.

Further research and I discovered side firing speakers can benefit from actually being positioned close to walls, but without furniture/items between them. 
As I said, I'm still learning so this may not be the case with all speakers designed this way.

Again, from research, Bossendorfers (now under the Brodmann name) can be fussy with placement and toe in. 
I've played around with this and, from my relatively novice ears, notice the difference in even small adjustments.

Long way in saying, moving the couch forward is something I haven't really tried yet. 
Due to the limited wall space on both sides of the room I've been reluctant to move the speakers any more forward.

If Mohammed won't go to the mountain, I guess the mountain has to go to Mohammad!

 

 Thanks again

 

 

 

Windows AI result

 

First reflection acoustic panels should be placed at ear level on the side walls, where sound first reflects off before reaching the listener. You can find these points using the "mirror trick," where you sit in your listening position and have someone move a mirror along the wall until you can see the speakers in it.   soundassured.com   decosoundpanel.com

 

Understanding First Reflection Points 

 

First reflection points are areas where sound waves first bounce off surfaces before reaching the listener's ears. Proper placement of acoustic panels at these points can significantly improve sound quality by reducing echoes and enhancing clarity.

 

How to Identify First Reflection Points

 

Use the Mirror Trick:

Sit in your listening position.

Have a friend move a mirror along the side walls.

Mark the spots where you can see the speakers in the mirror. These are your first reflection points.

 

Consider the Ceiling:

The ceiling above your listening position is also a critical reflection point. Use the same mirror technique to identify this area.

 

Recommended Placement for Acoustic Panels

 

Location Height Notes

 

Side WallsEar level (4-5 feet)   Place panels where first reflections occur.

Rear Wall Ear level  Absorb reflections from the speakers.

Ceiling Above listening position Treat the area directly above the listener.

CornersFloor to ceiling   Use bass traps to manage low-frequency buildup.

 

Additional Tips 

 

Panel Size: Use larger panels for broader coverage, especially if you have larger speakers.

Spacing: Ensure panels on opposite walls are aligned to maximize sound absorption.

Avoid Over-Absorption: Balance absorption with diffusion to maintain room liveliness.

By strategically placing acoustic panels at these first reflection points, you can create a more controlled and pleasant listening environment.

 decosoundpanel.com primacoustic.com

 

The Mirror Trick works well.   You might need a mate to help.   Size wise - may I suggest - measure from top cone to top of speaker.   Say it is 250 mm.    Take that measurement and measure from bottom cone down 250mm.   Have the panel that total distance from the top of the speaker down to 250mm below the bottom cone.     Maybe 600mm wide.

 

The idea of the 1st reflection is to absorb the frequencies and not let it bounce off any surface to your ears.    That way, the only sound your ears pick up on are those coming from the cones and not a milisec delay bouncing off a wall etc. 

 

Likewise, a thick carpet, as suggested, infront of the speakers, to stop floor reflection.     

 

I used Tontine  Acoustisorb 3

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

This is my room.

 

Regards Cazzesman

Thanks again Cazzesman - appreciate the continued advice.  

 

Our new AI overlords really do improve out lives!   Will be fun to build the DIY panels and work with placement.

 

cheers

 

On 31/8/2025 at 10:15 AM, sijo1974 said:

Our new AI overlords really do improve out lives! 

Only as long as some poor devil does the hard grafting and fact checks every single one of the recommendations from the AI overlord, of which it is completely unknowable which ones are correct and which ones are frankly completely wrong without doing said fact check.

 

If you think that is an improvement to our lives, may I suggest at this point it is nothing more than an additional unnecessary nuisance.

 

Personally, I would be thankful, and I think it would be a great service to the forum, if people would stop cutting and pasting AI answers to questions that people put to this forum. Unless they open a specific thread called "AI answers to audio questions, with fact checks."

 

Cheers,

Grant.

Edited September 1, 2025Sep 1 by Grant Slack

On 30/8/2025 at 6:22 PM, cazzesman said:

The idea of the 1st reflection is to absorb the frequencies and not let it bounce off any surface to your ears.    That way, the only sound your ears pick up on are those coming from the cones and not a milisec delay bouncing off a wall etc. 

 

…and yet the audio research indicates that for stereo playback it is a net sonic positive to leave the first reflection points reflective. And if your answer starts with "but AI" then I will answer with a shrug!

 

Cheers,

Grant.

16 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:

 

…and yet the audio research indicates that for stereo playback it is a net sonic positive to leave the first reflection points reflective. And if your answer starts with "but AI" then I will answer with a shrug!

 

Cheers,

Grant.

I am not sure what audio research you are referring to.  Almost all the knowledgeable people I know will recommend treating the first reflection points as a priority.

3 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

 

…and yet the audio research indicates that for stereo playback it is a net sonic positive to leave the first reflection points reflective. And if your answer starts with "but AI" then I will answer with a shrug!

 

Cheers,

Grant.

 

Grant I wouldn't dream about suggesting AI Said.   I am just going with personal experience and alot of reading on Acoustic treatment before I went down the rabbit hole.     

 

And might I add, that engineering studios around the world might also have some thoughts on the matter about 1st reflection.

 

Just my 2 cents.    Nothing more or less.    Sijo asked for some suggestions, and I offered some.

 

As for me cutting and pasting something from AI.......................your comment was unnecessary.       Just like you have opinions, AI is just another opinion, but it is collated from the thoughts of millions of people from around the world. 

 

I'm not sure why my advice or your advice or AI's advice can be seen as anything more that just that.   It's Advice. 

 

Who is fact-checking the advice that you or I might proffer?    Advice in all forms is what many people seek here on SNA.    When you get it, you do with as you deem fit.  

 

Regards Cazzesman

5 hours ago, MrC said:

I am not sure what audio research you are referring to.  Almost all the knowledgeable people I know will recommend treating the first reflection points as a priority.

For stereo, I'm pretty sure the Harman guys say to leave the first side reflection points alone to widen the soundstage, if not the just treat them lightly with diffusion and maybe a little absorption. This of course assumes good off axis horizontal response that matches well with the on axis response. If the speakers are lesser with relatively poor non-matching off axis horizontal response, then one can consider more side wall treatment. The Kii Three speakers as in the photo have anything but poor off axis horizontal response, in fact it is a designed feature of how good it is, up there with best.

Edited September 1, 2025Sep 1 by Satanica
Spelling

On 30/8/2025 at 6:22 PM, cazzesman said:

Windows AI result

 

First reflection acoustic panels should be placed at ear level on the side walls, where sound first reflects off before reaching the listener....

 

8 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

…and yet the audio research indicates that for stereo playback it is a net sonic positive to leave the first reflection points reflective. And if your answer starts with "but AI" then I will answer with a shrug!

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

Grant I wouldn't dream about suggesting AI Said.   

🤷‍♂️

 

.....😊 😊 😊

 

Hi Cazzesman,

 

I am not sure how your two posts above sit with each other? But my comment, about your reply starting with a reference to AI, was purely because your most recent reply had done exactly that, and was given in good humour! 

 

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

I am just going with personal experience and alot of reading on Acoustic treatment before I went down the rabbit hole.     And might I add, that engineering studios around the world might also have some thoughts on the matter about 1st reflection. Just my 2 cents.    Nothing more or less.    Sijo asked for some suggestions, and I offered some.

As for me cutting and pasting something from AI.......................your comment was unnecessary.       

OK it is starting to look like you have taken offence, so I apologise if it looked like anything other than a bit of fun with over-reliance on AI.

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

Just like you have opinions, AI is just another opinion,

Hang on, we don't want to start anthropomorphising an algorithm, as if it can hold opinions! 🤔😆

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

but it is collated from the thoughts of millions of people from around the world. 

You mean stolen.

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

I'm not sure why my advice or your advice or AI's advice can be seen as anything more that just that.   It's Advice. 

Well, it's more than that for the obvious reason: some of it might be wrong.

 

That is why there is a hierarchy of evidence. 

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

Who is fact-checking the advice that you or I might proffer?   

I only give advice that fairly reflects the views that research scientists have drawn from gold standard research. The top of the hierarchy of evidence. In this case, Floyd Toole. @MrC to note.

 

4 hours ago, cazzesman said:

Advice in all forms is what many people seek here on SNA.    When you get it, you do with as you deem fit.  

That's why most of it is bad advice. I don't endorse that approach. Why should I?

 

cheers

Grant

Edited September 1, 2025Sep 1 by Grant Slack

Grant I think your belief that you only

 

 Give advice that fairly reflects the views that research scientists have drawn from gold standard research. 
 

would need to be fact checked.     But maybe that just me.     I think your scientific advice is being missed on ASR.

 

Happy listening.

 

Regards Cazzesman

Some points to make. 

 

1. Don't deploy room treatments without the help of a measurement microphone. There is a very high risk that you will skew your room response by deploying treatment willy-nilly. The thickness and density of the foam determines what frequencies will be absorbed, and by how much. The total attenuation also depends on the total surface area. Foam typically absorbs short wavelengths (higher freqs) whilst leaving long wavelengths alone. If you simply slap room treatment on without knowing what you are doing, the result will be: muted, dead sounding top end with bloated tubby bass. I have been to many listening rooms like this. 

 

2. The target RT60 for your room varies according to room volume (larger room = higher RT60), application (studio = lower RT60, listening = higher RT60), and personal preference. 

 

3. This target is achievable in most listening rooms without any room treatment. All you need is normal furniture. 

 

The "less reflections! More reflections!" debate has been going on for a long time, and that is because it has not been backed up by proper controlled psychoacoustic studies. In general, there are two camps with opposing philosophies - the first camp believes that "the room creates the soundstage". If you believe this, then you want wider radiating speakers and less room treatment, if not none. The second camp believes that "the soundstage is in the recording". If this is you, then you want narrower directivity and more room treatment. Toole is in the former camp, and people like Griesinger and Choueri are in the latter camp. 

 

FWIW I met David at Selby Acoustics over the weekend at the SNA show. He is an acoustician, and we got into an interesting chat about how he recommends products. He manually calculates what is needed. I asked him whether he uses EASE (professional acoustics software which requires a $3000/year subscription) and he said it's too expensive. So I showed him a free open source alternative. 

 

In short: DON'T DIY your own room treatment unless you know what you are doing, and especially DON'T try to do it without a microphone. You need to know what the problem frequencies are, and determine the products you need by calculation. You can get 90% there with a few simple measurements, but for best results - hire an acoustician. 

Why can't people DIY their own treatment?   It is their money.   It is their ears.   Surely, people can spend a small amount of money and 'Give it a whirl'.   No harm, no foul.   If it sounds worse, such is life.   If it sounds okay, then woohoo.

 

I'm sorry Sijo, that it has come to this.    Read it all and work out what works best for your circumstances. 

 

In the world of Internet forum's please remember.........."Opinions aren't facts".     Sometimes facts might not even be facts because for every fact raised, someone will present their own expert, who will argue an opposite fact.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

Sure. Just like you can DIY your own parachute. 

 

I'm not saying that he can't. I'm suggesting that if he's going to do that, he needs to learn a bit about how it works. 

Edited September 2, 2025Sep 2 by Keith_W

Hey everyone,

Wow, my room treatment thread turned into an AI cage match! 😄 Thanks for all the passionate input—cazzesman, Grant, MrC, Satanica, and the whole crew. I’m loving the debate, but I think my speakers are getting jealous of all the attention AI’s stealing!

So, I asked my new AI overlord (let’s call it Grok the Room Whisperer) for advice, and it suggested I cover my walls in velvet, hang disco balls for diffusion, and train my cat to sit perfectly still as a bass trap. I mean, who am I to argue with a million stolen—er, collated—opinions? 😜 But don’t worry, Grant, I’ll fact-check that with Floyd Toole and my cat before I start redecorating.

I’m gonna build those DIY panels (thanks, cazzesman!) and play with placement, maybe leaving those first reflections alone for that sweet soundstage vibe (nod to Satanica and Grant). If it all goes wrong, I’ll just blame AI and tell it to take a hike… or a byte. 😎

Cheers for the wisdom, and let’s keep the good vibes (and soundwaves) flowing!

Sijo