Vinyl vs streaming

[sir sanders zingmore]

6 minutes ago, POV said:

 

The gangup/bullying vibe of this thread is pretty embarrassing.   Someone dares offer up an opinion different from the standard think of the forum and gets laughed at and ganged up on.  If people want to argue the point, or share their own views and expereince then more power to them.  If the objective is simply to make people wrong, or worse to belittle them and their opinions then I fail to see what utility it has. 

 

Already addressed earlier in the thread. There's no need to bring it up again 

 

On 04/04/2024 at 3:38 PM, sir sanders zingmore said:

If someone prefers one format over another that’s perfectly fine. 
If you disagree with them, that’s fine too. 
What isn’t fine is to accuse them of trolling or having hearing problems or being clueless. 
Be kind in your interactions please. 

 

[POV]

11 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Already addressed earlier in the thread. There's no need to bring it up again 

 

 

 

Trevor I was recently threatened (by you) with a ban for some moderately off topic light hearted banter.  But then you allow this type of gang-up.  And questioning mods is a capital offense.  

[sir sanders zingmore]

5 minutes ago, POV said:

 

Trevor I was recently threatened (by you) with a ban for some moderately off topic light hearted banter.  But then you allow this type of gang-up.  And questioning mods is a capital offense.  

The point is (as per my quoted post from myself)  I agree with you and the "gang up" is actually not allowed.

It's been called out already, there's no need to bring it up again

 

EDIT: also please don't misrepresent the rules around questioning mods. This is what the relevant rule actually states

Quote

Public Criticism of Moderation actions is not permitted.
It’s OK to disagree with the actions of the Administration or Volunteer Moderators, just not in public. Instead, make contact using the Support options provided below. Please appreciate that you may not have the whole story behind the decision. 

 

[mharvan]

29 minutes ago, POV said:

 

The gangup/bullying vibe of this thread is pretty embarrassing.   Someone dares offer up an opinion different from the standard think of the forum and gets laughed at and ganged up on.  If people want to argue the point, or share their own views and expereince then more power to them.  If the objective is simply to make people wrong, or worse to belittle them and their opinions then I fail to see what utility it has. 

most of the nerd-boys that get into that tribal 'my way is best you are all wrong'- just plain forgot that music is supposed be fun

[Snoopy8]

8 hours ago, mharvan said:

any advice on what to look for in streamer? 

If you had posted this, rather than  poking the vinyl bear, you would have gotten more suggestions.  The key to a good streamer is the power supply. People have reported gains by adding linear power supplies to streamers such as a BlueSound Node, a Lumin U1 Mini. A more expensive streamer has better power supplies.

 

And if you use USB, a good USB regenerator like Gieseler Reinigen,  can dramatically improve even a noisy PC.

 

A third way is to get a streamer/DAC, thus eliminating the cable and all the experiments with matching streamer, DAC, type of connection, quality of cable.  A BlueSound Node is a decent start but when you get to a Auralic Altair G1 or a Lumin D2, you will hear a difference.  A used one is good value.  

[mharvan]

37 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

If you had posted this, rather than  poking the vinyl bear, you would have gotten more suggestions.  The key to a good streamer is the power supply. People have reported gains by adding linear power supplies to streamers such as a BlueSound Node, a Lumin U1 Mini. A more expensive streamer has better power supplies.

 

And if you use USB, a good USB regenerator like Gieseler Reinigen,  can dramatically improve even a noisy PC.

 

A third way is to get a streamer/DAC, thus eliminating the cable and all the experiments with matching streamer, DAC, type of connection, quality of cable.  A BlueSound Node is a decent start but when you get to a Auralic Altair G1 or a Lumin D2, you will hear a difference.  A used one is good value.  

Perhaps. I must claim ignorance on this whole vinyl vs digital catfight. I genuinely thought a basis for comparison would provide necessary context rather than fuel for a silly argument. it was a given for many years that Vinyl was the gold standard for home stereo/hifi  with countless articles and advertising dollars devoted to it for decades. 

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, mharvan said:

Perhaps. I must claim ignorance on this whole vinyl vs digital catfight. I genuinely thought a basis for comparison would provide necessary context rather than fuel for a silly argument. it was a given for many years that Vinyl was the gold standard for home stereo/hifi  with countless articles and advertising dollars devoted to it for decades. 

You seem more determined to fuel the vinyl wars than look at the suggestions that I posted.  Good luck in your hunt...

[POV]

4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The key to a good streamer is the power supply. People have reported gains by adding linear power supplies to streamers such as a BlueSound Node, a Lumin U1 Mini. A more expensive streamer has better power supplies.

 

I see this posted here a bit and frankly I never understand it.  Power supplies matter, to a degree, but certainly they are not the key to a good streamer.  Messing about with adding so called linear power supplies to components is likely to yield a very low return on investment (if any) and of course it runs the risk of making the component worse, particularly with digital components where you take a high instantaneous current switching power supply out and add a (so called) linear power supply in.  I think if folks in a position where they think that replacing the power supply in a hi-fi component is necessary they should just buy a better component to begin with that includes a suitably designed power supply.

 

4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

And if you use USB, a good USB regenerator like Gieseler Reinigen,  can dramatically improve even a noisy PC.

 

USB reclockers/regenerators are unnecessary and really don't achieve anything. USB data transfer for audio is asynchronous, meaning that there is no clock signal and the clocking is done within the receiving device. As has been discussed here many times in recent history, jitter is for all intents and purposes a solved problem.  The rationale seems to be that USB data transfer introduces jitter, hence the demand for so-called reclockers, but it really verifiably doesn't in the vast majority of circumstances. All you need is a well designed DAC and let it do it's thing. If a re-clocker is verifiably making an audible difference then there is a problem with the DAC design in question and folks would be better served spending their money on a suitably designed DAC than stuffing about with USB reclockers/regenerators.  My advice is to avoid manufacturers that sell USB regenerators as a rule.

 

[Addicted to music]

39 minutes ago, POV said:

 

I see this posted here a bit and frankly I never understand it.  Power supplies matter, to a degree, but certainly they are not the key to a good streamer.  Messing about with adding so called linear power supplies to components is likely to yield a very low return on investment (if any) and of course it runs the risk of making the component worse, particularly with digital components where you take a high instantaneous current switching power supply out and add a (so called) linear power supply in.  I think if folks in a position where they think that replacing the power supply in a hi-fi component is necessary they should just buy a better component to begin with that includes a suitably designed power supply.

 

When you read that Linear PSU insertion is better than the SMPS.   It’s subjective.   Measurements can sometimes tell a different story.

 

40 minutes ago, POV said:

USB reclockers/regenerators are unnecessary and really don't achieve anything. USB data transfer for audio is asynchronous, meaning that there is no clock signal and the clocking is done within the receiving device. As has been discussed here many times in recent history, jitter is for all intents and purposes a solved problem.  The rationale seems to be that USB data transfer introduces jitter, hence the demand for so-called reclockers, but it really verifiably doesn't in the vast majority of circumstances. All you need is a well designed DAC and let it do it's thing. If a re-clocker is verifiably making an audible difference then there is a problem with the DAC design in question and folks would be better served spending their money on a suitably designed DAC than stuffing about with USB reclockers/regenerators.  My advice is to avoid manufacturers that sell USB regenerators as a rule.

 

when I got onto SNA,  jitter was the talk of the town, reclocking devices appeared everywhere,  some members who are no longer with us on this site was making all sorts of claims but what was interesting was this one.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-empirical-audio-synchro-mesh.7062/

[Snoopy8]

5 minutes ago, POV said:

 

I see this posted here a bit and frankly I never understand it.  Power supplies matter, to a degree, but certainly they are not the key to a good streamer.  Messing about with adding so called linear power supplies to components is likely to yield a very low return on investment (if any) and of course it runs the risk of making the component worse, particularly with digital components where you take a high instantaneous current switching power supply out and add a (so called) linear power supply in.  I think if folks in a position where they think that replacing the power supply in a hi-fi component is necessary they should just buy a better component to begin with that includes a suitably designed power supply.

 

 

USB reclockers/regenerators are unnecessary and really don't achieve anything. USB data transfer for audio is asynchronous, meaning that there is no clock signal and the clocking is done within the receiving device. As has been discussed here many times in recent history, jitter is for all intents and purposes a solved problem.  The rationale seems to be that USB data transfer introduces jitter, hence the demand for so-called reclockers, but it really verifiably doesn't in the vast majority of circumstances. All you need is a well designed DAC and let it do it's thing. If a re-clocker is verifiably making an audible difference then there is a problem with the DAC design in question and folks would be better served spending their money on a suitably designed DAC than stuffing about with USB reclockers/regenerators.  My advice is to avoid manufacturers that sell USB regenerators as a rule.

I do wonder whether you have even tried a linear power supply with a streamer and a very good USB generator.  I have used an LPS with a SOtM SMS-200 standard and Ultra, 2 different NUCs and a Mercury V2 Streamer. I own an Innuos Phoenix Reclocker and have it side with a Gieseler Reinigen (and I agree lower end USB Reclockers, like Uptone ISO Regen, which I had, may not work).  And it happens that I am feeding a Kii Three (with its not well designed DACs ???). 

 

That has been my personal experience. I do not expect everyone to believe me, but it seems to me  that the crowd that say "a well designed DAC is all you need in the digital chain" consider this blasphemy and want my experience verified. That in turn sets of yet another war, which I will decline to participate. No more posts from me here...

[Xecuter]

On 03/04/2024 at 2:33 PM, brodricj said:

 

Spotify murders vinyl at my place, and is competitive with everything else. It wins hands down for delivering me new music to listen too.

For the record - hehehe

For me it wasn't so much the claim that he made that in his house, with his system he prefers spotify over vinyl. That is fine and he is entitled to that opinion. But what shocked me, what i found so strange, which was not in line with most of the audio forums or anecdotes from those I trust or my own experience etc, Was that he said spotify is 'competitive with everything else'.

This person apparently owns the esoteric grandioso transport, one of the best digital transports on the planet and one of my all time favourites and he thinks his spotify is competitive? These days Spotify is regarded as probably one of the worst digital streaming services for audiophiles, across any decent audio conversation. There are technical reasons but you can find a lot of this online.

 

I was reprimanded for my comment and moved on with trying to better understand @brodricj gear and preferences. But since POV brought it up again, I was not so much bothered by him preferring spotify over vinyl, it was him saying it was competitive with everything else. Which very few people would agree with.

 

Yes it is about the listening, sure it's all subjective. But there are some objective truths here too and if you can have the extra information and a higher quality stream and you have the gear to warrant it.. Why would you limit your experience?

If you don't hear the difference that also doesn't mean it's not there.

 

my 2c

 

 

[Moon 600i V2]

I left the Steve Hoffman Forums to get away from this nonsense. I have a system that I curated for me and I don't care what anyone else thinks about it. Jeez, what happened to people? I have friends with systems that I like and a few that I don't. They all like their own situation. I don't have to live with what I consider to be the bad ones so I stay in my lane. I don't envy the good ones either. To each his own I say. However, I don't lend records to to people who don't have a clue about setup, maintenance or wear. My generosity of spirit has a practical limit. I'm not looking for sainthood. My wife would kill that in her character reference anyway.

[Godot]

59 minutes ago, Moon 600i V2 said:

However, I don't lend records to to people who don't have a clue about setup, maintenance or wear. My generosity of spirit has a practical limit

Yep, I’ve got friends who have been offended by my refusal to lend them a record. They know how I look after my equipment and clean and store my records. Yet they don’t understand why I won’t lend them a record to play on their sub $100 Bluetooth all in one record player in their house that is full of dog hair from two large dogs. 
I have advised them to stick to streaming Spotify, it will sound better. 

[Addicted to music]

9 minutes ago, Godot said:

Yep, I’ve got friends who have been offended by my refusal to lend them a record. They know how I look after my equipment and clean and store my records. Yet they don’t understand why I won’t lend them a record to play on their sub $100 Bluetooth all in one record player in their house that is full of dog hair from two large dogs. 
I have advised them to stick to streaming Spotify, it will sound better. 

Agreed,  records and CD are a fragile collection, I’m the same, I don’t lend to anyone, even my son, who asked me if he can borrowed Pink Floyd Dark side of the moon, that’s a reference production, no way!   Get your own copy!   Same goes with tools,  

I only lend tools if I know they have been beaten up or are cheap and I don’t care about,  I’ve seen people use tools and if it’s not there’s they complain about power,  if you need powerful tools get your own, this is what I have and I’ve used for the last X yrs and done 100s of jobs with it,  music collection is on a whole different level.

Edited April 6 by Addicted to music

[POV]

10 hours ago, Xecuter said:

For the record - hehehe

For me it wasn't so much the claim that he made that in his house, with his system he prefers spotify over vinyl. That is fine and he is entitled to that opinion. But what shocked me, what i found so strange, which was not in line with most of the audio forums or anecdotes from those I trust or my own experience etc, Was that he said spotify is 'competitive with everything else'.

This person apparently owns the esoteric grandioso transport, one of the best digital transports on the planet and one of my all time favourites and he thinks his spotify is competitive? These days Spotify is regarded as probably one of the worst digital streaming services for audiophiles, across any decent audio conversation. There are technical reasons but you can find a lot of this online.

 

I was reprimanded for my comment and moved on with trying to better understand @brodricj gear and preferences. But since POV brought it up again, I was not so much bothered by him preferring spotify over vinyl, it was him saying it was competitive with everything else. Which very few people would agree with.

 

Yes it is about the listening, sure it's all subjective. But there are some objective truths here too and if you can have the extra information and a higher quality stream and you have the gear to warrant it.. Why would you limit your experience?

If you don't hear the difference that also doesn't mean it's not there.

 

my 2c

 

 

 

Fair enough and entitled to that view (though it can be made without bullying the OP) Mine is that the differences between streaming services are overblown, and not as significant as is is made out.  That's not to say they don't sound different, in fact they objectively do sound different just not as much as is made out on forums like this.

 

One thing that's of interest to me, is that the focus is typically on the bit rate (eg 320 kbps vs losselss vs high res) but little attention is given to the compression algorithms used (eg OGG Vorbis vs AAC vs FLAC vs ALAC).  In practice from my experiments it's actually the variability between the algorithms than the data rates that is most noticeable (once at 320kbps and above)  If one wants to test this for themselves it's easy enough to do with a toolset like DB Poweramp and take a high res file and convert to multiple bit rates and then compare them.  With a good quality recording on a very high resolution system that you are familiar with it is (very) difficult to discern a difference between 16/44.1  320kbps MP3 and 24/192 losseless...very difficult.  I find when I demonstrate this to people they are routinely very surprised.

 

However, if you take a high res file from the same mastering and compare between say TIDAL FLAC and Apple Music ALAC there is a noticable difference between volume and particular dynamics of tracks.  This is why I suspect that some people prefer one streaming service over another and why it's not consistent across audiophiles.

 

This is a long way of saying, that it's entirely possible that some people will actually prefer the rendering of tracks via Spotify (or any other service) for their music tastes, listening preferences, and system repsonse.  By no means is it going to be some kind of universal rule.  I tend to think that typical audiophile think, which is often shared on mass on forums should be viewed with caution.   I think there is a type of 'group think' that is present through these discussions where folks believe what they believe (at least to some degree) because it's the common belief, re-enforced by being repeated again and again.

Edited April 6 by POV

[POV]

12 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

I do wonder whether you have even tried a linear power supply with a streamer and a very good USB generator.  I have used an LPS with a SOtM SMS-200 standard and Ultra, 2 different NUCs and a Mercury V2 Streamer. I own an Innuos Phoenix Reclocker and have it side with a Gieseler Reinigen (and I agree lower end USB Reclockers, like Uptone ISO Regen, which I had, may not work).  And it happens that I am feeding a Kii Three (with its not well designed DACs ???). 

 

That has been my personal experience. I do not expect everyone to believe me, but it seems to me  that the crowd that say "a well designed DAC is all you need in the digital chain" consider this blasphemy and want my experience verified. That in turn sets of yet another war, which I will decline to participate. No more posts from me here...

 

Yeah I've been designing and testing power supplies for over 20 years for audio, communication, and network applications.   Linear power supplies are typically actually not linear, and sorry but (assuming we are talking about a suitably designed PS) I simply don't accept that they have as big an influence on the outcome as is being made out.  Certainly they are not as was quoted 'the key to a good streamer'.

 

Can't comment on the DAC in the Kii Three as have no experience with it, but yes it sounds like there may be issues with it's USB circuit design and implementation from what you are describing.  I never know what you mean with the comments about wanting verification.  You are making claims about power supplies and USB reclockers that I think are verifiably incorrect and I'm simply stating that.  No war footing here, just a sharing of discussion on an audio forum....

Edited April 6 by POV

[cheekyboy]

17 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

A third way is to get a streamer/DAC, thus eliminating the cable and all the experiments with matching streamer, DAC, type of connection, quality of cable.  A BlueSound Node is a decent start but when you get to a Auralic Altair G1 or a Lumin D2, you will hear a difference.  A used one is good value.  

 

Hello Snoopy8, I was just reading back through this thread and your recommendations for a streamer/DAC for @mharvan are spot on. I bought BlueSound Node streamers for my eldest daughter and also for my brother and they use these with no additional DAC and the playback quality they achieve is very good indeed and I would also highly recommend them to the OP. 

 

My first venture into streamed music was around 17-18 years ago with the Logitech Squeezebox 3, which I still have two of, but they're no longer used. For many years I also streamed music via my Oppo 105 using the Oppo Media app. Sound quality from both the SB3 and the Oppo 105 was more than satisfactory and they gave great service over many years. I was also using an Auralic Mini streamer/DAC up until around 5-6 years ago and the SQ was excellent from this unit, however, I found the app interface very clunky and it was Apple centric too, which might not be for everyone. I've been using the Bel Canto e-Stream for the last 6 years or so and I can't see me looking beyond the performance of this unit. The biggest shift in performance of my streamed music though, was when I introduced a separate Bel Canto DAC to the e-Stream and I was both surprised and very pleased at the lift in SQ.

 

The BlueSound Node would be a very good option for the OP to start with and then they can decide whether they want to go down that rabbit hole of chasing improved SQ, which can often be fraught with diminishing returns for the dollars spent.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

[maximus]

@POV "Yeah I've been designing and testing power supplies for over 20 years for audio, communication, and network applications.   Linear power supplies are typically actually not linear, and sorry but (assuming we are talking about a suitably designed PS) I simply don't accept that they have as big an influence on the outcome as is being made out.  Certainly they are not as was quoted 'the key to a good streamer".

 

It also depends on your definition of a good streamer. When adding and LPS to my Lumin T2, it definitely made a difference, especially in body/weight and bass. If it wasn't for the power supply, I would've sold it off long ago. This upgrade cost me $500. 

For me to buy a properly designed dac or in my case an all in one streamer it would've set me back 15k rrp. At the time that was an almost 10k jump to the next level in the Lumin line.

So, in my scenario the addition of an LPS is a no brainer.

 

Frank.

 

 

 

[POV]

2 hours ago, maximus said:

@POV "Yeah I've been designing and testing power supplies for over 20 years for audio, communication, and network applications.   Linear power supplies are typically actually not linear, and sorry but (assuming we are talking about a suitably designed PS) I simply don't accept that they have as big an influence on the outcome as is being made out.  Certainly they are not as was quoted 'the key to a good streamer".

 

It also depends on your definition of a good streamer. When adding and LPS to my Lumin T2, it definitely made a difference, especially in body/weight and bass. If it wasn't for the power supply, I would've sold it off long ago. This upgrade cost me $500. 

For me to buy a properly designed dac or in my case an all in one streamer it would've set me back 15k rrp. At the time that was an almost 10k jump to the next level in the Lumin line.

So, in my scenario the addition of an LPS is a no brainer.

 

Frank.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough Frank, I'm just not sure about it.  Presumably there was no ability to A/B comparisons?  It's curious that someone is marketing a linear power supply for $500 because for sure this will not actually be linear.

 

I've been a bit underwhelmed by my T2, I typically don't use it and prefer other streaming options.  Perhaps the power supply on it is lacking, I've never taken the lid off but maybe I will when I have time.

 

 

[Satanica]

On 06/04/2024 at 11:20 AM, mharvan said:

most of the nerd-boys that get into that tribal 'my way is best you are all wrong'- just plain forgot that music is supposed be fun

If I told you that I regularly rock out to Dragonforce from a TIDAL Stream at 24bit-192Khz into digital speakers with a Sean Olive tonality peference score of 7.23 and 7.88 with perfect subwoofers upmixed into a Dolby Atmos speaker configuration with Dirac Live, Dirac Live Bass Management, Dirac Live Active Room correction and with room treatments all around ... would you then think I'm capable of having "fun" with music and not so much of a "nerd-boy"?

Edited April 7 by Satanica

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, POV said:

It's curious that someone is marketing a linear power supply for $500 because for sure this will not actually be linear.

 

All is fair in love and marketing.   Discerning who has a useful product, from who just wants your money,  is further muddied by sellers and promoters who believe their own spiel.

[mharvan]

19 hours ago, Satanica said:

If I told you that I regularly rock out to Dragonforce from a TIDAL Stream at 24bit-192Khz into digital speakers with a Sean Olive tonality peference score of 7.23 and 7.88 with perfect subwoofers upmixed into a Dolby Atmos speaker configuration with Dirac Live, Dirac Live Bass Management, Dirac Live Active Room correction and with room treatments all around ... would you then think I'm capable of having "fun" with music and not so much of a "nerd-boy"?

Why should I care? and why do you care what I think about how you like to have fun? As long as you don't insist I do it your way, or that my way is totally wrong then it's all good,  Whatever floats your boat. Just don't wear a pocket protector then all bets are off.

Edited April 7 by mharvan

[sir sanders zingmore]

27 minutes ago, mharvan said:

Why should I care? and why do you care what I think about how you like to have fun? As long as you don't insist I do it your way, or that my way is totally wrong then it's all good,  Whatever floats your boat. Just don't wear a pocket protector then all bets are off.

I can’t of course, speak for @Satanica but I’d strongly suggest that the post was meant in jest.