Mivera Audio Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 So that's a no?. I believe you being a manufacturer you'd get better cred getting an independent professional measurement company like these to do test with, that way there can be no question of bias involved, and their testing equipment would be top of the range.. http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/ http://www.avhub.com.au/who-sells-what/newport-test-labs-764 We should get back on topic New Holo Audio Spring Dac - R2R and DSD Cheers George I think the U8903 is more than adequate for the task. If it was 1985, then maybe a good way to go. I'll post a YouTube video of the measurement session just for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) That wasn't just a hint to use independent test measuring facilities, it's if others feel like I do, I just don't trust measurements (especially when they present as very good), done by the manufacturer of the equipment, they're just too easily doctored. And one can't prove them wrong, unless they pay and get one of the above links to confirm and we know that will never happen. NOW BACK TO THE HALO AUDIO SPRING DAC Cheers George Edited March 3, 2017 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 That wasn't just a hint to use independent test measuring facilities, it's if others feel like I do, I just don't trust measurements (especially when they present as very good), done by the manufacturer of the equipment, they're just too easily doctored. And one can't prove them wrong, unless they pay and get one of the above links to confirm and we know that will never happen. NOW BACK TO THE HALO AUDIO SPRING DAC Cheers George As long as your vision works, the YouTube video will clearly show all of the connections made from the machine to the DAC. And you can watch the results populate on the machine's screen in real time as the measurements are taken. If that's not enough, buy a Holo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixelPlay Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: No I'm just accurately explaining how the DAC works that's all. Knowing how something works shouldn't be a detriment to any of the owners. Yawn, seriously mate move along with your $90K worth of opinions! If you have a product and feel that this is the place to promote it then pay your fees to become a sponsor. Your motivations are becoming very clear. Edited March 3, 2017 by PixelPlay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 4 hours ago, PixelPlay said: Yawn, seriously mate move along with your $90K worth of opinions! If you have a product and feel that this is the place to promote it then pay your fees to become a sponsor. Your motivations are becoming very clear. It's not my opinion of how the AK4137 works. It's how it actually does work. Look at the datasheet. I was only talking about my product because some people have a very inaccurate understanding on how today's SDM technology works. Since I happen to make SDM DAC's, naturally that's what I'm going to reference. And a very good portion of what's been said on this thread regarding how the Holo works is complete BS as well. Not blaming the good folks on this forum. just clearing up some misconceptions. As I said I don't think anyone is going to be in a worse position by having a clear understanding on how this technology actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixelPlay Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 23 minutes ago, Mivera Audio said: It's not my opinion of how the AK4137 works. It's how it actually does work. Look at the datasheet. I was only talking about my product because some people have a very inaccurate understanding on how today's SDM technology works. Since I happen to make SDM DAC's, naturally that's what I'm going to reference. And a very good portion of what's been said on this thread regarding how the Holo works is complete BS as well. Not blaming the good folks on this forum. just clearing up some misconceptions. As I said I don't think anyone is going to be in a worse position by having a clear understanding on how this technology actually works. Your "teachings" and method of, seem to not only be on this forum and lets just say that we here are a lot more forgiving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 minute ago, PixelPlay said: Your "teachings" and method of, seem to not only be on this forum and lets just say that we here are a lot more forgiving! Yes I know they say ignorance is bliss. I'll make sure if I contribute anything further it's complete BS so I can fit in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 23 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: Datasheet here: https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4137EQ.pdf If you read it carefully, it tells you how it works. No need to read the rehashed explanation on the Holo site. The main market this chip is aimed at is portable players and car stereo's. If the Holo can sound this good with a chip used in portable players and car stereo's then imagine if he used something better, then OMG it seems it would be a Dac from out of this world. Competitors would be trembling. On a more serious note, as a consumer, I am hoping to buy something that I really enjoy with the least amount of expenditure if possible. I am not too concerned what is inside if it works for me. I compared some Dacs and the Holo offered at the time more enjoyment to my listening sessions. I am a R2R convert now. There has always been something to Vinyl done right that has just made it more enjoyable than my digital side. The Holo brings a bit of that now to my digital side. We all have individual preferences in what sounds good to us in Audio but the Holo seems to work well for me in my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 23 minutes ago, rocky500 said: If the Holo can sound this good with a chip used in portable players and car stereo's then imagine if he used something better, then OMG it seems it would be a Dac from out of this world. Competitors would be trembling. On a more serious note, as a consumer, I am hoping to buy something that I really enjoy with the least amount of expenditure if possible. I am not too concerned what is inside if it works for me. I compared some Dacs and the Holo offered at the time more enjoyment to my listening sessions. I am a R2R convert now. There has always been something to Vinyl done right that has just made it more enjoyable than my digital side. The Holo brings a bit of that now to my digital side. We all have individual preferences in what sounds good to us in Audio but the Holo seems to work well for me in my system. If you subjectively like what you are hearing from the Holo, that's great. But if we are going to talk about the technology used inside, and how it works, I don't think there's any harm in explaining it accurately. If the NOS is the preferred setting, then taking that SRC chip out of the DAC altogether would be the best upgrade. Much better than spending another $500 on an external USB interface. Or a silver transformer upgrade. Maybe the next upgrade could be a $1200 version with standard transformer, and no SRC chip . Then they can invest $7 in a Crystek 575 or something that would bring a real benefit. After hearing 2 identical DAC's 1 with the AK4137 in NOS mode, and other no chip at all, I don't think there's a person on the planet that would prefer the sound with it in the path. However we were using ultra low jitter clocks. Perhaps if the clock is a high jitter type, you wouldn't notice as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 20 minutes ago, Mivera Audio said: IAfter hearing 2 identical DAC's 1 with the AK4137 in NOS mode, and other no chip at all, I don't think there's a person on the planet that would prefer the sound with it in the path. If that is indeed the case hopefully their next model will be NOS only. There has been some mention of a higher end model coming some time in the future. Until then I am more than content now with my Digital side with my included Singxer SU-1 in the path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: If you subjectively like what you are hearing from the Holo, that's great. But if we are going to talk about the technology used inside, and how it works, I don't think there's any harm in explaining it accurately. If the NOS is the preferred setting, then taking that SRC chip out of the DAC altogether would be the best upgrade. Much better than spending another $500 on an external USB interface. Or a silver transformer upgrade. Maybe the next upgrade could be a $1200 version with standard transformer, and no SRC chip . Then they can invest $7 in a Crystek 575 or something that would bring a real benefit. After hearing 2 identical DAC's 1 with the AK4137 in NOS mode, and other no chip at all, I don't think there's a person on the planet that would prefer the sound with it in the path. However we were using ultra low jitter clocks. Perhaps if the clock is a high jitter type, you wouldn't notice as much. Mivera/Mike, I know it is probably not in your nature to back off, but in this case you need to seriously think about doing so. Your technical prowess around digital circuits is noted, however your discussion of the bits and pieces inside the Holodac carry only so much weight. Do us all a favour and go and listen to one and then come back and tell us it is crap - that may have more credence. Until you do so all your 'talk' of chips etc is just that - talk, conjecture and extrapolation, with zero hands-on listening experience. People want to know what you think about the Holodac's sound not why you think it is flawed. The good folk on this forum come from all backgrounds, some very technically minded, some are here to assess and learn from those that are more experienced and some just passionate about the gear or the music. Whether you like it or not technically, the Holodac is one of the very best sounding dacs at its price point of around $2.5K with Singxer SU-1 usb bridge. Steve. Edited March 4, 2017 by Steve M 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Mivera/Mike, I know it is probably not in your nature to back off, but in this case you need to seriously think about doing so. Your technical prowess around digital circuits is noted, however your discussion of the bits and pieces inside the Holodac carry only so much weight. Do us all a favour and go and listen to one and then come back and tell us it is crap - that may have more credence. Until you do so all your 'talk' of chips etc is just that - talk, conjecture and extrapolation, with zero hands-on listening experience. People want to know what you think about the Holodac's sound not why you think it is flawed. The good folk on this forum come from all backgrounds, some very technically minded, some are here to assess and learn from those that are more experienced and some just passionate about the gear or the music. Whether you like it or not technically, the Holodac is one of the very best sounding dacs at its price point of around $2.5K with Singxer SU-1 usb bridge. Steve. As I mentioned earlier. Compare with the $390 Soekris or the $1399 Vinshine. Without discrete R-2R experience, hard to take opinions seriously. When I look at those 2 much cheaper designs I see good all around engineering with no BS claims. We already have guys on headfi saying the $600 denafrips DAC smokes the Holo. And the Vinshine is leaps and bounds better than the denafrips. But the big difference between the opinions of those guys are they actually own both DAC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Mivera Audio said: As I mentioned earlier. Compare with the $390 Soekris or the $1399 Vinshine. Without discrete R-2R experience, hard to take opinions seriously. When I look at those 2 much cheaper designs I see good all around engineering with no BS claims. We already have guys on headfi saying the $600 denafrips DAC smokes the Holo. And the Vinshine is leaps and bounds better than the denafrips. But the big difference between the opinions of those guys are they actually own both DAC's. If you can afford the test gear you have, you really need to employ someone quickly. You may? be a good designer and some knowledge but you really need someone to do the posting on forums on behalf of your company with at least a little bit tact and respect for others before it is too late. Edited March 4, 2017 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 If you can afford the test gear you have, you really need to employ someone quickly. You may? be a good designer but you really need someone to do the posting on forums on behalf of your company with at least a little bit tact and respect for others before it is too late. Sorry but claiming that the $2500 Holo/Singxer combo is one of the best values in DAC's today without any experience with any of the other budget discrete R-2R designs available doesn't hold much weight. The biggest problem is others read these forums who don't have experience to seek advice from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 I have seen your presence on a lot of other forums and there are a few you have been banned from. It may be time to get someone in and stick to what you are best at. Maybe that Is designing good hifi gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I have seen your presence on a lot of other forums and there are a few you have been banned from. It may be time to get someone in and stick to what you are best at. Maybe that Is designing good hifi gear? Based on all of the PM's I get from people thanking me, I don't think there's any problem with educating folks and helping them make better choices with their audio gear. If someone can get a better DAC for less money based on my advice, what harm is done? If Holo sponsored this forum it would be another story. However the way they do business is with shills imposing as innocent clients. Viral threads on every forum, no sponsorship on any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, Mivera Audio said: Based on all of the PM's I get from people thanking me, I don't think there's any problem with educating folks and helping them make better choices with their audio gear. If someone can get a better DAC for less money based on my advice, what harm is done? If Holo sponsored this forum it would be another story. However the way the do business is with shills imposing as innocent clients. is that what you think Holo is doing? Edited March 4, 2017 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 is that what you think Holo is doing? It's strange how on forums if a manufacturer talks about their products it's frowned upon. But if you offer incentives for others to promote instead then it's perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Mivera Audio said: It's strange how on forums if a manufacturer talks about their products it's frowned upon. But if you offer incentives for others to promote instead then it's perfectly fine. Maybe you could take note of kitsunehifi in the USA who offers loaner models out to the public. Hopefully your product will be liked too and people will post about it. Self promotion I would think is not always the best way. Get out the hifi shows etc and if you have a good product it will sell. Edited March 4, 2017 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Maybe you could take note of Holo USA who offered loaner models out to the public. Hopefully your product will be liked too and people will post about it. I don't see how getting other people to talk about your products on forums due to incentive programs is any different than the manufacturer talking direct. The main difference is it's deceptive. Why would anyone want to sponsor a forum when Chinese companies are going to use other deceptive means to completely overshadow you anyways? And I'm not talking about just loner programs. From what I heard there's much more attractive incentives than that being offered for folks to promote audio gear from particular brands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 6 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: Sorry but claiming that the $2500 Holo/Singxer combo is one of the best values in DAC's today without any experience with any of the other budget discrete R-2R designs available doesn't hold much weight. The biggest problem is others read these forums who don't have experience to seek advice from others. Hmmm...you stated you have not heard or tested the Holo DAC...yet claim its performance is not up to par in the price segment it competes in... "What we have here is a failure to validate"..."Houston we have a problem"... lackus credibilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundfan Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I wish we could all get on here. I do think that @Mivera Audio raises some good points though. There appears to be plenty of cheaper R2R dac's hitting the market that by many reports stack up well against the Holo Spring. Heck...I went and purchased one of them as my entry into Dacs, and I love it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 21 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: It's not my opinion of how the AK4137 works. It's how it actually does work. Look at the datasheet. I was only talking about my product because some people have a very inaccurate understanding on how today's SDM technology works. Since I happen to make SDM DAC's, naturally that's what I'm going to reference. And a very good portion of what's been said on this thread regarding how the Holo works is complete BS as well. Not blaming the good folks on this forum. just clearing up some misconceptions. As I said I don't think anyone is going to be in a worse position by having a clear understanding on how this technology actually works. [moderator post] minerva I bring your attention to the commercial members policy, you indicate you make dacs I would suggest your posts comply with the guidelines as listed below, http://www.stereo.net.au/information/website-guidelines in particular regard to Commercial interest policy with note to "Signatures" and "You may not denigrate the product of a competitor," [/end moderator post] 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 3 hours ago, soundfan said: There appears to be plenty of cheaper R2R dac's hitting the market that by many reports stack up well against the Holo Spring. Heck...I went and purchased one of them as my entry into Dacs, and I love it. Yes its great as there seems to quite a few companies designing R2R dacs now. It will be great to read about them and the ones that are much cheaper so more can get to try these types of Dacs. I am hooked. You just have to remember this is the Holo thread. There are a few threads already for the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKay Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 3 hours ago, soundfan said: I wish we could all get on here. I do think that @Mivera Audio raises some good points though. There appears to be plenty of cheaper R2R dac's hitting the market that by many reports stack up well against the Holo Spring. Heck...I went and purchased one of them as my entry into Dacs, and I love it. I would be looking at Vinshine as a competitor to Holo if I were in the market for a Dac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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