tone control

[Steffen]

On 17/01/2021 at 9:50 PM, stereo coffee said:

 

Tone controls are not needed in good audio systems as they add distortion

 

 

That’s what they’re designed to do. Hi-/low-/bandpass filters add linear distortion, to undo linear distortions introduced e.g. by the speakers rolling off the bass or the treble.

 

Unfortunately, this undoing (deconvolution) is hard to get right, and it’s very easy to cause more damage in trying. This is especially true with crude tools like 31-band graphic EQs, with filters centred around a fixed set of frequencies, and typically no way of adjusting the filter Q.

[stereo coffee]

12 hours ago, DrSK said:

 

Not totally sure that I agree with all this. Many of our systems are better than what the music was mixed for and from what I gather talking to sound engineers,  there is a balance between what sounds good on a full reference system vs what the target market has at home.

 

Some stuff I have definitely sounds better on my lesser speakers and better balanced. 

 

And a lot of older stuff sounds 'terrible' , in part because my internal reference and nostalgic memories were derived off far lesser systems. 

 

Music isn't just about reproducing what was in the mixing room, it is about how you feel about it and transporting yourself back to some other place and time. 

Most audio systems are not even close to what the recording can actually provide. I have often mentioned companding which is a portmanteau 

of compression and expansion, it has been used in the recording industry with aim of preserving dynamic range since about 1966. Yet few even know what it actually does, and despite manufacturer attempts it remains unused with playback..... until then,  the result is ignoring  20db of available dynamic range that the recording contains.    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/560757/Dbx-Type-Iv-Conversion-System.html

 

Your first paragraph, mentions inevitable compromises to be the voice of certain sound engineers,   The sound engineer is not to blame IMO rather many are fully dedicated to doing audio properly.

 

We simply need to refuse compromise in equipment we use,  and get as close as we can to the original performance.  This entails knowing where sections of the audio industry actively promote compromise  at the expense of doing audio properly and not to buy such equipment.  The infamous Citation 2 power amplifier review shows what happens when a manufacturer begins promoting what is possible:  https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harman-kardon-citation-ii-power-amplifier

 

We can see it never would have occurred  had it not been for the designers unwavering passion for achievement:

"Stu Hegeman’s circuits produced a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

[Graywulf]

On 15/01/2021 at 3:45 PM, Ian Lyons said:

Hi one and and all,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Well after finally putting together a hi fi system ,that is my most expensive and supposedly best ,I am quite rapt with it, That is ,with some of the music I play .The speakers ,which are the only secondhand part of the system,are beautiful with some music, but bright and too much treble with a lot of the music I play. They are  Spendor D9's.They are hooked up to a PrimaLunaEvo 400 streaming Tidal music through  a Auralic Aries G1 and Geiseler  dac and Mike Lenehan  top Speaker cables and interconnects.I also listen to flac quality music on sold state hardrive and it sounds the same as the streamed music, ie very bright .I added another band in the Aries and cut the high frequency  just a tad .I,ve played with speaker placement, but to no avail This brings me to my query originally when checking out speakers we asked to hear When the Levee  Breaks Led Zeppelin, And it sounded crap They said not a good song to test  speakers.On my older and cheaper system after playing with tone When the Levee Breaks sounds great.I know purists would be horrified .But I am interested to  know who on this forum play with tone.I love the PrimaLuna but wonder if I should of bought an amp with tone controls .I am thinking of buying a pre amp with tone control second hand. My lovelylady  is not impressed with me ,any sugestions on what I should get ,with budget in mind, is more than appreciated.

yehhhhhhhh, NAH.

  I love, when the Levee. They are 'correct' in that it's not a good 'test track', but it should'nt sound as bad as you are describing.  i have 3 versions of that track, the 'original' AAD, and two 'remasters'. IF you are using the Jimmy Page one, that is (sadly) the worst version. As mentioned above, the mastering/recording of the time but in no way does it sound as sharp as you are describing on my system.  Maybe you have a 'system synergy' problem? (everything very revealing/detailed in the chain?) The Harmonica IS supposed to be 'forward' on that track, but not BRIGHT!

        One track I constantly use for a system 'evaluation' is a track by Curved Air, called Paris by night.  It's a very 'boring track' BUT, the first 2 minutes or so are all 'top keys' of a Grand Piano, if your system is too bright/forward, you will know it. It'll literally make you start cringing. The track then changes and goes into some pretty deep bass, again, repetitive, but it uses 3 separate 'instruments' going deeper and deeper often 'overlaid'. You need both good bottom end to get this, and I've heard systems unable to separate the 3 'instruments' clearly.

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

"Stu Hegeman’s circuits produced a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion."

 

Typical reviewer guff that you'll find in pretty much any review of any component in any "hi-end" magazine

[stereo coffee]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Typical reviewer guff that you'll find in pretty much any review of any component in any "hi-end" magazine

Subjective opinion I agree. it would be interesting to know if the Bob Carver writing it is the same legendary amplifier designer.  

[Guest DrSK]

3 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

Most audio systems are not even close to what the recording can actually provide. I have often mentioned companding which is a portmanteau 

of compression and expansion, it has been used in the recording industry with aim of preserving dynamic range since about 1966. Yet few even know what it actually does, and despite manufacturer attempts it remains unused with playback..... until then,  the result is ignoring  20db of available dynamic range that the recording contains.    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/560757/Dbx-Type-Iv-Conversion-System.html

 

Your first paragraph, mentions inevitable compromises to be the voice of certain sound engineers,   The sound engineer is not to blame IMO rather many are fully dedicated to doing audio properly.

 

We simply need to refuse compromise in equipment we use,  and get as close as we can to the original performance.  This entails knowing where sections of the audio industry actively promote compromise  at the expense of doing audio properly and not to buy such equipment.  The infamous Citation 2 power amplifier review shows what happens when a manufacturer begins promoting what is possible:  https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harman-kardon-citation-ii-power-amplifier

 

We can see it never would have occurred  had it not been for the designers unwavering passion for achievement:

"Stu Hegeman’s circuits produced a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

Really not sure what your point is? 

 

There is a guy on here asking for help to get the sound they want and you haven't provided any assistance at all. Just endless links and comments saying effectively they are wrong to want what they want. 

 

I have given them some free solutions to at least try and measure the differences and can relate in that for me 90s grunge for example is internally calibrated to nostalgic memory on crap single driver systems. And that in talking to retired sound engineers, some recordings were mixed to sound the best on their likely target markets systems. 

 

Your response are reminding me of my first stereo.net experience where I got slammed for many pages for asking for help and wanting something that wasn't what the AV crowd group think thought was a good solution. Stereo.net for me only got saved after getting PMed by others with very nice systems doing exactly what I wanted. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by DrSK

[aussievintage]

10 minutes ago, DrSK said:

 

Really not sure what your point is? 

 

There is a guy on here asking for help to get the sound they want and you haven't provided any assistance at all. Just endless links and comments saying effectively they are wrong to want what they want. 

 

I have given them some free solutions to at least try and measure the differences and can relate in that for me 90s grunge for example is internally calibrated to nostalgic memory on crap single driver systems. And that in talking to retired sound engineers, some recordings were mixed to sound the best on their likely target markets systems. 

 

Your response are reminding me of my first stereo.net experience where I got slammed for many pages for asking for help and wanting something that wasn't what the AV crowd group think thought was a good solution. Stereo.net for me only got saved after getting PMed by others with very nice systems doing exactly what I wanted. 

 

 

It's becoming a bad habit indeed.   The place could indeed be more helpful if we respected others needs and wants.  Even if we just read the title and first post and try to stick to the subject, it would help.

[stereo coffee]

1 hour ago, DrSK said:

 

Really not sure what your point is? 

 

There is a guy on here asking for help to get the sound they want and you haven't provided any assistance at all. Just endless links and comments saying effectively they are wrong to want what they want. 

 

I have given them some free solutions to at least try and measure the differences and can relate in that for me 90s grunge for example is internally calibrated to nostalgic memory on crap single driver systems. And that in talking to retired sound engineers, some recordings were mixed to sound the best on their likely target markets systems. 

 

Your response are reminding me of my first stereo.net experience where I got slammed for many pages for asking for help and wanting something that wasn't what the AV crowd group think thought was a good solution. Stereo.net for me only got saved after getting PMed by others with very nice systems doing exactly what I wanted. 

The point is I was replying to your assertion that equipment was ahead of recordings, when in a number of areas that is quite untrue. 

namely Dynamic range, & frequency response.

 

If you read what i have said i am giving him more help than he realizes  by suggesting tone controls are not good for audio reproduction.

it would be a sad day indeed if we just politely agreed with audio fantasies  that in the long term prevent properly hearing recordings .  

[virgil]

To answer the original question of taming a bright system. Have you tried treating the room with acoustic panels, rugs etc it can have a dramatic impact on how your system sounds. I watched a Darko video on acoustics and the expert was saying your are listening to a larger percentage of the room rather than the speakers themselves.

Try to see if changing listening height in relation to the tweeter helps.

Roll tubes in your amp and try some different cables. I find power cables in some situations can help with brightness.

Lastly but not least tone controls in an amp are great. I have a preamp with tone controls and I find it helpful in taming bright recordings using both bass and treble controls. 

There are so many variables in audio reproduction from human hearing, room acoustics, different equipment,it would be very hard to have a system that plays everything well. 

The recording engineer can only mix the music the way they hear it and tries to balance it out. The problem is they are using different equipment/rooms and lastly people hear sound differently. 

When we change cables, equipment etc we are changing the sound/tone so why are tone controls on amps a no no. McIntosh and Dan D'agostino use tone controls - are they going down the wrong path also???

I believe that one should try to balance a system so your favourite music sounds great firstly. Tone controls are there simply to help with difficult tracks - distortion and all

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, virgil said:

Lastly but not least tone controls in an amp are great. I have a preamp with tone controls and I find it helpful in taming bright recordings using both bass and treble controls. 

There are so many variables in audio reproduction from human hearing, room acoustics, different equipment,it would be very hard to have a system that plays everything well. 

The recording engineer can only mix the music the way they hear it and tries to balance it out. The problem is they are using different equipment/rooms and lastly people hear sound differently. 

When we change cables, equipment etc we are changing the sound/tone so why are tone controls on amps a no no. McIntosh and Dan D'agostino use tone controls - are they going down the wrong path also???

I believe that one should try to balance a system so your favourite music sounds great firstly. Tone controls are there simply to help with difficult tracks - distortion and all

 

 

I think we need to get T-shirts made.  Support tone controls !!   

[Ian Lyons]

Well, some time has past since I started this topic and after reading all replies, I would like to thank one and all for their comments. Some comments tended to go off on a tangent but most were constructive. Comments from  DrSK , Aussie Vintage, Virgil to name  just a few ,showed  me that I am not alone with my impure thoughts, regarding tone control. For those discussing equalizers in depth,I have said that I wouldnt go down that wrong path. My system is 99% balanced I believe ,but the speakers are just a tad bright .I  just sat and listened to Pink Floyd Money and when the sax kicked in I went to where I wanted to be put .In the meantime I will save  up for a quality pre amp that will not demean  the system that I have , so that I will enjoy  those songs that my speakers dont do justice to,and those that ,how do you say, need a bit of help

[MattyW]

On 16/01/2021 at 12:45 PM, muon* said:

Same, with a system that is well balanced over all, I just accept poor recordings for what they are.

 

I'm in complete agreement with both of you. If find the more balanced and neutral my system is, everything sounds good. Sure only the best recordings sound spectacular but I still enjoy the musical content of poor recordings. I still enjoy 90's grunge. A great system will still sound better with poor recordings than a poor system and be listenable with darned near anything 

[virgil]

6 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

I think we need to get T-shirts made.  Support tone controls !!   

One in medium please!!
Where do we place the knobs????

[Red MacKay]

Just get yourself a pre with tone controls and be done with it.

 

Ideal for the purists?  No, but who cares a toss what they think.

 

Had the same problem with my 385HPD Tannoys years back when I removed the dust caps.  To the cries of Tannerds everywhere, I simply installed a quality attenuator pot to the tweeter.  Problem fixed!

 

Phase issues etc?  Maybe - but I didn't care cos I could crank the music to levels to share with the neighbours and tonally it was correct and never cut my ears off.

 

Same problem switching from audio to playing movies in same system.  Movies were always too hot.  Just crank the attenuator off a fraction - happy days.

 

Playing music you love, how you like it is more important than any swish gear.

[Tasebass]

37 minutes ago, Red MacKay said:

 

 

 who cares a toss what they think.

 

 

So endith the lesson for today....

 

Tase.

[MattyW]

On 18/01/2021 at 2:00 PM, Steam said:

You still seem to be missing the point.  Not everything is well recorded.  What do you do with the stuff you have that is not well recorded?  Surely you have something that is not good.  

 

Lenny Kravitz sounds like he recorded in a toilet cubicle with a Walkman.  Early Who recordings used ground up razor blades for the treble and forgot the bass.  Do you dismiss music that’s badly recorded?  Or do you grit your teeth and suffer for your pure signal path?  If YOU like this then great.  But please don’t tell me what I should like or that what I like is somehow wrong.   The Who, were an awesome band that unfortunantly didn’t have the kit at the time to capture well what they were doing.  If I can mess with it and make it the way I like it and enjoy it then great.
 

Do you tell the owners of flea watt tube amps and high efficiency speakers that their system is euphonic and they are doing it wrong - another group on the wrong path.

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, I have had earlier iterations of my system sound like this with Lenny Kravitz. My current system seems to let you see through the mud and sounds great, surprising though that might seem. The trick (for me anyway) was in getting the most real, natural sounding,  yet musical source components I could afford Abbas Esoteric Audio DAC + phono) and pairing it with a highly resolving and transparent amplification chain into high (99db) efficiency speakers utilizing a fullrange driver,  helper tweeters and big 15" woofers in an open baffle. I've never heard anything like it. 

 

Part of the secret was using Russian silver mica bypasses in the amp driving the fullrange and tweeters. These caps just let more of everything through.  The added fine, delicate detail just brings every recording to life. Yes, you hear all the flaws in every recording and it sounds glorious. The only recordings I've heard which sound abysmal is the occasional rap album from the 90's. Heck even Alice Cooper's Poison is enjoyable though it's clearly not a great recording.... Far from it,  rather one of the examples of a bad recording. Makes Lenny Kravitz sound well recorded in comparison.

 

If EQ and tone control does what you want then power to you. My experience though is that the elimination of as much distortion as possible and minimal colouration outside of the source makes everything much easier and more enjoyable to listen to, and allows you to hear things you never even knew existed in the recording. Enjoy it warts and all, and so long as the musical content is good it's a fantastic experience.

 

Problem is though,  this approach takes years and you really can't get the best from a system without use of a soldering iron. Likewise,  no system is ever totally uncoloured.  It can't be.  Just the interconnects and speaker cables make an enormous difference. Takes a revealing system for the differences to be obvious though 

Edited January 21, 2021 by MattyW

[almikel]

I love having tone controls on my system - even better, they're on the remote 

 

I muck with them all the time, especially if I'm jumping around between albums.

Treble too hot, dial it down a smidge.

Great bass line on a well recorded track, crank the bass to taste (eg Sara on multiple Fleetwood Mac recordings)

Some recordings have ample bass already (eg Angus and Julia Stone's Yellow Brick Road - I leave that flat).

 

Some poor recordings unfortunately just can't be listened to at high volume regardless of EQ settings - recordings by The Killers and The Strokes come to mind - I love their music, but some of their CD masters are horribly compressed...fine in the car up loud, but sound congested/strained on my main system up loud.

 

No way I could go back to not having tone controls - and having them on the remote is IMHO awesome....

...particularly the bass...which is quite different in my room between the listening couch and standing in front of the pre-amp...

 

On 17/01/2021 at 8:50 PM, stereo coffee said:

Tone controls are not needed in good audio systems as they add distortion and remove your ability to hear the music you enjoy as it was intended to be heard.

That would imply your listening room is an exact replica acoustically as where the music was mastered - which is never the case.

 

12 hours ago, virgil said:

I watched a Darko video on acoustics and the expert was saying your are listening to a larger percentage of the room rather than the speakers themselves.

^this - the room makes the biggest impact to what you hear "in room".

Going off topic a little from tone controls to EQ more generally, IMHO good integration of subs into a system requires EQ and delay capability.

 

EQ has a deservedly bad rap - poorly applied it can make a system sound terrible, and old school 31 band (or fewer) graphic equalisers are not a tool I would use.

EQ applied well IMHO is an essential tool in achieving the best "in room" sound, as is speaker/listening position placement and room treatment.

 

I use EQ and delay to integrate my sub to my mains, and in my crossovers (4 way active DEQX setup).

 

Tone controls on the remote are part of the DEQX setup - it's brilliant!

 

Tone controls rock - I love them - I wouldn't have a system that didn't have them...and preferably controlled via the remote whilst sitting back enjoying tunes

 

Mike

[muon*]

The two Lenny Kravitz CD's I have sound OK on my system

 

Edit: I'm not against tone controls on other peoples systems, I just don't get a benefit in my system for my ears with what I listen to.

 

vive la difference!

Edited January 21, 2021 by muon*

[Darren69]

Speaker positioning is everything and overlooked a lot of the time. It’s also free. Does the listening position need to be higher? Lower? Further back or closer? Also free. Purchase the ‘Get Better Sound’ book and follow the speaker positioning chapter. You will be very happy at what you can achieve. Have a look at my system thread to see what I have done in the past.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Darren69

[BugPowderDust]

Before I did anything drastic, I’d be getting a room response measured using REW so you know what you’re dealing with. https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/gettingstarted.html

 

This will help you understand if it is an excessive reverb in the room, a non linear frequency response etc.

 

work this out then see what your plan should be.
 

Acoustic treatment (diffusion, absorption) will make a massive difference if used judiciously and well executed (Pre and post measurement validation). 

 

there is much you can do from here in terms of dsp too: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/auto-eq-with-rew

 

but start with measuring the room and sharing some of the plots. The gang on here will have lots to share from that point onwards as to how you might tame some of that brightness.  

[Steffen]

6 hours ago, muon* said:

I'm not against tone controls on other peoples systems

 

That’s a very fitting turn of phrase, I’m going to reuse that

 

 

[Andrews_melb]

Wouldn't tone controls and any kind of EQ be better set to suit your room instead of adjusting for each album? So done when setting up your system.

 

Adjusting for each album sounds like it would be introducing more problems like the risk of over compensating treble/bass, therefor listening to music thats not close to what was released commercially. 

Im not ocd, but i think id go crazy if i was adjusting tone controls on every album.

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, Andrews_melb said:

m not ocd, but i think id go crazy if i was adjusting tone controls on every album.

 

But in the good old days,  (I think it was) World Record CLub used to have 2 dials on the back of the sleeve where you could write down the position of the controls that sounded best

 

2 hours ago, Andrews_melb said:

Wouldn't tone controls and any kind of EQ be better set to suit your room instead of adjusting for each album?

 

Why must it be one or the other?

2 hours ago, Andrews_melb said:

Adjusting for each album sounds like it would be introducing more problems like the risk of over compensating treble/bass, therefor listening to music thats not close to what was released commercially. 

 

and when you don't like it the way it was released,  you change it.  It isn't a matter of overcompensating,  as you simply put the control where you like the sound.

[almikel]

12 hours ago, Andrews_melb said:

Wouldn't tone controls and any kind of EQ be better set to suit your room instead of adjusting for each album? So done when setting up your system.

I've set global EQ based on the room, and a room curve - this is the baseline.

Tone controls are for taste - tweak as desired.

12 hours ago, Andrews_melb said:

Adjusting for each album sounds like it would be introducing more problems like the risk of over compensating treble/bass, therefor listening to music thats not close to what was released commercially.

No-one at the listening end has any clue what the listening environment was for the mastering engineer...and I don't think it matters anyway...I'm sure the artist won't care if the end listener prefers more/less bass/treble as long as they're enjoying the music.

 

13 hours ago, Andrews_melb said:

Im not ocd, but i think id go crazy if i was adjusting tone controls on every album.

I'm not OCD either - I just dial up/down the bass/treble on the remote as I want - usually setting everything back to flat on an album change, and dialing up/down from there to taste.

• Mostly I'll leave treble flat or apply some cut to taste
• Often I'll apply some bass boost if the recording is good and I'm in the mood for more bass slam - again to taste
• when playing at elevated SPLs with tracks that have good/extended bass at lower listening levels I might tweak the bass down if it gets overwhelming and/or the room starts rattling and/or the amps get close to clipping and/or the neighbours start complaining (actually I'll just turn it down if neighbours complain)

Tone controls on the remote are a revelation - I couldn't go back.

 

Mike

[GregWormald]

I'm sure there are ways of changing the tonality in (mostly) non-harmful ways.

 

I noticed on my David Hafler 101/200 that even just switching the tone controls into the signal path totally collapsed the 'image' and I ended up not using them. I never bought another amp that had them.

 

Although the multitude of 'tone controls' on the back of the SGR CX4F speakers are not set to flat.