Old CD players vs Modern - value?

[Rob McHugh]

Hi gys,

 

Couldn't find anything so started this. 

 

Here is my question. I am looking to upgrade my transport which is a Marantz CD6006 and it is not bad but has a DAC which I probably paid for and will never use. How does say a 13 year old Esoteric P-03 stack up against it performance wise these days? I guess what  I want to know is, is it worth buying an old high quality CD Player (I only use CD's - no streaming) or has all the new kit and technology caught up and represent better value?

 

Let's kill two birds with one stone - while answering, can anyone give me a fairly definitive answer of what makes an expensive Player so much better than a fairly good one and how is it exemplified; better soundstage, detail etc?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Rob

[Gryffles]

More importantly are the parts still available for the old ones. If not forget about old ones

 

 

[Dean Gale]

Check out the original warranties for a guide , Esoteric were and are great stuff their cd transports being just beautiful engineering . If your just playing CD then it would be excellent . Reasonably certain you would be able to get parts . 

[audiofeline]

Yes, my original Marantz CD player was retired when I couldn't obtain an replacement laser. 

If you are using an external DAC, I would wonder about differences that the transport would provide. 

[gemini07]

My 2c worth. I have three players I use for CD playback:

 

1999 Primare D20

2010 Audia Flight One 

2019 Oppo 203 JLTI modded (mainly for HT)

 

Both the Primare and the AF One are better than the Oppo - the Audia Flight much more so. Completely black background, more natural, with all nuances present and in harmonic balance. Also, a full and big presentation of sound, not just some thin, veiled imitation. Think being at a live concert in about row ten vs row 100 and listening to the effects speakers.

 

Both the Primare and the Audia needed laser assembly replacements last year, at some cost. In the case of the AF One, more than the cost of most new CD and BD players. Was that good value for money? - absolutely! Once you have heard excellence, it is really hard to settle for mediocrity.

 

However, interpreting and appreciating quality is entirely up to the individual. I can't tell you that you should / will like an older player (that cost $10k) better than a current model $1k one. You will only know when you take the time to find out for yourself.

 

If you are not going into streaming, then a high quality 'older' CD player can provide you with exceptional music playback. But, like all electronics they eventually wear out and you need to consider this seriously as Ben has said. Taking a proactive approach to this and doing some homework on what is around will be very worthwhile.

 

Also, IMO, many players, especially blu ray, have focussed on detail retrieval more than harmonic balance. It is very easy to be seduced into thinking such 'extra' detail is compelling, but in many cases it is indicative of a lack of natural musical balance. Listen to some top level older players and you'll know what I mean. 

 

 

[Ian McP]

Lampizator archives is an informative read especially on older cd players

 

http://www.lampizator.eu/Fikus/ARCHIVES.html

 

regards Ian

 

[maximus]

I'd repair the Audia flight if you think it is as good as you say. Good digital still costs, I just shelled out almost 5k for a Marantz KI Ruby SACD player, and that was the special sale price. 

You could in the future use the Audia Flight as a transport and audition one of the very good DACS, i.e. Gieseler or Ares as a comparison.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by maximus
Sentencing error.

[muon*]

Get a Marantz CD12/DA12 combo

[Irek]

Marantz CD6006 is a good transport. 

In my opinion if your speakers + amp + DAC are under $30k there is no need to improve transport. 

The other option you can get SACD player/transport like Yamaha CD-S1000. 

3. DACs are getting better almost every year. 

[att23]

I don’t mean to be sarcastic, so no offence, as I am also trying to make sense of what you are asking... perhaps it is no different than asking:

 

“What makes an expensive pair of SPEAKER so much better than a fairly good one and how is it exemplified; better soundstage, detail etc?”

 

No easy answer.
Pending which CD player you are asking about. What you are comparing to, and what is your preference.  E.g. Is a 2004 Ferrari much better than a 2017 Honda Accord?

 

My bet is the Esoteric older player will sound better (soundstage, detail, etc) than the entry level player.
But are your rest of system up to scratch at the Esoteric level, or is there synergy? High end player are picky with matching the “right” cable or whatever else...  Will the disc reading and tray loading speed of an old player be too slow for your liking? Are you willing to maintain the Esoteric part costs if anything fail?

[att23]

9 minutes ago, Irek said:

Marantz CD6006 is a good transport. 

In my opinion if your speakers + amp + DAC are under $30k there is no need to improve transport. 

The other option you can get SACD player/transport like Yamaha CD-S1000. 

3. DACs are getting better almost every year. 

You explain it better than I just did. 

[Rob McHugh]

I should also have explained the rest of my chain, which is a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and an SPL Phonitor XE Headphone amp. I have hand made interconnects and Nordost power cables. My cans are HD800 modded, 650, 600, 575, Focal Utopias, Audeze LCD-3’s with Danacable Lazuli Reference cables. 
The CD6006 goes to the DAC with a Nordost Blue Heaven Coax.

I guess I was looking to upgrade the transport to match the rest of the kit but perhaps the DAC is doing the heavy lifting?

[muon*]

Maybe look for a used CEC TL5 CD transport if it is just for redbook CD's.

[aechmea]

The problem with old or even any CD player used as a transport is that it is based on a proprietary mechanism.  It is likely that there will be difficulty finding a replacement laser, drive, whatever, when it eventually breaks. 

 

My MSB transport has a simple computer DVD drive which is replaceable by whatever, bought at a computer shop.  Future proof.  All the transport does is suck the digital data from the disk, assemble in a FPGA (=memory) using firmware and clock out to an external DAC.

 

Being driven by software, the transport can deliver data other than just a CD read.  MSB and PS-Audio transports can read WAV files from DVD-Data disks (Not DVD-Audio, Not DVD-Video) but I use CDs only.

 

MSB and PS-Audio (memory) transports are worth looking at.

[Guest]

Have you considered ripping (with error correction) and playing back via that? Then you can spend more on a DAC.

 

No player in my price range competes.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Guest

[TerryO]

Sorry I can’t comment on the Esoteric or the Marantz,  but like Gimini07 I have three CDP’s, in my case they are a Oppo 205, PrimaLuna Classic tube CD with nearly $1k in NOS tubes and a Droplet 5.0
In my main system the Droplet wins easily, with my second system either the Oppo or the PL CDP usually deliver a better sq than the Droplet depending on what amp is being used, so yes synergy is very important and the only way you can find what works with what is through experimentation.
 

One thing though they all deliver much better sq with a Marigo Aida mat installed, but at over $350 the mat is not inexpensive, though I consider it is easily worth it for the sound quality improvement it delivers. 
 

Sometimes nothing is ever easy in this hobby.

 

cheers,

Terry

Edited October 9, 2020 by TerryO

[Wayne Elliott]

1 hour ago, Billy Shears said:

Have you considered ripping (with error correction) and playing back via that?

 

No player in my price range competes.

What price range and what Players?

[Ian McP]

Worth a look, they have a cult following, transport only, DAC or cd player

 

Jay's Audio

 

https://www.jays-audio.com/

< JAY'S AUDIO, founded by Jacky Ho, focused on designing and manufacturing Redbook CD transport, CD Player using the Philips CDPRO2 LF, and CDM4 mechanisms for nearly two decades.

Today, despite the advancement, and evolution of the computer music playback, the convenience of music streaming via PC/streamer, Jacky still believe in the standalone digital CD transports are the best way to reproduce music.

Redbook CD at 16bit, 44.1kHz is all one needs. >

< CDT2-MK2 Blue Moon Award Winning CD Transport based on Philips CDM4. FEMTO clock buffer and Native 44.1kHz output HDMI i2s, Coax, AES/EBU. Rave reviews in audiophile forums.

 

< CDP-2 CD Player based on Philips CDM4 mechanism with Soekris R2R DAC. CD Drives interconnection with Soekris R2R DAC via i2s for best possible sound quality.

< DAC-2 SignatureNOS DAC with Dual AKM AK4497EQ DAC. Carefully tuned to sound superlative. The perfect companion with CDT2-MK2 / CDT3-MK2. >

https://dacmanaudio.com.au/jays-audio/

in depth review and visit to factory, an excellent read

http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/jaysaudio/1.html

regards Ian

[Rob McHugh]

18 hours ago, Ian McP said:

Worth a look, they have a cult following, transport only, DAC or cd player

 

Jay's Audio

 

https://www.jays-audio.com/

< JAY'S AUDIO, founded by Jacky Ho, focused on designing and manufacturing Redbook CD transport, CD Player using the Philips CDPRO2 LF, and CDM4 mechanisms for nearly two decades.

Today, despite the advancement, and evolution of the computer music playback, the convenience of music streaming via PC/streamer, Jacky still believe in the standalone digital CD transports are the best way to reproduce music.

Redbook CD at 16bit, 44.1kHz is all one needs. >

< CDT2-MK2 Blue Moon Award Winning CD Transport based on Philips CDM4. FEMTO clock buffer and Native 44.1kHz output HDMI i2s, Coax, AES/EBU. Rave reviews in audiophile forums.

 

< CDP-2 CD Player based on Philips CDM4 mechanism with Soekris R2R DAC. CD Drives interconnection with Soekris R2R DAC via i2s for best possible sound quality.

< DAC-2 SignatureNOS DAC with Dual AKM AK4497EQ DAC. Carefully tuned to sound superlative. The perfect companion with CDT2-MK2 / CDT3-MK2. >

https://dacmanaudio.com.au/jays-audio/

in depth review and visit to factory, an excellent read

http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/jaysaudio/1.html

regards Ian

Thanks mate, I had forgotten about this guy. I agree with his philosophy, I think CD’s are second only to vinyl and will probably contact him.

 

Rob

[dcathro]

Transports, contrary to what many people expect, have as big or bigger impact on the sound quality as the DAC.

 

Modern "computer" transports are very poor sounding compared with the old Philips transports. By reputation, the older the transport, the better they sound. However, there are very few working machines around with a CDM0, CDM1, or CDM2, and the mechs are impossible to replace. The Philips CDM4 mechanisms were made in mass from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, in huge volumes for the mass market. They were incredibly robust, with very low failure rates over decades of use. 

 

I have been using CD players based around the CDM4 and the TDA1541A for the past 15 years, and to my ears, nothing comes close for less than the price of a European car.  A CDM4 based transport will be hard to beat, and replacement mechanisms are easily found.

 

Another option that some people swear by are the Teac VRDS mechanisms. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by dcathro

[Steam]

On 08/10/2020 at 9:21 PM, Irek said:

Marantz CD6006 is a good transport. 

In my opinion if your speakers + amp + DAC are under $30k there is no need to improve transport. 

The other option you can get SACD player/transport like Yamaha CD-S1000. 

3. DACs are getting better almost every year. 

+1

same money spent on a better DAC would probably give better results

[Rob McHugh]

25 minutes ago, Steam said:

+1

same money spent on a better DAC would probably give better results

Hard to get a better DAC than the one I’ve got

[Irek]

33 minutes ago, Rob McHugh said:

Hard to get a better DAC than the one I’ve got

Maybe you don't need a better one, only different. 2 different DACs might work for you, not necessary expensive. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Irek

[Rob McHugh]

I think I may have unwittingly caused a little confusion. I am happy with the DAC and my Headphone amp is the best SS IMHO; my set up sound great - I just thought upgrading the transport may improve it the last bit.  But the rest of the chain won’t be upgraded (did that last but sound sincere? ).

 

Rob

[Ratbob]

I’ll part with my TEAC VRDS 25 when it’s ripped from my cold dead hands.

Not saying it’s the ultimate but it has proven that transports do make an audible difference.