Should I change amp?

[Godot]

I don’t know anything about the amount of space you have available, but If you like everything else about your system, maybe a couple of subs? A couple of Rels (saw a pair of T9s in the classifieds) would keep everything you like,  provide tuneable bass crossover and volume and probably even out some room issues. 

[Art Vandelay]

1 hour ago, realysm42 said:

Being honest, I'm shocked that everyone is advocating just buying a new amp, it may be the solution but it may not...

 

NB. I've written this with the assumption you want to keep your speakers and that you're willing to put the work in to at least understand the root cause of your issue (with gear like yours I'm sure you are )
 

1. You need to eliminate the likely issue(s) in your set up, it sounds like it could be:
   1. Your rooms acoustics
   2. your amps inability to drive your speakers (in the bass region)

 

B&W's, like many modern floorstanders these days are not an easy load for any tube amp. The low impedance coupled with no attempt to conjugate match the reactive components, typical of a ported enclosure, means that the driving amplifier ideally needs to have a low output impedance and high current capability for best bass. Sure there could be other factors at play but anyone who owns 800 series B&W's also knows (or eventually discovers) that they need a beast of an amp to deliver their full bass potential, even at relatively modest drive levels.   

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Art Vandelay

[realysm42]

59 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

 

B&W's, like many modern floorstanders these days are not an easy load for any tube amp. The low impedance coupled with no attempt to conjugate match the reactive components, typical of a ported enclosure, means that the driving amplifier ideally needs to have a low output impedance and high current capability for best bass. Sure there could be other factors at play but anyone who owns 800 series B&W's also knows (or eventually discovers) that they need a beast of an amp to deliver their full bass potential, even at relatively modest drive levels.   

 

I'm not debating your point(s) and appreciate it's vital to match components well to get the best out of them, although I do view the room as a (vital) component.

 

All I've advised the OP is not to just buy another amp and expect the problem to go away, as it may not.

 

They may have one or more issues to deal with, so before jumping to a solution, it's useful to know what problem you're trying to solve; If I came here with the same issue, asked for advice, paid big bucks for a new amp and found I still had boomy bass in my room, I wouldn't be happy.

Edited April 2, 2020 by realysm42

[Ooogh]

My friend runs a pair of 802’s. He has a Bryston 14BSST (600 Watts into 8 Ohms) and a Bryston 4BSST2 (300 Watts into 8 Ohms). He finds the 4B underpowered to properly control the bass.  

[vassp]

Guys advising about room are missing the point......

the point being is he/she needs power and lots of it to open up those speakers. Unless you own those type of speakers you will never appreciate how much power they require to sing. 

there is no other way around it unfortunately. I tried and failed .

In your case just get an amp with grunt and you will never look back. 
then you can think about room correction. 
 

 

[IAMGORT]

Primare has always been a got to for me.

 

[Guest deanB]

One of our local members was very impressed with the Vincent 994 hooked up to @todagt 803's when Ewen had a few amps and people over for a comparison fest. 

Given it was the opinion of a former long term Krell/Infinity owner and such people know a thing or two about horsepower and awkward speaker loads, I took notice of his observations.

Maybe try and get one of your local Vincent suppliers to loan you one for a home demo.

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by deanB

[Satanica]

11 hours ago, vassp said:

Guys advising about room are missing the point......

the point being is he/she needs power and lots of it to open up those speakers.

That might be your point (and others) but it's not the point.

[vassp]

11 hours ago, Satanica said:

That might be your point (and others) but it's not the point.

Yes it is....his speakers need power. Simples. 

[todagt]

I still have a soft spot for the 800 series b&w but 2nd time around decided to change to a different brand, main reason is amp matching.

They are glorious speakers, so long as the upstream components are worthy. Sadly that means components at the higher end of the price spectrum.

 

I found a combination of a Bryston 4sst2, Bel canto pre1, PS audio directstream to work. In a moderately treated dedicated room 6mx8m.

 

 

[Couj]

Thank you all for for views.  I really appreciate the input. .  At this stage I’m going to keep an eye out for a second hand Bryston 4bsst2 or 14bsst2 or something similar but I haven’t ruled out class d either. 

[Satanica]

13 hours ago, vassp said:

Yes it is....his speakers need power. Simples. 

How much power depends on the output requirements. More output required will require more power.

 

But large variances in bass notes as reported by the thread starter is seemingly occuring because of room acoustics. Surely you're open to the possibility. Let's recap what was reported.

"I absolutely love the mids and highs in my system but, for some time now, I’ve been challenged by the bass response.  For certain bass frequencies (eg bass in castle on the hill by Ed Sheehan), the bass is very boomy."

 

Note there was no mention of the sound being strained or compressed and that's the typical sign an amplifier is not powerful enough. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use a valve amplifier if I was given one and I approve that solid state is generally superior.

 

But, room acoustics can affect frequency response of bass enormously i.e. +-20db. That's the kind of one note bass loud and the other soft kind of variance one can hear in a typical listening environment.

 

I know this makes a situation that is far more complicated than "Simples" but I'm pretty sure it's true.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Satanica

[betty boop]

i am not sure the tube amp a good match. id would be more steered to solid state or hybrid. there are some good super integrated even do just fine. eg the mf m6500i  or musical fidelity m6 pre-pwr even the m6i would be fine. these amps will even do level up 802 with ease. 

 

I've heard these particular speakers being demoed at Tivoli and going very well with an Audio research combination, im pretty sure tube pre, but solid state (class D) power still (though might be wrong). Macintosh and electrocompaniet are also good known combos... id be looking at these ....

 

note with the B&W before all this is room and location location location. these have some bass capability if inadequately placed or room not doing favours then no amp will fix...

[Quark]

On 30/03/2020 at 11:00 PM, Couj said:

I currently System is as follows:

speakers: B&W 803 D3s

pre amp: stereo knight enigma (tube pre amp)

dac: PS Audio Direct Stream Junior

Power Amps 2 x Stereo Knight M100 monoblocks

 

i absolutely love the mids and highs in my system but, for some time now, I’ve been challenged by the bass response.  For certain bass frequencies (eg bass in castle on the hill by Ed Sheehan), the bass is very boomy.  I discussed it with the hifi shop that I purchased the speakers from a few years ago and they suggested that the tube amps may not be a good match for my speakers (something about tube amps being a bit slow).  Has anyone else had this experience?  Would a decent solid state amp help.  I was recommended a Devialet 220 pro recently but just not sure.  
 

Thanks for your  thoughts?

Not sure how I missed this thread, but are you using the 4 Ohm taps on the SK monoblocs? They should give tighter (but perhaps slightly louder) bass than the 8 Ohm taps (if you're using those).

 

Having heard @evil c 's Bryston 4B3, I can say it's a great sounding amp with super tight bass control. If buying another amp, I'd suggest looking for one with a high damping factor (like the 4B3) to control the bass drivers in your B&Ws.

[Couj]

Thanks Quark - yep, using the 4 ohm taps.  Lots of positive comments in the Bryson amps but lots of other suggestions to consider too.  Thanks for the pointer about the high damping factor

[buddyev]

How about an Elektra Ref HD - there's one in the classifieds. 

[Quark]

35 minutes ago, Couj said:

Thanks Quark - yep, using the 4 ohm taps.  Lots of positive comments in the Bryson amps but lots of other suggestions to consider too.  Thanks for the pointer about the high damping factor

There's one other factor you should consider when looking for an amp - your Enigma pre has a relatively high output impedance of 600 Ohm. Generally you'll need an amp with an input impedance 50 times this to avoid material differences in frequency response i.e. input impedance of 30K Ohms. Some purists will say the impedance factor should be 100 times, not 50, but I'm not in that camp.

[Guest deanB]

18 minutes ago, Quark said:

There's one other factor you should consider when looking for an amp - your Enigma pre has a relatively high output impedance of 600 Ohm. Generally you'll need an amp with an input impedance 50 times this to avoid material differences in frequency response i.e. input impedance of 30K Ohms. Some purists will say the impedance factor should be 100 times, not 50, but I'm not in that camp.

I'm in the 1:10 'camp' The RCA Electronics handbook states " thou shall not break the minimum 1:5 output/input ratio"(paraphrasing). 

But as a keen follower of reviews with lab measurements, it's interesting how much impedance can vary across the frequency range, especially with preamps. The 2 box Cary preamp has some very high impedance numbers, more than 5 times the Enigma's 600ohm. But nothing wrong with having a bit of extra room for impedance fluctuation, especially if you can't find measurements for prospective purchases.

Aries Cerat designer Stavros Danos knows the 1:5 rule, he designs a preamp with 50ohm output impedance that will drive a 250ohm load (just in case). The actual output impedance of his amplifiers follow the 1:5 ratio too. So the 8ohm output actually measures 1.6ohm, the 4ohm measures 0.8ohm.

Trafomatic have a couple of very low output impedance valve preamps too. There should be more designs like that.

[Couj]

The Electra could be an interesting option.  It looks like the one in the classifieds has recently sold, but I’m sure they come up from time to time.  I also see that they can be bridged to output 1000 w at 8 ohms.  At around $2500 second hand, I could potentially get two and run them as monoblocks.  For the more technically minded amount you, how do they go on the high current, high damping factor and high impedance?

[betty boop]

11 minutes ago, Couj said:

The Electra could be an interesting option.  It looks like the one in the classifieds has recently sold, but I’m sure they come up from time to time.  I also see that they can be bridged to output 1000 w at 8 ohms.  At around $2500 second hand, I could potentially get two and run them as monoblocks.  For the more technically minded amount you, how do they go on the high current, high damping factor and high impedance?

I dont personally think they would need to be bridged to 1000W and need to get another to run the B&W, even just one run as own in stereo will be quite sufficient. for even 802 level let alone the  803. 

 

coming back to pre pwr matching. in my opinion/experince not only the impedance matching but just how well go together in character it can be quite hit miss if doing between brands. all more reason you want to demo option with pre amp and even consider dumping both pre and pwr as likely both pre an pwr from same maker might be superior to a matchup between separate brands. something cant know unless try combinations and discussions of possibilities just becomes more hypotentical until actually experience to know. 

 

ps another interesting approach keeping your tube monos might be 550W super chargers...

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Musical-Fidelity-550-Watt-Mono-Block-Power-Amplifiers/124099737140?hash=item1ce4ebb634:g:KMcAAOSw~wZeWGz1

 

something I remember @TerryO found to benefit and might be able to explain how that worked out, 

 

but still we havent as yet talked of room and locations... can share a bit more in that regard as quite possibly while gear might be answer better gains might be possible with both speaker locations vs main listening position and the room itself if that is not helping...

[Quark]

13 minutes ago, Couj said:

The Electra could be an interesting option.  It looks like the one in the classifieds has recently sold, but I’m sure they come up from time to time.  I also see that they can be bridged to output 1000 w at 8 ohms.  At around $2500 second hand, I could potentially get two and run them as monoblocks.  For the more technically minded amount you, how do they go on the high current, high damping factor and high impedance?

Melbourne Hifi quotes the damping factor of the Elektra as 5000 - I suspect this is a typo and it should be 500 (at least at the low bass frequencies where you need it).

 

Many amps will lose a significant part of their damping factor when you bridge, so would suggest you speak with Arthur Rappos (Elektra's owner) if you're intending to go down this path (PM me for a phone number).

 

I'm a fan of the Elektra HD Reference and run one nowadays for my easy to drive Osborns, but to my ear the Bryston 4B3 has better bass control and has been tested as having a damping factor of 1000.  It's not that the Elektra's a slouch, it's definitely much tighter than the SK monoblocs.

 

In any event, let your ears be the judge.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Quark

[Quark]

39 minutes ago, deanB said:

I'm in the 1:10 'camp' The RCA Electronics handbook states " thou shall not break the minimum 1:5 output/input ratio"(paraphrasing). 

But as a keen follower of reviews with lab measurements, it's interesting how much impedance can vary across the frequency range, especially with preamps. The 2 box Cary preamp has some very high impedance numbers, more than 5 times the Enigma's 600ohm. But nothing wrong with having a bit of extra room for impedance fluctuation, especially if you can't find measurements for prospective purchases.

Aries Cerat designer Stavros Danos knows the 1:5 rule, he designs a preamp with 50ohm output impedance that will drive a 250ohm load (just in case). The actual output impedance of his amplifiers follow the 1:5 ratio too. So the 8ohm output actually measures 1.6ohm, the 4ohm measures 0.8ohm.

Trafomatic have a couple of very low output impedance valve preamps too. There should be more designs like that.

Agree, if the pre and the amp complement each other (through design or chance) lower ratios are fine.

[TerryO]

40 minutes ago, betty boop said:

ps another interesting approach keeping your tube monos might be 550W super chargers...

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Musical-Fidelity-550-Watt-Mono-Block-Power-Amplifiers/124099737140?hash=item1ce4ebb634:g:KMcAAOSw~wZeWGz1

 

something I remember @TerryO found to benefit and might be able to explain how that worked out, 

 

but still we havent as yet talked of room and locations... can share a bit more in that regard as quite possibly while gear might be answer better gains might be possible with both speaker locations vs main listening position and the room itself if that is not helping...

The Superchargers are definitely one of the best components I have ever owned and I don’t see me ever selling them. Given their price secondhand They are easily the best bang for buck HiFi purchase I have made. 

They just work so well with Tube amplifiers, they have given me a 500w PrimaLuna and when I mean a 500w PrimaLuna I mean it, they don’t take anything away from the PL sound, they just add more of everything, while they sound great wound up, their real strength is how much body and bass they add at quite to normal listening levels, don’t get me wrong they also add body evenly to the top end as well as the Bass.

I always thought I needed Sub’s with my Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Concert Grands, add Superchargers and the VA’s produce excellent bass. 
I power mine and the PL integrated through a PS Audio P10 power regen and the improvement in SQ is even more impressive.
 

Do they benefit every underpowered amp? No, they don’t, I have paired them with maybe twenty SS amps in my system (thanks Cafad) with about a 60% success rate. With the Tube amps they are just bloody excellent and that is their strength.

 

As crazy as this sounds adding Superchargers to my tube amps has made the VA’s sound like speakers that are three times more expensive. Yes I know that is a big statement.

 

cheers,

Terry

Edited April 4, 2020 by TerryO

[Couj]

For those who are interested in the room accoustics, I've attached some pictures of the room.  The room is approx 4m wide x 6m long with 3.5m ceillings.  Unfortuantely, because one of the speakers is near the door to the room, the back of the speakers are only about 30 cm from the front wall (to allow clearance between the door when it is open and the speakers (with enough space for someone to enter the rooom without falling over the relevant speaker)).  To keep the wife happy, this is the best I could do with placement.

[betty boop]

@Couj I dont think that setup is doing your speakers any favours... you get about +3db bass boost just with a wall +6 in a corner, in your case it looks like both being in alcoves will be likely in order of +9db quite possibly not sure ! in essence near two walls and rear wall.  300mm behind speaker like this  just isnt enough... likely getting about 12db+ of gain just in the bass making it stick out from rest and becoming obvious.

 

the speakers themselves also look too far close together depending on where main listening position will be ? is it the chair/single seater couch all way back ?  additionally thew single seater couch looks like close to the rear wall there and by hexagonal nature of it also adding as a corner so more bass gain ?

 

I'd personally look to relocate the rack on the right...get out of way ? perhaps up other end where listening position is ... jsut to clear the front stage so gives speakers more room to work with., move speakers more forward well clear of the corner and fire place, well ahead of fire place and wider apart once rack out the ways...

 

if all that is not possible maybe consider relocating speakers to maybe other end of room ? ie window side ? though the couches look far too big and will likely have to move back and not leave much room other end either ...

 

anyways just some thoughts am sure others will have more ...