Guest scumbag Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) Yes, the power supply on my Pass Labs amplifier is a joke too. Only 30 watts and it consumes 200watts whilst ticking over. Edited May 11, 2018 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 @frednork what did you replace your 200 with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, Mike13 said: @frednork what did you replace your 200 with? I nabbed the Vitus integrated RI-100 with inbuilt DAC which was on the classifieds recently. I was thinking of getting another 200 as I felt like just one was not so much struggling at higher volumes but it lost a lot of its magic. TBH with the second hand pricing of the Vitus it is a cheaper option than two 200's and it was a good chance to try it. The new version just was released and they sell at almost $20k w/o a DAC so some might expect it to better the 200/250. Luckily, I think it is an improvement and in some areas by a significant margin. There is always something more expensive and better, sometimes I think you need to do the time with the "cheaper" components to realise just how good an upgrade is. The Devialet is a great machine and of course things are changing rapidly with firmware updates , board upgrades etc. I also think how the stream is fed to it may have a big bearing on the final sound as some have already said. If you want to run your music from your Tablet/computer, Roon + Dev is so good. As always in this weird hobby, if it sounds good to you and suits how you listen then go for it. There is definitely no "correct" answer that can be agreed upon. If it makes you want to listen to music more than something else then it is better. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everydayIs25 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 Yes, the power supply on my Pass Labs amplifier is a joke too. Only 30 watts and it consumes 200watts whilst ticking over. Yes if you think your passLabs is a joke too think it probably is a joke.Doesn’t list up those reviews if you are buying depending on number of reviews Devialet probably got a lot more positive reviews but you are not agree to them too. So apparently you got no idea why you still listing the number of reviews, me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 7 hours ago, frednork said: sometimes I think you need to do the time with the "cheaper" components to realise just how good an upgrade is. Good advice for life in general. The vitus was a pretty good saving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 8 hours ago, frednork said: As always in this weird hobby, if it sounds good to you and suits how you listen then go for it. There is definitely no "correct" answer that can be agreed upon. If it makes you want to listen to music more than something else then it is better. Could not have said it better! "Let your ears be the judge" is what I have advised young & old. As long as it sounds good to YOU in your setup, that is all that matters. Some forget there is no one "correct" answer. Rather than argue, let's celebrate the difference; it is what makes this hobby so interesting. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryO Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Could not have said it better! "Let your ears be the judge" is what I have advised young & old. As long as it sounds good to YOU in your setup, that is all that matters. Some forget there is no one "correct" answer. Rather than argue, let's celebrate the difference; it is what makes this hobby so interesting. Totally agree. cheers Terry Edited May 11, 2018 by TerryO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 11 hours ago, scumbag said: Yes, the power supply on my Pass Labs amplifier is a joke too. Only 30 watts and it consumes 200watts whilst ticking over. Yes but how does it sound? Does it make music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Max Headroom said: Yes but how does it sound? Does it make music? Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 10 hours ago, everydayIs25 said: Yes if you think your passLabs is a joke too think it probably is a joke. Doesn’t list up those reviews if you are buying depending on number of reviews Devialet probably got a lot more positive reviews but you are not agree to them too. So apparently you got no idea why you still listing the number of reviews, me either. What does that postveven mean? Sorry but I think you missed my deliberate irony. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) I still think a rotel ra series integrated with a decent turntable and some speakers with a good frequency range would make me happy is I had to start again. Darko did I some interesting articles about how cheap can be satisfying in this hobby. He used the rotel as his example. The earlier ra series were the best before they sandwiched a dac into them. Living sound here in Brisbane has had a rotel ra integrated and a rega or project turntable set up as a starter system for people to listen to for years. Edited May 12, 2018 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 On 11/05/2018 at 10:00 AM, Max Headroom said: No problems Sir Sanders. These things are affected by so many factors! I'm actually questioning whether everything was right but the owner assured me it was a few years old (so its burnt in) and I personally checked that it was running Redcoud and left it on, so likstening on the second night, the DAC had been switched on for quite some time. I actually wanted/thought the DSJ would be up there with the rest of the DACs so I'm scratching my head after reading so many rave reviews. My only question is the screen said Redcloud 0.0.0 See attached photo. Can anyone advise if that all looks right and would give the improvement everyone says the latest firmware delivers? I work in IT so I know how to update firmware, and I did grab the latest release just incase there had been an incremental update, and tried loading the firmware but nothing happened. So I assume its up to date. Ok so did another compare today... a bit of a DAC off really! Had the pleasure of having @Mike13 and @Snoopy8 here to listen to the PS Audio DirectStream Jr, Chord 2Qute and Gieseler GroB. Made sure that I was running latest Redcloud firmware - yes I did wind back to Toreys and Huron and each time restored back to Redcloud. Did that last night. I won't talk for the other 2, although I know @Snoopy8 agrees with me that overall the Gieseler came out ahead clearly. This second round of listening tests just confirmed to me that the PS Audio DirectStream Jr is overpriced and we all didn't know what the hype was about. I know why people like the DS Jr. And why they say it sounds very analog/like vinyl. Yeah if you like your music rolled off in the lower and upper frequencies. This can be very appealing, but once you hear source components that provide a flatter frequency response, more detail and extension, you can't unhear it, and it makes it harder to go back. The DS Jr DAC had a 'fatter' mid bass sound than the other DACs, which could make it sound like it had more bass than the other DACs, but in reality the Chord, and ESPECIALLY the Gieseler had a flatter frequency presentation and reached down further than the DS Jr. They both had more detail, the Gieseler seriously so! The Gieseler created more lifelike images of instruments and musicians, almost as if they're standing infront of you, better separation between instruments, better clarity with complex music. It's just a bargain at the asking price. Clay from @Gieseler Audio really should be congratulated as this DAC is world class if you compare it to the PS Audio DirectSTream Jr. Before anyone decides to flame me, it's not a bad sounding DAC, its actually quite nice and you could live with it easily, its just at the price asked it is overpriced, and the other 2 DACs outclassed it in most areas. And when you consider that the the Geiseler is less than half the cost of the PS Audio, and the 2Qute even less, there's just no argument. The three of us agreed there wasn't a bad DAC in the test, and you could quite easily live with any of the DACs, but differences were apparent, and the PS Audio was not as good. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 thanks @Max Headroom for the hospitality! The system as it was with the OAD equipment and 2Qute sounded pretty awesome. I previously heard the Grob (same one as it turns out) at Snoopy’s place. I couldn’t tell much. Difference between all of them, though I did recognise and like the 2Qute sound. The PS Audio sounded narrower in soundstage and the Grob lacked bass (note that M. Headroom thought the Grob extended deeper and the PS had more upper mid bass). With the PS and 2Qute is sounded like the bass was coming from under the floor. Saved me probably a $2.5k upgrade to the PS. I’d thought the upsampling was going to produce something noticeably different to the 2Qute. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Max Headroom said: Ok so did another compare today... a bit of a DAC off really! Had the pleasure of having @Mike13 and @Snoopy8 here to listen to the PS Audio DirectStream Jr, Chord 2Qute and Gieseler GroB. Made sure that I was running latest Redcloud firmware - yes I did wind back to Toreys and Huron and each time restored back to Redcloud. Did that last night. I won't talk for the other 2, although I know @Snoopy8 agrees with me that overall the Gieseler came out ahead clearly. This second round of listening tests just confirmed to me that the PS Audio DirectStream Jr is overpriced and we all didn't know what the hype was about. I know why people like the DS Jr. And why they say it sounds very analog/like vinyl. Yeah if you like your music rolled off in the lower and upper frequencies. This can be very appealing, but once you hear source components that provide a flatter frequency response, more detail and extension, you can't unhear it, and it makes it harder to go back. The DS Jr DAC had a 'fatter' mid bass sound than the other DACs, which could make it sound like it had more bass than the other DACs, but in reality the Chord, and ESPECIALLY the Gieseler had a flatter frequency presentation and reached down further than the DS Jr. They both had more detail, the Gieseler seriously so! The Gieseler created more lifelike images of instruments and musicians, almost as if they're standing infront of you, better separation between instruments, better clarity with complex music. It's just a bargain at the asking price. Clay from @Gieseler Audio really should be congratulated as this DAC is world class if you compare it to the PS Audio DirectSTream Jr. Before anyone decides to flame me, it's not a bad sounding DAC, its actually quite nice and you could live with it easily, its just at the price asked it is overpriced, and the other 2 DACs outclassed it in most areas. And when you consider that the the Geiseler is less than half the cost of the PS Audio, and the 2Qute even less, there's just no argument. The three of us agreed there wasn't a bad DAC in the test, and you could quite easily live with any of the DACs, but differences were apparent, and the PS Audio was not as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) Well I'm going to have to ask @Bill125812 really nicely if he can bring his GroB over again and have another DAC off in my office setup. This time with the BHK signature preamp in the mix. I've also upgraded all the power cables to OFC Rhodium and gold plated plugs so that has changed the system a lot since the last time Bill was over. There must be other factors at play here with the interaction of the DACs, the cables between and the preamp I guess. Before I changed out power cables, I actually felt that the DSJ was a bit bright - in no way would I or anyone who heard it describe it as rolled off. Sub bass was well and truly present (my 8"woofers throb away nicely during IDM tracks) though I guess the balance of lower bass versus upper bass can be more or less apparent in different setups. I also find that feeding the DAC with a Microrendu (rather than streaming via the bridge) made a big difference to imaging, especially image width. So many factors! Still though, I'm not trying to grasp at straws here, the GroB is a great DAC at a great price. It lacks no feature and if for example you were to buy an UltraRendu (at about a grand) to feed it, you'd still have a lot of change left over compared to buying a DSJ. Edited May 13, 2018 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKay Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, scumbag said: I've also upgraded all the power cables to OFC Rhodium and gold plated plugs so that has changed the system a lot since the last time Bill was over. Do you think the plugs had a tighter connection? I don't understand how gold plating a plug or OFC Rhodium plugs can change the sound of a system - a better connection could (I think). With my Devialet and Lavardin IT I use the cables that were provided by the manufacturer, having compared them to Nordost Heimdall I was happy to go with the provided cords and save a lot of money. Edited May 13, 2018 by PKay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill125812 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 31 minutes ago, scumbag said: Well I'm going to have to ask @Bill125812 really nicely if he can bring his GroB over again and have another DAC off in my office setup. This time with the BHK signature preamp in the mix. I've also upgraded all the power cables to OFC Rhodium and gold plated plugs so that has changed the system a lot since the last time Bill was over. There must be other factors at play here with the interaction of the DACs, the cables between and the preamp I guess. Before I changed out power cables, I actually felt that the DSJ was a bit bright - in no way would I or anyone who heard it describe it as rolled off. Sub bass was well and truly present (my 8"woofers throb away nicely during IDM tracks) though I guess the balance of lower bass versus upper bass can be more or less apparent in different setups. I also find that feeding the DAC with a Microrendu (rather than streaming via the bridge) made a big difference to imaging, especially image width. So many factors! Still though, I'm not trying to grasp at straws here, the GroB is a great DAC at a great price. It lacks no feature and if for example you were to buy an UltraRendu (at about a grand) to feed it, you'd still have a lot of change left over compared to buying a DSJ. I’m in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, PKay said: Do you think the plugs had a tighter connection? I don't understand how gold plating a plug or OFC Rhodium plugs can change the sound of a system - a better connection could (I think). With my Devialet and Lavardin IT I use the cables that were provided by the manufacturer, having compared them to Nordost Heimdall I was happy to go with the provided cords and save a lot of money. I made up the cables myself. OFC copper with a twisted configuration but most importantly very effective shielding in the form of a run of tinned copper and metallic sheathing. The plating is not important to the sound (to me) - rather it ensures a non-corrosive interface. The most important thing I wanted in the project was keep all conductive elements pure copper - the pins in the male plugs (Furetech) and the pins in the IEC sockets are pure copper. Whilst the materials are exotic, I did not pay crazy money for anything. If anyone is skeptical, I will do a demonstration if they want to come over the office. I'll swap all my power cords out for the standard boggo ones. Then I'll swap out the one to the power amp' first, then the preamp and last the DAC. The effect of just the one to the power amp' is astounding. I swapped this one out and my workmate came into my office - he had been on leave and he had no idea what I had done. "What have you done to your setup"? he says. "Where did all the bass come from?". Edited May 13, 2018 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKay Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, scumbag said: I made up the cables myself. OFC copper with a twisted configuration but most importantly very effective shielding in the form of a run of tinned copper and metallic sheathing. The plating is not important to the sound (to me) - rather it ensures a non-corrosive interface. The most important thing I wanted in the project was keep all conductive elements pure copper - the pins in the male plugs (Furetech) and the pins in the IEC sockets are pure copper. Whilst the materials are exotic, I did not pay crazy money for anything. If anyone is skeptical, I will do a demonstration if they want to come over the office. I'll swap all my power cords out for the standard boggo ones. Then I'll swap out the one to the power amp' first, then the preamp and last the DAC. The effect of just the one to the power amp' is astounding. I swapped this one out and my workmate came into my office - he had been on leave and he had no idea what I had done. "What have you done to your setup"? he says. "Where did all the bass come from?". Thanks Mark, I would love to take you up on the offer when I get to Brisbane (not likely this year) I think the test is to go both ways, ie, go back to a generic cable and see if there is a loss of bass. I'm glad that with my systems there was no difference and I ended up selling the expensive Heimdall cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKay Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 @scumbagthe offer goes both ways I would happily spend some time with you using my system and your cable if you come down to Sydney. I would love to find a cheap tweak that improves my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Max Headroom said: Ok so did another compare today... a bit of a DAC off really! Had the pleasure of having @Mike13 and @Snoopy8 here to listen to the PS Audio DirectStream Jr, Chord 2Qute and Gieseler GroB. Made sure that I was running latest Redcloud firmware - yes I did wind back to Toreys and Huron and each time restored back to Redcloud. Did that last night. I won't talk for the other 2, although I know @Snoopy8 agrees with me that overall the Gieseler came out ahead clearly. This second round of listening tests just confirmed to me that the PS Audio DirectStream Jr is overpriced and we all didn't know what the hype was about. I know why people like the DS Jr. And why they say it sounds very analog/like vinyl. Yeah if you like your music rolled off in the lower and upper frequencies. This can be very appealing, but once you hear source components that provide a flatter frequency response, more detail and extension, you can't unhear it, and it makes it harder to go back. The DS Jr DAC had a 'fatter' mid bass sound than the other DACs, which could make it sound like it had more bass than the other DACs, but in reality the Chord, and ESPECIALLY the Gieseler had a flatter frequency presentation and reached down further than the DS Jr. They both had more detail, the Gieseler seriously so! The Gieseler created more lifelike images of instruments and musicians, almost as if they're standing infront of you, better separation between instruments, better clarity with complex music. It's just a bargain at the asking price. Clay from @Gieseler Audio really should be congratulated as this DAC is world class if you compare it to the PS Audio DirectSTream Jr. Before anyone decides to flame me, it's not a bad sounding DAC, its actually quite nice and you could live with it easily, its just at the price asked it is overpriced, and the other 2 DACs outclassed it in most areas. And when you consider that the the Geiseler is less than half the cost of the PS Audio, and the 2Qute even less, there's just no argument. The three of us agreed there wasn't a bad DAC in the test, and you could quite easily live with any of the DACs, but differences were apparent, and the PS Audio was not as good. Firstly, thank you @Max Headroom for hosting @Mike13 and myself, and letting us appreciate your excellent system. As per previous posts, we had some interesting and differing findings, but here is my opinion: Given the many comparisons with the Groß (6 Oct 17, 28 Nov 17, 22 Jan 18, 18 Jan 18, 11 Mar 18), I wanted to hear the DSJ first hand. Expected it to match the Groß and comfortably beat the 2Qute. Maybe Max made a mistake with the firmware in his earlier comparison? We used Max's 2Qute, a borrowed DSJ (with Redcloud) and my usb only Groß with Tidal PCM as the source. Music was more familiar to Mike and Max. The Groß came across better than both the DSJ and 2Qute, particularly in the details and precision of instruments. The Groß brought out the details of music that was missing in the DSJ and 2Qute. Not only the detail but also where the instrument was placed in the wider sound stage; could pick up clearly its location and more realistic. The female voice was more life like, more nuanced. By contrast, the DSJ and 2Qute were "woolly". What about the DSJ versus the 2Qute? They were similar, with points going to the DSJ for better instrument placement. In summary, the Groß came out top for 2 of us. What surprised was the DSJ not performing as well as expected. Mike re-confirmed his 6 Mar 13 finding that there is not enough difference between the 2Qute and Groß, nor the DSJ, to change . p/s as a finishing track, used my DSD test track Gjeilo: North Country II. The Groß was better, reconfirming once again how good it manages.DSD. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 Ha! I remebered that I’d compared the Grob to the Bluesound Node DAC, but it was actually the 2Qute. I possibly did hear correctly the first time that the bass in more prominent with the 2Qute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted May 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted May 13, 2018 So now we need to compare the gross to the devialet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike13 Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 Both are supposed to be very detailed. Best way would be to turn off the Devialet DAC, if that’s possible, and replace with Gross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Mike13 said: Both are supposed to be very detailed. Best way would be to turn off the Devialet DAC, if that’s possible, and replace with Gross. The Devialet sends everything through the DAC so there is no bypass option I'm afraid. Edited May 13, 2018 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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