High end integrated amps

[kukynas]

5 minutes ago, Tubularbells said:

For me the value proposition was:

 

• Doesnt need 1+hours after switch on to sound its best
• Doesn't cost me $20/hr to run due to inefficiencies in the design
• Runs cool (which is important in my non air conditioned environment)
• Gives me 800w into 4 ohms for when I want the band in my room
• Fully integrated saving me $$ on cables and rack space

 

+ less electronics to take care of or tweak/change

[betty boop]

10 minutes ago, Tubularbells said:

 

 

I get what you're saying about the potential for manufacturers to be taking the piss  (I really do) however if upon opening you were faced with a behemoth transformer and 100 shiny transistors per channel would it really make you feel any better?

 

For me the value proposition was:

 

• Doesnt need 1+hours after switch on to sound its best
• Doesn't cost me $20/hr to run due to inefficiencies in the design
• Runs cool (which is important in my non air conditioned environment)
• Gives me 800w into 4 ohms for when I want the band in my room
• Fully integrated saving me $$ on cables and rack space

~

 

 

 

 

regardless of the value proposition. which look everyone will make there own value judgements. no matter what am sure there will be someone coming along saying they can make something lot cheaper them selves or theres something else thats better value. 

 

11 minutes ago, Tubularbells said:

But most importantly it sounds fantastic beating any other amplifier I have had in my room from Class A to class A/B, valve,transistor or mosfet. That is what's important to me.

 

and indeed that is the most important thing I think. I know a few who have bought jeff rowland and been happy, who is anyone else to bring that into question.

[thewaves]

If you want smart, passionate, capable people to make us all hifi gear that pushes the boundary of incredible sound then there is a price to pay. I like these:

 

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/analog-domain-isis-integrated-amplifier_30.html

 

 

[SdP]

what about integrated amps with no price restrictions??

[Cafad]

6 hours ago, SdP said:

what about integrated amps with no price restrictions??

I thought we crossed into that sphere when the Technical Brain was mentioned as an option?  

[JukKluk2]

There really should be a, "why didn't I think of that?", button on here.

[Peter-C]

I thought we crossed into that sphere when the Technical Brain was mentioned as an option?  

Yeah, the OP, @ex brickie stated $6k-$20k.
Another option... a Pass int-30a integrated, like I have, or it's int-150 brother.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[georgehifi]

On 2017-5-27 at 6:01 PM, georgehifi said:

 

Well spotted, cost of which ready made in China would be peanuts, even with slight mods for JR.

http://discosoundequipment.sell.everychina.com/p-99120690-professional-audio-disco-sound-equipment-class-d-modules-for-active-speakers.html

 

There you go Whites you to can make one.

 

Cheers George

 

 

 

 

Not only do Rowland Research use this Class-D module in the  Rowland Continuum 2, but this same module is used in the Red Dragon S500 Class-d for substantial less cost, "probably" not as tweaked.

https://www.reddragonaudio.com/products/s500?variant=969867425

Does anyone know what the cost is on these Sanway Audio modules? I wouldn't mind to power the bass in my system with it.

 

Cheers George 

Edited May 28, 2017 by georgehifi

[Addicted to music]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

 

 

Not only do Rowland Research use this Class-D module in the  Rowland Continuum 2, but this same module is used in the Red Dragon S500 Class-d for substantial less cost, "probably" not as tweaked.

https://www.reddragonaudio.com/products/s500?variant=969867425

Does anyone know what the cost is on these Sanway Audio modules? I wouldn't mind to power the bass in my system with it.

 

Cheers George 

 

No George,

 

I recommend you stay away from any class D.  It wouldn't do your bass any justice.  Too many HF interference effecting anything below 80hz that your bat capable hearing detect....   It then forces you to post your disapproval here and how it upsets you!  It would really then give some class D manufacturers some feedback to there R&D to come up with something 10th of the cost of the cost and will sound 100X better than a ME850....now we wouldn't want that to happen do we?  

[Cafad]

Quite possibly too cheap for the OPs budget but this popped up in the classifieds yesterday.

 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/123685-fs-plinius-hautonga-integrated-amplifier/

 

[mwhouston]

Originally there was only integrated(s). Then we were led to believe the best sound came from seperates. But I think we have come full circle and very high performance integrated amps probably out-perform yesteryear's seperates. 

 

Think what you can save in dollars from a preamp and cables you can put into a really good integrated. Also, these days, there is often a DAC and streaming built in.  Got to be the way to go for the dedicated music lover. The rest of us gear centrics will just keep flipping. 

[JukKluk2]

4 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Originally there was only integrated(s). Then we were led to believe the best sound came from seperates. But I think we have come full circle and very high performance integrated amps probably out-perform yesteryear's seperates. 

 

Think what you can save in dollars from a preamp and cables you can put into a really good integrated. Also, these days, there is often a DAC and streaming built in.  Got to be the way to go for the dedicated music lover. The rest of us gear centrics will just keep flipping. 

It's not that long ago (well, perhaps it is) that the likes of The Absolute Sound and Stereophile were reviewing pre-amps (they never reviewed integrated amps back then) based upon the performance solely of the phono stage. The line stage capabilities were never given a thought. So, yes, I agree with you that amps with a built in dac and possibly a streamer are going to become more common as time progresses. Quite possibly the last thirty years will be looked back upon as an interim period between the demise of the phono pre-eminent amp and the dac-eminent amp.

This, I believe, will be a good thing as it will provide an easier access for the next generation into our world. 

[tubularbells]

Continuum S2 uses the M-PRO2 module manufactured by Pascal which differs from the one posted in the link above and is not the one used in the Red Dragon S500....just sayin'

[georgehifi]

40 minutes ago, Tubularbells said:

Continuum S2 uses the M-PRO2 module manufactured by Pascal which differs from the one posted in the link above and is not the one used in the Red Dragon S500....just sayin'

 

Could be either looking at this, one of them is the main supplier as they look like they come from the same factory, my bet is the Chinese one. And maybe the Holland one tweaks it for Rowland?

http://www.pascal-audio.com/amplifier-modules.html

    

Edited May 29, 2017 by georgehifi

[ex brickie]

8 hours ago, Cafad said:

Quite possibly too cheap for the OPs budget but this popped up in the classifieds yesterday.

 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/123685-fs-plinius-hautonga-integrated-amplifier/

 

I'm good with low prices but I need something that will be a significant and noticeable improvement over my ATC

[Rob181]

1 hour ago, ex brickie said:

I'm good with low prices but I need something that will be a significant and noticeable improvement over my ATC

 

Best of luck with that...my guess is that the landscape around quality integrateds will increase significantly over the next 2 years...

[Al.M]

2 hours ago, Rob181 said:

 

Best of luck with that...my guess is that the landscape around quality integrateds will increase significantly over the next 2 years...

 

The question of separates vs intergrated amps is previously discussed here on SNA and wider forums at 

and http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/integrated-vs-separates.500870/

 

I believe the OP stated for their needs it must be integrated due to space constraints. Others stated the cost of interconnects between separates is better spent on quality intergrated amp, which is not correct. As many have found going from intergrated to separates there is a much greater performance leap than what interconnects can achieve alone.

 

This is a difficult question to answer as so far we have only seen snippets of largely inconsistant comparisons. Ideally we need comparisons of say 5-10 quality intergrateds vs 5-10 quality separates of the same value to reach a more reliable but probably still subjective conclusion.

 

With lower to medium end intergrated amps I have dramatically improved the sound by connecting a medium level ($500-1000) preamp. It should be possible to achieve the same with the OP's ATC intergrated amp. For example, you can experiment by finding a used Audio Research or Conrad Johnson tube preamp for around $700-1500 (e.g. Audio Rsearch Ls 7 and similar and CJ PV 10 or 11 models) and see what the affect is. If it doesn't work out you can onsell the preamp for no loss in the used market. The preamp to intergrated amp connection can be done either by using the intergrated amp as purely a power amp or via one of the input out RCAs. When I have done this with medium to lower end gear the tube preamp dramatically lifted clarity, detail and imaging. I have no doubt that higher end preamps like a used $1500-2000 Supratek Preamp (see below pic), more expensive AR and CJ preamps and similar would be like night and day if space constraints do not limit. It should also be possible to find a separate combo that takes up about the same space or only a little more than a chunky intergrated amp anyway.

 

In my earlier account in this topic of listening to a $8000 Yamaha intergrated amp with $20K Yamaha NS5000 3 way full range speakers, as good as it was I could still detect similar failings that I have always experienced with intergrateds vs separates, basicallly some congestion and muddleness in the sound, than on my current separate system I experience less of. Granted, I have not heard more expensive and greater range of current intergrated amps that are out there.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Al.M

[Rob181]

@ex brickie...speaking of quality integrated amps...

 

 

[Guest rogerthat]

This has to go on the list:

 

 

 

[MusicOne]

I think we can confidently add this one to the list: http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/amplifier/set-62b82b-series/crossfire-iii-crossfire-pa.html

 

[Audiome]

14 minutes ago, MusicOne said:

I think we can confidently add this one to the list: http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/amplifier/set-62b82b-series/crossfire-iii-crossfire-pa.html

 

 I am a big fan of Ayon gears

Edited May 30, 2017 by audiome

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

On 29/05/2017 at 10:48 AM, mwhouston said:

Originally there was only integrated(s). Then we were led to believe the best sound came from seperates. But I think we have come full circle and very high performance integrated amps probably out-perform yesteryear's seperates. 

 

Think what you can save in dollars from a preamp and cables you can put into a really good integrated. Also, these days, there is often a DAC and streaming built in.  Got to be the way to go for the dedicated music lover. The rest of us gear centrics will just keep flipping. 

I just wonder whether rather than source and integrated, whether a  good DAC/pre and excellent power amp is a better bet, at least for digital.This puts all the components in one box (the DAC/pre) that may become outdated in one box; the power amp is likely to be good for much longer, in the present climate where you may find yourself needing to add new formats or get better DSP/volume control in the short term.

[Cafad]

Maybe we should be digging deeper into the details here.  Hey Nick ( @ex brickie) what genres of music do you listen to and what is it about the Diablo/ATC combo that you like the most, is there any area you think could be better and is there anything it does that you just couldn't live without.

It isn't an easy subject to discuss but it just might give some of us an idea as to which direction you should be looking in.

A big part of the problem here (if we can call it that) is that ATC amps are so thin on the ground that very few of us have any idea what they sound like so if we are going to get any further than high end suggestions I think we need more info.

[ex brickie]

@Cafad OK here goes....

 

Yours is a very good question because if the truth be known the amp is fabulous! 

 

ATC equipment is amazingly neutral - it doesn't have a signature sound. So to give you a comparison first I've owned early Arcam (warm), Audiolab pre + monos (not enough detail), Linn Wakonda + 3 x LK280 (lean Linn sound). In demos I've heard Naim (too 'in your face') 

 

musical tastes are mainly 80s rock/pop and vocalists. But I genuinely listen to anything from 60s (Beach Boys, Beatles, Motown), Michael Jackson, Paul Weller, Natalie Merchant, Crowded House, then the usual Dire Straits, Springsteen, Fleetwood etc. 

 

I do however listen to some classical but this is a small part of my music diet. I like organ (church organ) music but my speakers (Focal Diablo) are a limitation as they don't do the deep bass

 

There's nothing I don't like about the ATC. But when I recently went to a demo of a MF NuVista 800 with Yamaha NS5000 speakers I found a few things. First (obviously) deeper bass but that wasn't my main sense of improvement. What I liked was even greater detail,and realism than I have already, better layering together with a fluidity that was lovely to listen to. If you know Focal speakers they are in the upfront category but are renowned for being able to,take top notch electronics. I don't want to change the Focals as the detail presented is pretty amazing - I think I can be greedy and get some,of those extra layers and textures and detail from an amp. The Vitus seems to be the right amp that is a significant step up and has the detail and possible tone I'm looking for. 

 

Im sure someone will suggest valves and Focals are supposed to,work well with valves. But I have no knowledge of what level of improvement I would get for my money and being in Townsville no chance of hearing anything easily (although I will be in Brisbane for a couple of days in late July). . If you look up the Lotus Hifi dealer website in the U.K. It has a great article about moving up from quite high end Naim electronics to Vitus. That to me sounds like a decent level upgrade

 

hope,that gives a bit more context. I'll have hassles later with cables (mine are decent but RCA and the Vitus takes some XLRs )

[thewaves]

17 minutes ago, ex brickie said:

@Cafad OK here goes....

 

Yours is a very good question because if the truth be known the amp is fabulous! 

 

ATC equipment is amazingly neutral - it doesn't have a signature sound. So to give you a comparison first I've owned early Arcam (warm), Audiolab pre + monos (not enough detail), Linn Wakonda + 3 x LK280 (lean Linn sound). In demos I've heard Naim (too 'in your face') 

 

musical tastes are mainly 80s rock/pop and vocalists. But I genuinely listen to anything from 60s (Beach Boys, Beatles, Motown), Michael Jackson, Paul Weller, Natalie Merchant, Crowded House, then the usual Dire Straits, Springsteen, Fleetwood etc. 

 

I do however listen to some classical but this is a small part of my music diet. I like organ (church organ) music but my speakers (Focal Diablo) are a limitation as they don't do the deep bass

 

There's nothing I don't like about the ATC. But when I recently went to a demo of a MF NuVista 800 with Yamaha NS5000 speakers I found a few things. First (obviously) deeper bass but that wasn't my main sense of improvement. What I liked was even greater detail,and realism than I have already, better layering together with a fluidity that was lovely to listen to. If you know Focal speakers they are in the upfront category but are renowned for being able to,take top notch electronics. I don't want to change the Focals as the detail presented is pretty amazing - I think I can be greedy and get some,of those extra layers and textures and detail from an amp. The Vitus seems to be the right amp that is a significant step up and has the detail and possible tone I'm looking for. 

 

Im sure someone will suggest valves and Focals are supposed to,work well with valves. But I have no knowledge of what level of improvement I would get for my money and being in Townsville no chance of hearing anything easily (although I will be in Brisbane for a couple of days in late July). . If you look up the Lotus Hifi dealer website in the U.K. It has a great article about moving up from quite high end Naim electronics to Vitus. That to me sounds like a decent level upgrade

 

hope,that gives a bit more context. I'll have hassles later with cables (mine are decent but RCA and the Vitus takes some XLRs )

 

I'm going to give the Analog Domain Isis a go - I will let you know how it sounds..