Help me fix this room

[Jone5y]

Hello all,

 

 

Following Cafads review of my Naksa 80 I've decided i really need to do something about my room. I am not getting a hint of the 2 or 3D soundstaging he found and enjoued so much. Being immersed in the sound and having the speakers disappear was something i fell in love with when i took the speakers to my local store to audition some CD players and amps but unfortunately, is also the one thing i cannot recreate in my room. To this point i have experimented with enough different components feeding the speakers to know what benefit they can give and none have made significant impact on the soundstage. The system as it stands at the the moment is Cambridge audio 651 cd player into Naksa 80 via Aurealis interconnects and onto DIY RG213U speaker cable feeding VAF DCX-35's.

 

The room is laid out as below and depending on the season the lounge positions will move to the side of the room:

Facing the front:

 

Facing left (Right is a mirror image)

 

Rear

 

My problem is outlined in the rough sketch below. The centre image does not, under any circumstances, move from the base of the TV - centre of the speakers, 60cm off the floor. I can get very good separation between instruments and their placement left to right is easily identifiable but the voice is consistently located in the one position. The  region that music appears to come from is outlined by the crescent. As you can see it is quite flat and does not usually extend laterally past the speakers either.

 

So, my questions are:

1. Where would you start in terms of treatment or otherwise to give some depth/height to my music?
2. Is there anything i've missed in the signal chain causing me problems?
3. There has been mumblings from my wife of swinging the room contents 180 degrees and having all components and seating position reversed. Should this be pursued?
4. Would i be better off separating music from this room altogether and leave it for TV and Movies - try my luck in a different room?

I have tried:

• opening the doors to reduce reflections
• covering the TV
• Removing the coffee table
• Mattresses placed either behind the speakers or in front of TV - not both at the same time

At this stage I'm happy to try anything but ideas that have low WAF will need to be handled delicately.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Jone5y

[cazzesman]

If you just want to improve the audio listening alone I would move the speakers closer together and move the double couch to where the table is.   That is purely for personal listening.    Place the speakers just on the width of the TV cabinet then set up the two seater the same distance infront i.e. triangle set up.    Toe in the speakers to the listening position and see how you go then.

 

I think for pure audio, in the current position, the sounds are bouncing all around of the various surfaces.  As one note is reaching you from the speaker previous ones are bouncing from the back wall.   The brick wall behind right where you head is won't show you any love. 

 

Give it a fly.

 

Some portable baffles on wheels/feet that you can move in and out between the listening position and brickwork might also help.    Likewise portable panels at the 1st/2nd reflection points. 

 

Regards Cazzesman

[cazzesman]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=838352&gclid=CKq37JHk6sMCFY-XvQodaHoAtg&Q=&is=REG&A=details

 

Here is just an example.   DIY with acoustisorb 3.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[Guest myrantz]

Lovely place you've got there. 

 

How acoustically transparent are the speaker covers? Have you tried removing 'em? Does the imaging improve without the covers?

In general for speakers to disappear the tweeters more or less have to be at ear height (or slightly higher), use an office chair and move around to find that perfect triangle relative to the room. And once you know where the sweet spot is, you can adjust the speakers in (or out) to fine tune the image width, and add room treatments if necessary... 

 

Music wise for horizontal sounds I used Amused to Death by Roger Waters (as it uses Q Sound and has extreme lefts and rights - bigger crescent and also some depth, e.g. the chariot sound effects. The first track, there will be a dog barking in the beginning, that dog will sound like it's outside the room and behind you).  For heights I used Nitin Sawheney The Pilgrim.. These have very easy audio queues (and at the beginning of the track) too.. Another good disc will be the DSOTM SACD (you can try playing the stereo layer of Time in phase, and out of phase), one of 'em will have the chimes high up and fill up the whole room.

If you get these three albums to image well it will more or less work with anything out there (This is IMO only, so YMMV)...

If you want vocals that move around the stage, I think (can't be sure as I am havn't played that in a while) one example would be Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall, the guy can't stand still  ...

 

If u have those albums, give it a spin...

[Steam]

Probably no help but I assume your speaker connections are correct. Ie not out of phase. Easy mistake to make when the cable is twisted behind the amp.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Lord Osmium

[henry218]

try to put your speakers nearer to each other, let say 2.7m from centre to centre.

[Jone5y]

duplicate post

Edited February 18, 2015 by Jone5y

[Jone5y]

Hmm, dunno what happened to my previous post. I was incredibly witty and impossibly humorous btw. Oh well, I guess we're stuck with this response instead.

 

If you just want to improve the audio listening alone I would move the speakers closer together and move the double couch to where the table is.  

Regards Cazzesman

 

try to put your speakers nearer to each other, let say 2.7m from centre to centre.

Done, with immediate transformation of soundstage width. The track from amused to death with the horses now seems to have them starting outside my room and exiting out the other side. They do recede toward the TV when traversing between the speakers but its a massive improvement, thankyou

 

How acoustically transparent are the speaker covers? Have you tried removing 'em? Does the imaging improve without the covers?

I assumed they were transparent, they are slightly visually transparent. I didn't consider the manufacturer would hobble them in such a fashion but its certainly possible. Testing with grills off has been done before but it wasn't with a great spinner and it didn't show me much other than how horridly ugly they are with the grills off. I will repeat in their new position.

 

Music wise for horizontal sounds I used Amused to Death by Roger Waters (as it uses Q Sound and has extreme lefts and rights - bigger crescent and also some depth, e.g. the chariot sound effects. The first track, there will be a dog barking in the beginning, that dog will sound like it's outside the room and behind you).  For heights I used Nitin Sawheney The Pilgrim.. These have very easy audio queues (and at the beginning of the track) too.. Another good disc will be the DSOTM SACD (you can try playing the stereo layer of Time in phase, and out of phase), one of 'em will have the chimes high up and fill up the whole room.

If you get these three albums to image well it will more or less work with anything out there (This is IMO only, so YMMV)...

I have AMD and it will be getting a good run tomorrow, also have some Floyd but no SACD, will check and see what in the collection. Haven't heard the Pilgrim but it sounds like it'd be worth tracking down

 

Probably no help but I assume your speaker connections are correct. Ie not out of phase. Easy mistake to make when the cable is twisted behind the amp.

Yeah, I so badly wanted this to be the case, checked and checked and rechecked, even connected them out of phase incorrectly just to be sure. Alas, all is well on that front.

 

In general for speakers to disappear the tweeters more or less have to be at ear height (or slightly higher), use an office chair and move around to find that perfect triangle relative to the room.

That is definitely how my room behaves, to get detail and all the highs I must be seated, anything else and the music becomes a bit bass heavy. What has me confused though is that when i heard them in the store I was standing and wandered all over the place. There was no discernible difference in the 3D effect. I've almost come to the conclusion that the long skinny room i heard them in was artificially contributing to what i heard and has shifted my perceptions of what is possible in my environment. Hasn't stopped me chasing it though. Yet.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Jone5y

[koputai]

That's a nicely shaped room, it should be great with the right treatment.

 

Rear - I'd be putting absorption on around 50% of that big brick wall behind you, and heavy

drapes to close off the echo chamber on each side of it! ie, the two alcoves left and right

at the back of the room.

 

Some soft furnishings along the two low walls behind you if you can. Maybe a few bean bags

would look inconspicuous? Or big cushions? Women LOVE cushions, you shouldn't get any

drama there!

 

Side walls/windows - try just lowering all your blinds, and angle them all down at 45 to 60 degrees

so most reflections hit your carpet, and what makes it through gets re-reflected in the window space.

 

Front wall - Shouldn't be too much of a drama. You'll be getting a little bit of first reflection from the

speakers, and some re-reflection from the back walls. If you can get some acoustic panels on that

front wall, even a little bit of coverage, it will make a difference. Something like 4' x 2' by 3" thick

panels such as these either side of the TV. I know this brand as I use them myself, but other brands

of proper panels should work as well.

 

http://www.primacoustic.com/broadway-broadband-absorbers-specs.htm

 

The ceiling looks like a nightmare at first glance, but in reality it's probably not that bad. If you could

whack some carpet (or preferably panels) along the face of the beam that runs across above the

coffee table you'll stop HF reflections being bounced straight from your tweeters to the beam and

thence to the front wall.

 

Anyhow, a few things to think about there. You've just got to think of sound being a bit like light.

Where does it reflect? Where does it reflect a couple of times and come straight back at you?

 

Cheers,

Jason.

Edited February 18, 2015 by koputai

[Jventer]

A few thoughts:

• Have you asked the guys at VAF
• The triangle method ?
• The glass on the side - no no
• Cant see what is on the other side?

 

Get a microphone and REW and pay Paul Spencer to help you.

 

All the best

[Hifiplus]

With speakers close together, I suggest no toe in. Have them more or less pointing straight ahead, this will throw more hf to the sides.

The alternative would be to move the speakers way out wide, just to the point of losing centre image (in stereo mode) that is.

[waricle]

Walk around the room stopping at various positions and clap your hands once and listen for reflected and decaying sounds from the speaker position l, c r, and in the listening position for an idea of how the room sounds, it won't solve anything except give you an idea of the effect of the reflections of the large brick wall behind you and the smaller ones either side.

A lot of your bass problems will be cured by changing the speaker and/ or listening position

A lot of the difference in your final position is whether you want a holographic image in a sweet spot or adequate sound over a wide listening area, sadly it's almost impossible to have both.

As others have said, speaker width, toe in or out, distance, and distance from back & side walls will determine the final position.

One of my setups was so room intrusive that I marked the position of the speakers and had a second, less intrusive, position for non critical listening.

The effort is definitely worth the reward.

[RankStranger]

Women LOVE cushions,

 

Ha! Just this.

[Jone5y]

A few thoughts:

• Have you asked the guys at VAF
• The triangle method ?
• The glass on the side - no no
• Cant see what is on the other side?

 

Get a microphone and REW and pay Paul Spencer to help you.

 

All the best

1. Yes. Even paid them a visit but they didn't have my model to listen to, just the new 63's. imaging in their (less than ideal) showroom was not great
2. Triangle, Cardas and a few others. Triangle has provided best results thus far but it does leave a lot of the room 'unused' which feels a bit weird. Small price to pay though
3. I know the glass is bad (the other side is an exact replica). Won't be getting soft curtains to cover them unless SWMBO decides to swing the room around and revamp the whole shebang Outside the sliding glass doors to both sides is the exterior of the house
4. Was all set to have him do it first hand when he was in Sydney last year but the timing was terrible. Your suggestion is definitely still on the table for me

[Jone5y]

@@koputai Thanks for taking the time to compose such a thorough response. Its good to know the room can come good, eventually. I've started laying the groundwork for a few things you've suggested.

• The beanbags were actually placed in storage for the photos so they can make a return. My 4yo loves them.
• I'll give the reflection angle more of a go now I've made some progress, i couldn't get it to do much earlier
• Every month or so i drop a hint about making the back wall prettier - Once the boss gets interested I'll steer things in the direction best for diffusion/absorbtion
• I had previously thought the open voids were a good thing but there is significant echo in the room. I'll start hanging some big heavy stuff there and see what improvement i can get
• Anything on the roof or main beam will be a bit of a struggle but i may be able to get away with it if the treatment goes on the front side and isn't visible from the main seats.

[Jone5y]

Walk around the room stopping at various positions and clap your hands once and listen for reflected and decaying sounds from the speaker position l, c r, and in the listening position for an idea of how the room sounds,

This is one thing i had read but not yet attempted, from memory it is the "WASP" technique, no? Given there is evident echo in the room i think i can make gains doing as you suggest. I can try and position the speakers in the areas affected least by reflection

 

A lot of the difference in your final position is whether you want a holographic image in a sweet spot or adequate sound over a wide listening area, sadly it's almost impossible to have both.

As I've got just the one system, located in the main living room the speakers are backed up to the wall whenever i have company. Thus, general viewing and listening is compromised so I am aiming for holographic imaging from one spot when I'm listening in isolation.

[waricle]

[PDF]WATT / Puppy Series 7 - Wilson Audio

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Speaker Placement/Listening Position . .... APPLICATIONS. Your WATT (Wilson Audio Tiny Tot) precision loudspeaker system was de- signed and developed by ...[PDF]WATT / Puppy Series 7 - Wilson Audio

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Once you have established the position mark it ( invisibly or cunningly but accurately) for instant gratification!!

[Guest]

Just for interest sake in keeping (change room acoustics completely) with good audio from a stereo, consider black carpeting between ceiling truss. Hear what happens.

[betty boop]

jonesy, I've always found these simple suggestions below from focal in utilising room furnishings to treat a room as quite useful in a typical lounge room style setting, what you want is a good mix between absorbing furnishings...and diffusive ...

"User instructions

The sound rendition of the loudspeaker depends strongly upon the listening room acoustics, the place of the

loudspeakers and the listening area. These factors can be modified in order to correct or enhance a desired

effect.

Should the soundstage be imprecise or not centred, try to move the loudspeakers closer to each other.

Harsh or aggressive sound means that your listening room is probably too reflective. Try to use any absorbing materials (such as tapestries, sofa, wall coverings, curtains combined with reflective materials to absorb or diffuse resonances.

Should the sound be flat” or muffled, there are too many absorbing materials in the listening room. The sound appears to be closed-in, with a narrow stereophonic image. Try to find a better compromise

between absorbing and reflective materials within your listening room. Generally the wall to the rear of

the speakers should be made up of reflective materials so that the sound image exhibits satisfying volume and width. On the contrary the wall on the rear of the listener should be absorbing in order to avoid reflections damaging the perception of the stereo soundstage. These reflections may limit the impression of depth of the sound image. Furniture, such as bookshelves should be ideally placed along the side walls in order to diffuse sound waves and to prevent some frequencies from being amplified, especially in vocal range (it removes flutter echo)."

in your setup some things stand out are that apart form the carpet...the rest looks like hard reflecting surfaces

some thick heavy blinds for the windows...the rear of the room worries me with all that hard brick...some treatment panels here e.g. below might be useful...

otherwise bookshelves...cd cases... what ever takes fancy to breakup the brick walls there,

also dimensionally the speakers look a long way forward...but the couch looks a long way back against the wall. have you considered the rule of thirds for placement of the speakers and listening position ?

ie place speakers at 1/3rd room length into the room at most...but then sit at the 2/3rd distance from the front wall ...will also have the side benefit of taking you away from the back wall with its reflections...

with imaging its all about positioning of speakers apart vs distance away from front wall...and how you are placed vs the speakers...ie inside or outside the equilateral. how much toe in you use can also impact. from none ie firing directly forward, to aiming at points so 1ft away from ears...to direct toe in aiming right at your ears... something to experiment with...I'd grab a computer chair so can move yourself forward and back...and play with distance between the speakers...where they are positioned and toe in

[mpearce38]

I find this video very informative, would not recommend going to this extreme if you want to stay in a realtionship but he covers the fundamentals in a very clear and easy to understand way.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbLVjHfHahg

[waricle]

jonesy, I've always found these simple suggestions below from focal in utilising room furnishings to treat a room as quite useful in a typical lounge room style setting, what you want is a good mix between absorbing furnishings...and diffusive ...absolutely!!

 

"User instructions

The sound rendition of the loudspeaker depends strongly upon the listening room acoustics, the place of theloudspeakers and the listening area. These factors can be modified in order to correct or enhance a desiredeffect.Should the soundstage be imprecise or not centred, try to move the loudspeakers closer to each other.Harsh or aggressive sound means that your listening room is probably too reflective. Try to use any absorbing materials (such as tapestries, sofa, wall coverings, curtains combined with reflective materials to absorb or diffuse resonances.Should the sound be flat†or muffled, there are too many absorbing materials in the listening room. The sound appears to be closed-in, with a narrow stereophonic image. Try to find a better compromisebetween absorbing and reflective materials within your listening room. Generally the wall to the rear ofthe speakers should be made up of reflective materials so that the sound image exhibits satisfying volume and width. On the contrary the wall on the rear of the listener should be absorbing in order to avoid reflections damaging the perception of the stereo soundstage. These reflections may limit the impression of depth of the sound image. Furniture, such as bookshelves should be ideally placed along the side walls in order to diffuse sound waves and to prevent some frequencies from being amplified, especially in vocal range (it removes flutter echo)."

 

in your setup some things stand out are that apart form the carpet...the rest looks like hard reflecting surfaces

 

some thick heavy blinds for the windows...the rear of the room worries me with all that hard brick...some treatment panels here e.g. below might be useful...

 

 

 

 

otherwise bookshelves...cd cases... what ever takes fancy to breakup the brick walls there,

 

also dimensionally the speakers look a long way forward...but the couch looks a long way back against the wall. have you considered the rule of thirds for placement of the speakers and listening position ? 

 

ie place speakers at 1/3rd room length into the room at most...but then sit at the 2/3rd distance from the front wall ...will also have the side benefit of taking you away from the back wall with its reflections...

 

with imaging its all about positioning of speakers apart vs distance away from front wall...and how you are placed vs the speakers...ie inside or outside the equilateral. how much toe in you use can also impact. from none to aiming at points so 1ft away from ears...to direct toe in aiming right at your ears... something to experiment with...I'd grab a computer chair so can move yourself forward and back...and play with distance between the speakers...where they are positioned and toe in

[Guest guru]

I don't see how you can get any other sound out of the system with the speakers being pulled so far of the rear wall.aside from sounding like a big pair of headphones, I would think that you would be able to hear each driver working seperately in the boxes. With no boundary reinforcement, I can understand why the top end disappears when you stand up. I don't think the acoustic would through too many challenges as the ceiling height seems fine and the exposed brickwork seems rough enough to have some diffusion effect.

Knock yourself out with treating the room but until you figure out proper speaker positioning, good luck.

[Jone5y]

jonesy, I've always found these simple suggestions below from focal in utilising room furnishings to treat a room as quite useful in a typical lounge room style setting, what you want is a good mix between absorbing furnishings...and diffusive ...

"User instructions

The sound rendition of the loudspeaker depends strongly upon the listening room acoustics, the place of the

loudspeakers and the listening area. These factors can be modified in order to correct or enhance a desired

effect.

Should the soundstage be imprecise or not centred, try to move the loudspeakers closer to each other.

Harsh or aggressive sound means that your listening room is probably too reflective. Try to use any absorbing materials (such as tapestries, sofa, wall coverings, curtains combined with reflective materials to absorb or diffuse resonances.

Should the sound be flat†or muffled, there are too many absorbing materials in the listening room. The sound appears to be closed-in, with a narrow stereophonic image. Try to find a better compromise

between absorbing and reflective materials within your listening room. Generally the wall to the rear of

the speakers should be made up of reflective materials so that the sound image exhibits satisfying volume and width. On the contrary the wall on the rear of the listener should be absorbing in order to avoid reflections damaging the perception of the stereo soundstage. These reflections may limit the impression of depth of the sound image. Furniture, such as bookshelves should be ideally placed along the side walls in order to diffuse sound waves and to prevent some frequencies from being amplified, especially in vocal range (it removes flutter echo)."

in your setup some things stand out are that apart form the carpet...the rest looks like hard reflecting surfaces

some thick heavy blinds for the windows...the rear of the room worries me with all that hard brick...some treatment panels here e.g. below might be useful...

dimensionally the speakers look a long way forward...but the couch looks a long way back against the wall. have you considered the rule of thirds for placement of the speakers and listening position ?

ie place speakers at 1/3rd room length into the room at most...but then sit at the 2/3rd distance from the front wall ...will also have the side benefit of taking you away from the back wall with its reflections...

 

@ al Some good, clear info for me to work on there. The photos are a little deceptive in that the listening position is a bit over 2m from the rear brick wall, the half height walls sit a bit over half a meter in front of that. You are correct in that the speakers were probably further into the room than that. This was done based on some older advice and to provide some physical space with which to create the illusion of depth. The good result i achieved yesterday was with the speakers positioned closer to the rule of thirds. That will be the basis for today's experimentation -speakers and listening position closer to the front wall.

[Jone5y]

Just for interest sake in keeping (change room acoustics completely) with good audio from a stereo, consider black carpeting between ceiling truss. Hear what happens.

That wont most definitely fly with the other half but it's definitely on my radar once i get the positioning sorted. I'll just need to get creative with regards to colour and design to get it over the line

[LunchieTey]

A cheap and WAF friendly roof treatment on a ceiling like that is to use white acoustic tiles like you would find in a boardroom/office. They look more or less like textured plaster but have pretty reasonable HF absorption but little to no effect lower down. You could stick them on cut to size between the joists with very little visual impact in the room and it would be reversible if you didn't like them. If you've ever worked in an office area with carpet floors and a white acoustic ceiling, it's a VERY quiet place to work.

 

You can sometimes find excess from office re-furb projects for very little. The fact you have exposed beams like this actually makes installing acoustic tile much easier as you can have the tile fit between the beams stopping that 'office' like ceiling. It may actually be quite a nice looking feature in the room. Essentially it will look the same, with a texture and some horizontal seams.

 

The good thing about my SWMBO is that she understands music is my 'escape' or 'downtime' which is good for stress management etc and she has no issue with making compromises to keep me happy(as I do for her) I'm sure if you discussed room treatments and showed her a few 'designer' panels or treatments that are available and not just big dirty black speaker cloth covered slabs of fibreglass batts you may find an amicable solution.

 

You could cover the entire ceiling in that area with the white acoustic tile which would make the whole space quieter which is a good negotiation point for the other half. These tiles are often actually better absorbers that thick carpet too so even adjoining spaces will benefit(music will carry less OUT of your space too)

 

Even arrangements of odd shaped and contrasting coloured wall panels can be very attractive and ADD to the appeal of a room. You can even have photo prints like a canvas but actually an acoustic panel made by various online manufacturers(and maybe in aus but I don't know). Some very nice fabrics can be stretched over frames to become almost an artwork. You can even find patterned wall finishes/tiles which look very nice when used properly. Simply google 'designer acoustic panel' and look through the images. Nice stuff in there!

 

The biggest issue I see in the room is that big flat brick wall right behind your head but trying to find an agreeable treatment for the other half that is also heat resistant(fireplace) is the challenge. A diffuser style panel may be good here as you can make them odd shapes and can look quite stylish. An oddly stacked bookshelf arrangement(don't make books the same depth next to each other) may be a solution?

 

I wouldn't worry so much about the two further chambers as the reverberant level will be much lower from these rooms over distance compared to the closer brick walls. Your irregular rear surfaces by distance are probably much better than the average totally flat wall most of us have!

Edited February 22, 2015 by LunchieTey