Help me fix this room

[Jone5y]

Ok, a little progress has been made. I spent hours the other day repositioning speakers, playing with toe in, trialling seating positions and varying placement of all the mattresses/thick blankets i could get my hands on. While i say progress was made it was only in the sense that i was unable to make significant improvement over what the original speaker repositioning gave me a day earlier. So while it was quite frustrating not to get substantially better sound, I did at least rule out a lot of potential configurations. For those who are interested i was able to 'lift' the centre image by about 20 cms with a couple of blankets over the TV and a mattress placed in front of that. It was only evident on a few songs but I've taken it as evidence i could benefit from absorbtion on the front wall.

Given that my daughter prefers to sleep on her mattress than have it standing in the loungeroom I've been laying the groundwork for WAF friendly works. It is "Highly Likely" that the front wall will have new bookshelf made for under the existing wall mounted storage boxes - I'll make these perform some diffusion. There are also suggestions that a 'modernisation of the TV cabinet' is desired which should give more flexibility wrt speaker placement and "we need more art in here" should give me an opportunity to put in some discrete absorption panels as mentioned above.

The bad news is renos are starting from the top of the house and working down. That means i need to build a false wall in the bedroom, reconfigure its layout, freshen up a bathroom, resurface a kitchen and then recarpet before substantial work can begin in the lounge. Progress will be slow but the seeds have been sown.

[Guest myrantz]

Given that my daughter prefers to sleep on her mattress than have it standing in the loungeroom I've been laying the groundwork for WAF friendly works.

LOL.

 

I'll make these perform some diffusion.

Take some precaution about diffusing sound directly behind, directly beside or anyway near the speakers.

 

It may well work but IME that always leads to easy localisation of the speaker (i.e. you can identify sound is coming from the speaker itself). Once you can localise any of the speakers, the effect of "disappearing speakers" will no longer work.

If you can, mock up the furniture first and evaluate before making 'em permanent.

Perception of height wise - the front stage, directly to your left/right and above you, the sound should go all the way to the ceilings (IMO anyway). DSOTM (I think) should have some of those heights. The Pilgrim from the album Beyond Skin is another example (this is the track I often used to adjust my positioning). So play 'em, knowing how they should image and then slowly tweak your system to coax these audio cues out.

 

Once you find your speakers to completely disappear, start playing some mono tracks... The detail in terms of imaging with mono tracks can be astounding at times. All my monos were from SACD by Analogue Productions and also the Beatles mono (strangely not all tracks are mono). Not aware of any modern artist recording in mono yet, but I'm sure there must be some?

[Jone5y]

Take some precaution about diffusing sound directly behind, directly beside or anyway near the speakers.

 

It may well work but IME that always leads to easy localisation of the speaker (i.e. you can identify sound is coming from the speaker itself). Once you can localise any of the speakers, the effect of "disappearing speakers" will no longer work.

If you can, mock up the furniture first and evaluate before making 'em permanent.

 

Noted. The localisation of the speakers is precisely what I'm trying to avoid. I will experiment first.

 

Perception of height wise - the front stage, directly to your left/right and above you, the sound should go all the way to the ceilings (IMO anyway). DSOTM (I think) should have some of those heights. The Pilgrim from the album Beyond Skin is another example (this is the track I often used to adjust my positioning). So play 'em, knowing how they should image and then slowly tweak your system to coax these audio cues out.

Sound to the ceiling is exactly what i am chasing and have been since i first heard proper amplification driving my speakers. I did note a little height around the chimes in 'Time' but it was very localised to each speaker in the particular config i had at the time. I'm currently looking at Thursday/Friday to annoy the neighbours with some DSOTM repetition. If i can find Beyond Skin I'll add that to the mix too.

 

Will report back with what i discover

[betty boop]

if looking for test tracks on setup. the best I know of are the chesky discs e.g. the one below,

 

http://chesky.com/album/best-chesky-classics-jazz-audiophile-test-disc-vol-3-jd111

 

they give you an intro...and tell you what to look out for and realistically what to expect.

 

imaging wise a few of the tracks there are absolute beauties and give clear demonstration of what you system can achieve in either height and also in 3D holographic representation using the whole room. there is one where basically a dancing troupe enters one end of the room goes all the way around and then exits...pretty amazing if your system is well setup and working well imaging and sound stage wise...it works a treat otherwise will just give you a feel of where things are at

[Guest myrantz]

if looking for test tracks on setup. the best I know of are the chesky discs e.g. the one below,

 

http://chesky.com/album/best-chesky-classics-jazz-audiophile-test-disc-vol-3-jd111

 

they give you an intro...and tell you what to look out for and realistically what to expect.

 

imaging wise a few of theatrics there are absolute beauties and give clear demonstration of what you system can achieve in either height and also in 3D holographic representation using the whole room. there is one where basically a dancing troupe enters one end of the room goes all the way around and then exits...pretty amazing if your system is well setup and working well imaging and sound stage wise...it works a treat otherwise will just give you a feel of where things are at

That looks like a great disc, and added bonus as it's all on the same disc... Hopefully I can add that to my collection soon..

 

 

 

I'm currently looking at Thursday/Friday to annoy the neighbours with some DSOTM repetition. If i can find Beyond Skin I'll add that to the mix too.

 

Will report back with what i discover

There are various versions of DSTOM on CDs and SACDs. If your copy happens to be the 30th anniversary SACD edition, you may want to try invert the phase and see if the sound of the chimes become more cohesive... If your player can't invert the phase, you can do this by swapping the + and - of your speaker wires (obviously do this at your own risk, and definitely do this with everything powered off)...

[davewantsmoore]

I like your room

 

1. Where would you start in terms of treatment or otherwise to give some depth/height to my music?

 

I would not.

 

Aside from bass (and bass treatments are enormous and inefficient), room "treatment" is oversold as a sound solution IMHO.

 

That aside....  any talk of room treatment without looking at measurements of what is actually happening in your room  (ie.  identifying a specific problem to address)  are not sensible.

 

 

 

Definitely pursue suggestions / and tinkering around speaker and listener placement.

 

(It could be the pictures perspective, but)  you don't seem to be sitting against the back wall (which is a big plus).    Gut feel is that you definitely wouldn't want the speaker further apart, or further out in the room.   Try going the other way (as suggested).

 

 

long skinny room i heard them

 

Yes, the direct to reflected ratio of sound in the room is a big factor.   You have a big-ish room.

Edited February 24, 2015 by davewantsmoore

[Jone5y]

if looking for test tracks on setup. the best I know of are the chesky discs e.g. the one below,

 

http://chesky.com/album/best-chesky-classics-jazz-audiophile-test-disc-vol-3-jd111

Found, ordered. And to think I thought it was going to cost me an arm and a leg to get some decent test material. Luckily i grabbed it quickly or i may have missed a tremendous bargain!! http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Best-Of-Chesky-Classics-Jazz-Audiophile-Test-Disc-Vol-3-/151427187494?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2341c38326

[Guest myrantz]

Found, ordered. And to think I thought it was going to cost me an arm and a leg to get some decent test material. Luckily i grabbed it quickly or i may have missed a tremendous bargain!! http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Best-Of-Chesky-Classics-Jazz-Audiophile-Test-Disc-Vol-3-/151427187494?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2341c38326

Farrrrk.. Didn't know it's that expensive...  :o  :o  :o

[Jone5y]

I like your room

Cheers, It's got potential and the size is a plus.

 

I would not.

 

Aside from bass (and bass treatments are enormous and inefficient), room "treatment" is oversold as a sound solution IMHO.

 

That aside....  any talk of room treatment without looking at measurements of what is actually happening in your room  (ie.  identifying a specific problem to address)  are not sensible.

Noted. Measurement mic is on the wishlist as suggested earlier but (as was also suggested) there's little point with attempting anything much until the positioning is sorted.

 

Yes, the direct to reflected ratio of sound in the room is a big factor.   You have a big-ish room.

Can you elaborate on this a little further for me please Dave. My (probably incorrect) understanding was that a higher ratio of direct sound would lead to the bigger soundstage I'm after. That more reflected sound would smear the details/imaging/soundstage out. My limited experience and what i take from the above statement is that isn't the case, that a larger room would be acting more like an outdoor space with no reflections and provide less of '3D' effect. Is that right?

[Jone5y]

Quick question: how much of an impact does the orientation of the ceiling slope have on on all matters sound quality? I ask as I'm soon going to be needing to pull my system apart for the return of my Naksa amp following Cafad's review. Was wondering if it'd be worth carting the speakers up to another room which is oriented in reverse to the main lounge (ceiling slopes down from front to back). It's a much smaller room (probably 5Lx3w) half open to the back, brick wall on one side and book case to the other. Worth the trouble or give it a miss?

[davewantsmoore]

Noted. Measurement mic is on the wishlist as suggested earlier but (as was also suggested) there's little point with attempting anything much until the positioning is sorted.

 

Measurements in the room, will begin to give you an idea of the problems which you (may) have with the room acoustics.... irregardless of the optimum speaker/listener placement.     Measurement can also help you identify what could be wrong with the current speaker placement, and help you find a better one.

 

 

Can you elaborate on this a little further for me please Dave. My (probably incorrect) understanding was that a higher ratio of direct sound would lead to the bigger soundstage I'm after. That more reflected sound would smear the details/imaging/soundstage out. My limited experience and what i take from the above statement is that isn't the case, that a larger room would be acting more like an outdoor space with no reflections and provide less of '3D' effect. Is that right?

 

Yes.     I'm having trouble linking to a simple explanation.... my google-fu is weak tonight.

 

 

The direct to reflected balance of sound,  relates to things like the difference which you hear in each ear.... which dictates the apparent source width, and the perceived listener envelopment.

 

Reflected sound only acutely harms the fidelity when it the reflection reaches you very soon after the direct sound ..... when the reflected sound has a different spectral balance to the driect sound (eg. tilted towards the bass or treble or otherwise distorted) ..... or when the reflected sound is very late  (echo, echo... echo).

 

 

 

I wouldn't try to over complicate it though.    I think you've alreadyd move the speakers close together!? ... try sitting a little closer also, try a little less toe in.

 

How loud do you listen?    does more volume help?

[davewantsmoore]

(ceiling slopes down from front to back). It's a much smaller room (probably 5Lx3w) half open to the back, brick wall on one side and book case to the other. Worth the trouble or give it a miss?

 

Worth a try.... nothing about this sounds bad.

 

 

How high is the ceiling?   (non-parallel surfaces are good)

 

5m long and open to the back is good.    You don't want to sit against a wall .... so assuming you won't directly against the back wall, and it is also partially open at the back..... it is sounding quite good.

 

If you can muster the effort, it would be worth it just to gain some perspective over what you have now.

[Jone5y]

Ceiling is easily just under 5m at the front down to 3.5ish at the rear. I'll give it a crack tomorrow when I'll hopefully have more time to play around (and perhaps more importantly, put everything back in it's place before the rest of the family gets home)

 

The direct to reflected balance of sound,  relates to things like the difference which you hear in each ear.... which dictates the apparent source width, and the perceived listener envelopment.

 

Reflected sound only acutely harms the fidelity when it the reflection reaches you very soon after the direct sound ..... when the reflected sound has a different spectral balance to the driect sound (eg. tilted towards the bass or treble or otherwise distorted) ..... or when the reflected sound is very late  (echo, echo... echo).

Right, I get it now. Essentially what I'm after is a little, but not too much, of the right type of reflected sound.

[svenr]

What you describe is a lack of listener envelopment and apparent stage width.  The first one is the result of an insufficiently diffuse sound field, the second one due to a lack of lateral sound energy (i.e. strong lateral reflections).  I suggest the following experiment:  Make two free standing baffles of 19mm particleboard, each about 1.6m by 1.2m.  Surface finish with something that gives a nice flat surface (floor gloss paint or something).  Place these two boards left and right to create strong lateral early reflections from about +/- 60deg from the central axis to the listener spot.  Avoid any toe in at the beginning to maximise the high frequency content in the artificial reflections.  See what this does for you.

 

The problem with your room is the large distance to the side walls and the non-symmetric build of these walls.  That ruins any good lateral reflection which you need to get a good spatial impression.  Floyd Toole talks about this in "Sound Reproduction", and any good textbook on concert hall acoustics talks greatly about the importance of lateral reflections on spatial impression. 

[Jone5y]

Thanks @@svenr Some more fiddling with positioning has given me a width that i am happy with but yes, i am definitely missing envelopment because of the lacking depth and height. I should be able to cobble together the baffles you suggest when time permits and report back.

For those who were wondering, I did move the system to a smaller, narrower room for some listening. The main result was an immediate lift in height to the top of the speakers and an acute awareness of the difference the height I listened from made in the new setting. A change in my head position up or down by even a small amount changes the frequencies balance markedly.

Thinking further on the suggestions made previously I am considering uprooting the system again and moving it to a room with a lower, flat ceiling. This would be in an effort to achieve some sound stage height created by the more uniform reflections from above. Seems to follow the same logic as getting some reinforcement from side/front wall for width and depth but I'm happy to be corrected

[megamond]

What you describe is a lack of listener envelopment and apparent stage width.  The first one is the result of an insufficiently diffuse sound field, the second one due to a lack of lateral sound energy (i.e. strong lateral reflections).  I suggest the following experiment:  

 

Or, if you have some bookcases, position them likewise to note the effects.

[amdan]

Svenr - this is no doubt a silly question - what do you mean by lateral reflections. Do you mean the reflection of the two side walls? Also I didn't understand where you suggest the baffles should go.

[amdan]

Svenr - what do you mean by lateral reflections - are they the reflections off the side walls?

[Jone5y]

Yes, lateral reflections = side walls. The suggestion was to place what would effectively be false walls beside the speakers to create, and experiment with, these reflections and their effects.

[amdan]

Thanks Jone5. Should the baffles be placed directly beside the speakers or a little forward or backward?

[Jone5y]

A little in front is my understanding. Positioned in such a way that the sound waves bounce off them to the listening position. Too close to the speakers and there'll be too much reflected sound, too far or incorrectly positioned and their effect may not be noticed or worse, detrimental.

[svenr]

As for placement of these baffles - you can only go as far side ways as your room allows.  More importantly here is the direction from which these artificial reflections arrive.  +/- 60deg from the centre line is a good starting point (check the graphic of spatial influence given in Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction, or the references he cites).  This means, the baffles must be placed and tilted such that they reflect sound in a way to get the angle of the first reflections right.  A simple CAD sketch allows finding this location easily.

 

One thing to note is that toe-in must be minimised as much as possible - otherwise the artificial reflections will not comprise enough high frequency content and the envelopment will appear dull.  Thus the suggestion to have a hard reflective surface such as glossy paint or glass on the baffles.

Edited April 13, 2015 by svenr

[Telecine]

A question for you:

What are you using for a preamp or volume control?

[Jone5y]

Volume control is performed through the Naksa. It has been modded by Decky to have multiple inputs and digital volume adjustment. Its the one Cafad recently reviewed. Whyzat?

[Telecine]

Volume control is performed through the Naksa. It has been modded by Decky to have multiple inputs and digital volume adjustment. Its the one Cafad recently reviewed. Whyzat?

Have you tried an active preamp in your system?