The Great Debate Sub-forum Has Been Retired

[NonPlayableCharacter]

 

9 minutes ago, POV said:

Yet I’m struggling with what feels like a decisive move to ostracise members of that community.  We are a community that should support each other: so long as the members post what we want them to post, in the way that we want them to post it.

 

Drew, I understand the reticence that comes with leaning into change, but I would not want to remain part of this Volunteer team if your assessment came to fruition.

 

I'll just quote what I said earlier:

 

22 hours ago, El Tel said:

I would like to add to that in the slightly expanded view no party is going to be a protected species despite what others might read into this announcement.

 

This change is purely to stop what another forum refers to as "axe-grinding": the following round and habitual harassment of members after the fact. I don't want to add to the preexisting factionalism, but let's address the elephant in the room: in it's purest form we are referring to subjectivism and objectivism, and the following statement applies equally and without favour.

 

"Make your points, don't make them personal, accept other people have different ways of enjoying this pursuit. Then move on."

 

If folk from either side don't move on and they persist in what amounts to bullying, then we are outside the guidelines. Then we all know what happens.

 

By dispersing TGD and relocating contentious threads back to whence they came, the anger and confrontation dissipate. In relative terms, there is a majority of subject matter and topics that are harmonious on SNA. Content in TGD focused angst and frustration and made the whole thing look like a cesspool of hate. That will not do. Sure, threads will still get locked, throttled etc Posts may be hidden. Sanctions may be levied. But we are attempting to change what was not working and to get us all to a nicer place.

 

People enjoy this pursuit in different ways. We can't be too dogmatic about what works for us must be where others follow. If someone decides tomato ketchup and a can of Coke is a necessity with their 9 score wagyu striploin, I may not agree, but I will enjoy mine with homemade horseradish and a 2006 Henschke Hill of Grace and move on.

 

I promise you that if you, and others with your fears, submit posts that are factual, reasonable, courteous, non-confrontational and tolerant, then I will go into bat for you. My last couple of months have shown me that the other Volunteers believe in this too. They are a bloody decent bunch with no agenda other than to uphold the peace and not allow anyone to feel that they should not participate. We can do better and we want to do better. Together.

[Assisi]

7 hours ago, March Audio said:

If someone is so sensitive that they can't cope with others engaging with their statements, then perhaps they should consider if it's an appropriate activity for them.

In your first post in this thread, you said:

 

“That means there will be disagreement. So long as its respectfully done it should not be a problem for anyone.”

 

I agree and I would expect everyone else wants things to be done respectfully.  I assume that is the underlying intent of the soon to be released guidelines.

 

I then think that you possibly contradict yourself with the quote above.  It is the extent and the wording of any engagement that is critical. 

 

To paraphrase, to me you are now seeming to suggest that

“If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen”

 

If things are done respectfully as you initially said, then there will be no issues with the responses and perceptions of all posters regardless of their possible degree of sensitivity.  Life will then be fine and everyone can participate harmoniously.

 

John

[Guest]

 

There are a few who have taken the freedom to express views as their right to disrupt. It has happened across many threads over years (not one off nor isolated). Those who object to these disruptions are then labelled as over sensitive.

 

Taking action to remove the right to  disrupt has long been overdue. The entire community will be better for it.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Snoopy8 said:

 

There are a few who have taken the freedom to express views as their right to disrupt. It has happened across many threads over years (not one off nor isolated). Those who object to these disruptions are then labelled as over sensitive.

 

Taking action to remove the right to  disrupt has long been overdue. The entire community will be better for it.

 

And this formed the basis for our revisit of the Website Guidelines, and partially the retirement of TGD.

It's all really simple - be nice, be respectful, be courteous. If not, the member will be pulled up for it.

If it continues, the member will be removed from the community - temporarily at first, and permanently if they continue.

[Guest]

@March Audio - Enough! I'm not approving any more of your posts in this thread, especially your last one. The new guidelines, while not technically released yet, talk about circular arguments and that is exactly what you are doing and continue to do. Move on. If it's politics that really interests you, this is not the forum or community for that. 

[rantan]

9 hours ago, March Audio said:

Bottom line is this forum is a public space.  If someone is so sensitive that they can't cope with others engaging with their statements, then perhaps they should consider if it's an appropriate activity for them.

 

Actually, it absolutely is not.

 

As @sir sanders zingmore says this place is a community.

 

 This community is only open to members who have joined, to discuss and celebrate a  common, ongoing and evolving interest  of a shared passion and other life experiences as well.

It is almost as far as it gets, away from being a public space where the law-of-the-jungle prevails.

 

If any particular person wishes to participate, they must be willing and agreeable to abide by common sense and inclusive rules of engagement but if they find that unacceptable, where there are indeed, public spaces in which they are able to participate unfettered.

 

I am really unsure why  their is such a clear level of angst pertaining to what are essentially common sense rules governing civilised and decent behaviour.

 

[MattyW]

You make a good point @rantan. I had missed the subtle (but nonetheless important) difference between community and public space. Good catch.  

[Keith_W]

A bit of history of TGD subforum for those of you who don't know. Many years ago there was an individual who was turning every thread into a DBT debate. TGD was created to quarantine all the boring DBT debates into one easily ignored subforum. The intention was to keep every other thread on topic and not turn the whole forum into a mud slinging festival. It was my idea to create TGD, and for a while it worked as intended. 

 

SNA is the only Australian hi-fi forum of any importance, I can think of others but they have either dissolved, or part of a larger forum serving other purposes, or too small to be of any consequence. It is the ONLY place where you can go to meet other Aussies in the same hobby. Other international forums have split into camps - there are objectivist forums like HydrogenAudio and ASR, there are subjectivist forums like Whats Best and Steve Hoffman. That's fine because those communities are large enough to support such forums. Here on SNA, we are all lumped together - objectivists and subjectivists, all with the purpose of creating an Aussie hi-fi community. It is a small community, and unlike the others, SNA's focus is on Australia (well, expanded internationally now but the many of us hang around for the "local" aspect). 

 

If you look at the moderation policies of those forums you will find a few interesting things. For example, Steve Hoffman outright bans any mention of DBT's. Discussion of MQA is somehow banned on ASR (the owner, strangely, is in favour of MQA!). You can not post any claim on Hydrogen Audio without proving it first with a DBT. Any purely subjectivist threads on ASR get automatically closed (try starting a thread on which cable sounds better over there). 

 

SNA is not like that. SNA allows any post, any thread, any discussion from audio tweaks up to cutting edge tech. SNA has members who span the full range of the audiophile spectrum, and we all have to live together. The Aussie hi-fi community is too small to be torn apart by stupid debates which have been rehashed literally thousands of times both here and internationally, and for old timers like me on USENet newsgroups like rec.audio and aus.hi-fi. 

 

The subjectivist vs. objectivist debate isn't going to go away. It will have to be managed. Grouping themselves into entire forums dedicated to objectivists and subjectivists is how other communities manage it (not feasible on SNA obviously, given our "local" focus). TGD was one way of managing it. There are other ways of managing it - for example, stronger moderation policies and bans for certain members. 

 

It is best if members remind themselves why they are here. I am not here to debate audio with anyone. You have your beliefs, I have mine. If I want to discuss something of a more technical nature, there are better forums for that. I am here for the local focus, and I think of everyone on SNA as a neighbour. 

[POV]

1 hour ago, rantan said:

I am really unsure why  their is such a clear level of angst pertaining to what are essentially common sense rules governing civilised and decent behaviour.

 

 

Just to clarify, if you are referring to me, I don't have any angst regarding civilised and decent behaviour at all provided it is consistent in application and I'll hope that civilised and decent will extend to folks not seeking to weaponise the new rules/vibe to marginalise or gang up on people that think differently to them.   

 

Personally I already felt quite marginalised at times and like I was being categorised into a team in what I view as totally bizarre subjective vs objective factionalism (and I don't want to be associated with either side!)  I just want to enjoy my music and discuss the parts of the hobby that I find fun (including both subjective and objective evaluation of gear, and at times underlying theory) in a safe way without being told I am doing it wrong, ruining the forum, ruining the hobby (that was a particular highlight) from folks that seem (to me) determined to direct traffic.  

 

I'll leave it at that and wait to see what the new guidlines say and see what happens.  Ultimately it may well be that this forum is not the place for me and if so then I can live with that...  

 

 

[rantan]

3 minutes ago, POV said:

 

Just to clarify, if you are referring to me,

 

Actually, I was not referring to you at all and FWIW I enjoy many of your posts and I hope you stay around.

[playdough]

I'll miss it a little. There was some good information, the general banter, the fur flying . Like a Mills and Boon Classic.

 

 

[MattyW]

9 minutes ago, playdough said:

I'll miss it a little. There was some good information, the general banter, the fur flying . Like a Mills and Boon Classic.

 

 

Gone the way of Old Yeller.

Edited October 5, 2023 by MattyW

[Cloth Ears]

6 hours ago, El Tel said:

People enjoy this pursuit in different ways. We can't be too dogmatic about what works for us must be where others follow. If someone decides tomato ketchup and a can of Coke is a necessity with their 9 score wagyu striploin, I may not agree, but I will enjoy mine with homemade horseradish and a 2006 Henschke Hill of Grace and move on.

Similarly, I sell whisky at a couple of markets each month for a local distillery. Whereas I might inwardly cringe at the thought of even the cheapest one being mixed with Coke or otherwise used in a cocktail, that's exactly what the distillers do on occasion (cocktails, not the coke). I will, however, point out that some of them taste really good without any additions (ice, water, etc.) and attempt to show them the same.

However, as this is done face to face, it's naturally done more politely than similar conversation might evolve on an online whisky forum...

[playdough]

@MattyW Always a good start to the SNA Forum session, straight to the drama section, catch up on the DB Speaker Cable Testing,  CD"s Vrs Records, A Class Vrs D Class etc, etc.

Never posted, was frightened of getting warned/banned the great big red Banner, "Mods will need to check the post, first."   

Alas all gone.

[NonPlayableCharacter]

Just now, Cloth Ears said:

Similarly, I sell whisky at a couple of markets each month for a local distillery. Whereas I might inwardly cringe at the thought of even the cheapest one being mixed with Coke or otherwise used in a cocktail, that's exactly what the distillers do on occasion (cocktails, not the coke). I will, however, point out that some of them taste really good without any additions (ice, water, etc.) and attempt to show them the same.

However, as this is done face to face, it's naturally done more politely than similar conversation might evolve on an online whisky forum...

Jesus... I can imagine the inner turmoil you must go through.

 

But... vive la difference.

 

When I mentioned the steak earlier and that I would pair it with a big red, I was nursing a minor hangover and to be fair, a steak and a can of Coke actually sounded like it would be life-saving at that precise moment....

[rantan]

1 minute ago, playdough said:

Alas all gone.

 

Apologies for this, but I won't miss any of that schitt, but I promise to take another look at the idea in 99years.

[playdough]

6 minutes ago, rantan said:

won't miss any of that schitt

Some of it was, utterly.

[aussievintage]

 

Aw, it wasn't all bad.     I actually believe some good stuff was discussed, and maybe some people may have benefitted.   I guess the signal to noise ratio was pretty bad at times though.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Aw, it wasn't all bad.     I actually believe some good stuff was discussed, and maybe some people may have benefitted. 

The good stuff happened before threads were disrupted and went into that sub forum to die...

Edited October 5, 2023 by Snoopy8
Typo

[rantan]

10 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I actually believe some good stuff was discussed,

 

Indeed, but nobody from the opposing camp ever changed their opinion.

Edited October 5, 2023 by rantan

[POV]

2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The good stuff happened before threads were disrupted and went into that sub forum to die...

I don’t personally agree with this.  There was some really informed, intelligent discussion in some of those threads that I found both interesting and educational, and many of them were the most visited and most contributed to on the forum.  Yeah there was some personal disputes from time to time but they seem to bother me less than others. 

[POV]

30 minutes ago, Cloth Ears said:

Similarly, I sell whisky at a couple of markets each month for a local distillery. Whereas I might inwardly cringe at the thought of even the cheapest one being mixed with Coke or otherwise used in a cocktail, that's exactly what the distillers do on occasion (cocktails, not the coke). I will, however, point out that some of them taste really good without any additions (ice, water, etc.) and attempt to show them the same.

However, as this is done face to face, it's naturally done more politely than similar conversation might evolve on an online whisky forum...

I love a good whisky sour made by a skilled mixologist (which sadly I am not) and contrary to what is said as a general rule I do believe better whisky equals better whisky sour! I’m pretty certain this is off-topic.  

[davewantsmoore]

47 minutes ago, rantan said:

Indeed, but nobody from the opposing camp ever changed their opinion.

I put it to you that plenty of people changed their opinion (perhaps not the ones posting) ... and few people are really in "camps".

 

To me.... it's this sort of thing.... that is most of the reason why quarantine was needed/useful.    The "all you people" ... and the "you can say that but nobody will ever change their mind".... etcetera, etcetera..... too much caring about what other people say, and/or trying to moderate what others say, or who's feelings they're hurting by giving a (sometimes very) contrary viewpoint.    Inane.  Boring.  Divisive.

 

That being said, I'm not advocating for being unkind, or hurting intentionally anyones feelings, or any of that.   The new guidelines sound like they have the right "spirit".

Edited October 5, 2023 by davewantsmoore

[aussievintage]

49 minutes ago, rantan said:

Indeed, but nobody from the opposing camp ever changed their opinion.

 

 

That is not a requirement of a discussion being useful.

 

Besides, you can't really know how many, reading the thread, might have discovered something they didn't know, or maybe saw things from a different point of view.

 

Anyway, it's gone now.   Will it make the mods job easier? - not sure, but hope so.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Will it make the mods job easier? - not sure, but hope so.

 

Actually, this decision was never driven by making our job easier.

 

It was about recognising where things were headed and attempting to steer the ship in the right direction. Like I have had to do a number of times since 2003. I'm fortunate to have a great team supporting me and together we are genuinely passionate about the StereoNET community and continuing to watch it prosper.

 

It wasn't about removing members that were perhaps troublesome. It was about creating guidelines that remind members what we expect, and what they can expect. Ultimately, the guidelines are not really that much different; more simplified and clearer. If it's no longer fun for you, we'll ask you to move on. If you're making it no longer fun for others, we'll ask you to move on. It's about respect, courtesy, and being civil, and having the tools and facilities in place to better respond to informative discussions that shows signs of heading south. And lastly, we want to avoid closing down threads as much as possible, and letting them remain in their appropriate and respective sub-forums, where they should be.

 

I'm also pleased in the level of interest in this topic. It shows others care as much as we do. That's our future right there.