A Search for Truth and Tonality

[Batty]

Sanity... Hmm lol

 

[rantan]

2 minutes ago, Batty said:

Sanity... Hmm lol

 

 

My stocks of which tend to diminish when I see pictures such as those supplied and the accompanying narrative.

[fas42]

28 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

Mass-loading does intuitively make some sense to me for bookshelves at least (especially if the cabinet isnt especially well braced), though I've never tried it, so good to hear feedback on that

 

My wife would execute me on the spot if I piled up newspapers in our lounge, but that's unrelated.

 

Yes, what you're trying to do is replicate the advantages that extremely heavy, inert speakers provide - which of course costs you, the consumer, a bomb. Started out as a thought for the B&W DM10 speakers I was using at the time - and the more I used, the better things got. You get very tight, very intense bass lines in the playback; exactly what people are after in the Big Boys.

 

Bev gets a huge buzz from the good sound, so will put up with the mess - her exact words, "This is bullshit!!", after one particularly impressive rendition of some piece, in the early days ...

Edited August 17, 2023 by fas42

[fas42]

Sanity is overrated ...

[tripitaka]

Not one of the more impressive 'showcase' threads, but nobody can fault your enthusiasm, thanks for sharing

[fas42]

Mentioning other showcase threads, I looked at the list, and found @Ittaku's one - I guess this is the type of thing you're referring to.

 

A bit of history here: I got jack of high end in the late 90's, because I didn't have enough answers, on how to tweak all the faults out of a rig - anything else than optimum SQ was too much of a compromise; so one answer is to walk away from it - which I did. And then, there was the ultra high end show in Sydney, which I visited.  And heard the MBLs being driven properly, by MBL amps, which is perhaps what this post pointed to,

 

Ah-hah!! Good sound, in a stock standard setup ... finally!!! Inspired me to get back into the riding saddle - and here I am, still ...

 

These are the attributes that I'm after, from Keith's post,

 

Quote

MBL sound is so relaxing, and I wonder whether it is because you are freed from having to sit in one position to enjoy music.

 

and

 

Quote

MBL's disappear into the room. From the listening position, there are no speakers. Just an enormous soundstage that seems bigger than the room. The tonality, precision, detail, were outstanding.

 

Yes. That's what it's about ...

[tripitaka]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

Mentioning other showcase threads, I looked at the list, and found @Ittaku's one - I guess this is the type of thing you're referring to.

 

A bit of history here: I got jack of high end in the late 90's, because I didn't have enough answers, on how to tweak all the faults out of a rig - anything else than optimum SQ was too much of a compromise; so one answer is to walk away from it - which I did. And then, there was the ultra high end show in Sydney, which I visited.  And heard the MBLs being driven properly, by MBL amps, which is perhaps what this post pointed to,

 

Ah-hah!! Good sound, in a stock standard setup ... finally!!! Inspired me to get back into the riding saddle - and here I am, still ...

 

These are the attributes that I'm after, from Keith's post,

 

 

and

 

 

Yes. That's what it's about ...

 

I know @Ittaku 's system well, it is the benchmark to which I myself cannot aspire but am always grateful to have heard. Someone (maybe it was you, actually) asked me why I never speak highly of my own (let's say $40-50k retail) system and the answer is quite simple: I have  heard systems like Ittaku's

 

[fas42]

14 hours ago, tripitaka said:

 

I know @Ittaku 's system well, it is the benchmark to which I myself cannot aspire but am always grateful to have heard. Someone (maybe it was you, actually) asked me why I never speak highly of my own (let's say $40-50k retail) system and the answer is quite simple: I have  heard systems like Ittaku's

 

 

Well, the very good news is, that the presentation of that rig is nothing unique to the technology used. Why it does so well is that the engineering of the parts is "good enough"; using the same ideas without the rigour in the implementation that such a setup employs, will not give similar results. This was demonstrated in an audio show many years ago, where I heard an all MBL system, from a lower tier range; this had nothing special about the sound, it was just, OK.

 

It may surprise many to hear that very ordinary speakers can throw up the very same type of  'illusion' as a top notch MBL combo - I heard this from my own speakers nearly 40 years ago, and of course it bowled me over. Unfortunately, all the stars have to align to make this happen - the right combo of gear, which will be exceedingly costly, can do it, as in Ittaku's rig; a viable alternative is to tweak, evolve, a chain of decent quality components to the necessary standard - which is the journey I've been on, for decades ...

[tripitaka]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Well, the very good news is, that the presentation of that rig is nothing unique to the technology used. Why it does so well is that the engineering of the parts is "good enough"; using the same ideas without the rigour in the implementation that such a setup employs, will not give similar results. This was demonstrated in an audio show many years ago, where I heard an all MBL system, from a lower tier range; this had nothing special about the sound, it was just, OK.

 

It may surprise many to hear that very ordinary speakers can throw up the very same type of  'illusion' as a top notch MBL combo - I heard this from my own speakers nearly 40 years ago, and of course it bowled me over. Unfortunately, all the stars have to align to make this happen - the right combo of gear, which will be exceedingly costly, can do it, as in Ittaku's rig; a viable alternative is to tweak, evolve, a chain of decent quality components to the necessary standard - which is the journey I've been on, for decades ...

To be brutally honest, I doubt many readers are likely to view you as an authority on the matter. Including me, I'm sorry to say.

[fas42]

Who's an 'authority' is irrelevant ... what matters is that understanding is in the room - and it's taken me years to get a handle on what goes on, with audio reproduction ...

 

The human ear/brain is very sensitive to anomalies in the sound it hears, and if the key criteria are not met, then the SQ will be a fail. Irrespective of the cost, or prestige of the components.  The only solution is to either buy equipment built well enough, or correct the flaws after acquisition - it's up to the consumer to decide the path ...

 

I've heard too much expensive gear riddled with very audible problems to take the normal approach to getting good sound seriously - being a troubleshooter, treating the exercise as a faultfinding mission, is a very cost effective solution to getting the best from recordings - hence, the use of the word "Search" in the title of this thread.

[Steff]

34 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

I doubt many readers are likely to view you as an authority on the matter

 

@fas42 Just supply anyone you wish to advise on stereo matters with that picture of your set up. It speaks louder than your many posts and protestations.

May your search for truth & tonality prove a fruitful one.

[fas42]

Which is why the pic is such a half-hearted one ... I only took that because a crowd on another forum were haranguing me about "picture evidence!" about what I had - the reality is that everything is far more messy than that hints at; the less shown, the better ...

 

What some people may be missing is that I have zero interest in show-off pieces; all of my systems have always been Works In Progress, and have looked exactly like such - the previous NAD gear was sitting on an unused bed; because that happened to be convenient. What I'm after is answers ... the bling factor is way down the road, when the Round Tuit turns up, .

 

So, if it looks Wow!! ... and sounds Crap, ... it gets turfed into the rubbish bin - so to speak. That's the angle I have always come from - those who prefer more conventional thinking can move on ...

[Steff]

Given that you often and verbosely argue from a disestablishmentarian stance it is only fair that you present in picture evidence what your search has yielded up to this point. Given how confident and satisfied you are with the SQ result. So, thanks for doing that and happy listening.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Steff said:

Given that you often and verbosely argue from a disestablishmentarian stance it is only fair that you present in picture evidence what your search has yielded up to this point. Given how confident and satisfied you are with the SQ result. So, thanks for doing that and happy listening.

 

If you care to look elsewhere, I explain that this rig's primary issue is sensitivity to electrical noise. Which I have dealt with 'prototype' style filtering and stabilisation methods - they look a mess, and would mean nothing to an observer, because they have been iteratively added, until I've been satisfied. They have zero bearing on what a "house proud" audio person would use, and would need to be converted into an aesthetically acceptable form, to have wider use.

 

The speakers themselves have had, so far, only a single internal tweak - turned out that the mains on/off switch on the right speaker back was a weakness, and so has been bypassed.

 

As mentioned in another post on this forum, the jitter level of the DVD optical has too much impact, and so I am right now developing, from scratch, a very low cost dejittering buffer, which will also, at some point, allow for multiple digital source inputs.

 

A measure for how good it sounds at the moment are the Dutch&Dutch 8C speakers, as demo'ed at the recent Sydney show. The latter didn't put a foot wrong while I was listening - the value of this offering is of course that it had no obvious tweaking to help it achieve that standard - so, money can buy "good enough" engineering, right now ...

[fas42]

To get an idea of what value for money gear can deliver, consider this CD,

 

 

This was a $1 item from an op shop , some months ago - and just played it, to warm up the rig. All the heft, grandeur, of this is realised on the Edifiers; huge soundstage stretching back, allowing you to pinpoint all the sections of the orchestra, acoustic nicely presented ... there is no need to go to the Opera House to listen to this played live, when the same sense of richness, weight and depth is available on a home system ...

Edited August 20, 2023 by fas42

[Pops110]

 

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

To get an idea of what value for money gear can deliver, consider this CD,

 

 

This was a $1 item from an op shop , some months ago - and just played it, to warm up the rig. All the heft, grandeur, of this is realised on the Edifiers; huge soundstage stretching back, allowing you to pinpoint all the sections of the orchestra, acoustic nicely presented ... there is no need to go to the Opera House to listen to this played live, when the same sense of richness, weight and depth is available on a home system ...

No disrespect intended but I’m struggling to understand how you can get any depth to your soundstage based on the picture of your system. The speakers are on a cabinet up against a wall with a telly in between them.

 

I would think if they sound as good as you say spending a little time on placement away from telly and to set them up on some decent stands would be worthwhile and some big improvements could be had. 

[RichardMak]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

To get an idea of what value for money gear can deliver, consider this CD,

 

 

This was a $1 item from an op shop , some months ago - and just played it, to warm up the rig. All the heft, grandeur, of this is realised on the Edifiers; huge soundstage stretching back, allowing you to pinpoint all the sections of the orchestra, acoustic nicely presented ... there is no need to go to the Opera House to listen to this played live, when the same sense of richness, weight and depth is available on a home system ...

 

 I visit this thread whenever I need to contemplate nonsense.

 

 

[fas42]

17 hours ago, Pops110 said:

 

No disrespect intended but I’m struggling to understand how you can get any depth to your soundstage based on the picture of your system. The speakers are on a cabinet up against a wall with a telly in between them.

 

Where the speakers are doesn't matter ... that's probably the key marker of competent playback: the soundstage is created by what your ears hear coming from the speakers; the room situation is irrelevant. Of course, if the replay is not good enough, then what I've just said doesn't apply - and then one has to play the fiddling with room and speakers game.

 

17 hours ago, Pops110 said:

 

I would think if they sound as good as you say spending a little time on placement away from telly and to set them up on some decent stands would be worthwhile and some big improvements could be had. 

 

The phrase "a window onto the captured event" describes what the illusion is like ... the room beyond the speakers is chopped off, and is replaced by the acoustic and soundstage of the music; you are on one side of a window, and the musicians, etc, are on the other.

 

Those who consider what I'm saying is nonsense make themselves known as people who have never experienced a rig working this well - you can't describe what a colour TV gives one, if they only see a black and white world.

Edited August 20, 2023 by fas42

[fas42]

Bumped into a mention, here, of speakers I once played with, exactly as per this thread,

 

Not the cabinets, but the drivers I purchased new, from an audio shop, back then. Made up my own cabinets per plans for the specific units; which had interesting extra side panels in the construction. What was bizarre, is that I made it in a knock down style - the whole carcass could be deconstructed, for tight storage requirements. Very 'comfortable' sound - the drivers were passed on, eventually ...

[frednork]

Glad you are happy with your setup. I am of the opinion that if your system sounds good to you and it brings you enjoyment it matters not what others think of it and you should not submit to what others think your system "should" sound like. 

 

You may have gathered that there is some doubt regarding your claims of your systems extraordinary quality and the fact that you are sure of its superiority to most /(all?) others.  If it is as good as you say am sure there would be plenty willing to support your claims that have heard your setup just as happens with other good sounding setups on this forum. Perhaps ask some to back up your assertions if you are wanting others to take you more seriously. Alternatively , you could point to other systems you have heard that rival or better yours to provide a different benchmark.

 

At the moment you are a sample size of 1 with views that are difficult to take seriously without further substantiation..

[fas42]

1 hour ago, frednork said:

Glad you are happy with your setup. I am of the opinion that if your system sounds good to you and it brings you enjoyment it matters not what others think of it and you should not submit to what others think your system "should" sound like. 

 

You may have gathered that there is some doubt regarding your claims of your systems extraordinary quality and the fact that you are sure of its superiority to most /(all?) others.  If it is as good as you say am sure there would be plenty willing to support your claims that have heard your setup just as happens with other good sounding setups on this forum. Perhaps ask some to back up your assertions if you are wanting others to take you more seriously. Alternatively , you could point to other systems you have heard that rival or better yours to provide a different benchmark.

 

At the moment you are a sample size of 1 with views that are difficult to take seriously without further substantiation..

 

Most in audio live in the world of "Who's got the fastest car?!!" Ummm, it doesn't work like that - with recordings you are trying to be truthful to what was captured - a clean window is a clean window, whether it cost a staggering amount because of the very fancy frame, or it's a cheap pane of glass bought down the road.

 

The "extraordinary quality" is simply what's on the recording - accuracy to that is all that's necessary; a grandiose rig shouldn't embellish a recording, to make it "better than it actually is"

 

I've already mentioned recent exposure to the D&D 8C speakers, as evidence that it's now possible to purchase more accurate setups ... what people are unhappy with, is the concept that you don't have to spend big bucks to get this ... yes?

Edited August 21, 2023 by fas42

[frednork]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Most in audio live in the world of "Who's got the fastest car?!!" Ummm, it doesn't work like that - with recordings you are trying to be truthful to what was captured - a clean window is a clean window, whether it cost a staggering amount because of the very fancy frame, or it's a cheap pane of glass bought down the road.

 

The "extraordinary quality" is simply what's on the recording - accuracy to that is all that's necessary; a grandiose rig shouldn't embellish a recording, to make it "better than it actually is"

 

I've already mentioned recent exposure to the D&D 8C speakers, as evidence that it's now possible to purchase more accurate setups ... what people are unhappy with, is the concept that you don't have to spend big bucks to get this ... yes?

Sure D&D 8c. Many, including me, have heard them.  So can you get someone else (preferably with their own stereonet account) to back up your assertion that  your setup sounds similar or better than those, as a starting point? Or invite people over to listen and comment on here.  If a "clean window is a clean window" than others should have no trouble to see though it also.

[fas42]

(sigh ...)

 

The setup looks a mess, it's not in a fit state to be "shown off" - it's merely the current rig that's being "debugged" to be more subjectively accurate to the captured event; as have those in the past - the 8C is an example of something that's been mostly sorted out, by the manufacturer - which of course one pays for. These actives are for me to learn from - down the track it, hopefully, will more presentable.

 

If you want to get a sense of what I'm after, head over here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfhJII7PNRM. This is a low cost capture of output of the previous combo, some old NAD stuff and Sharp speakers ...

 

[frednork]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

(sigh ...)

 

The setup looks a mess, it's not in a fit state to be "shown off" - it's merely the current rig that's being "debugged" to be more subjectively accurate to the captured event; as have those in the past - the 8C is an example of something that's been mostly sorted out, by the manufacturer - which of course one pays for. These actives are for me to learn from - down the track it, hopefully, will more presentable.

 

If you want to get a sense of what I'm after, head over here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfhJII7PNRM. This is a low cost capture of output of the previous combo, some old NAD stuff and Sharp speakers ...

 

ok, well, the ball is in your court then. If you want to be able to get people to listen to you you will need to provide some reason for them to do so. It may take some effort on your part.  So far there is just you with your opinions from your keyboard.  The youtube clip is not really helpful unfortunately. We are all searching for truth, you see.

[fas42]

1 minute ago, frednork said:

ok, well, the ball is in your court then. If you want to be able to get people to listen to you you will need to provide some reason for them to do so. It may take some effort on your part.  So far there is just you with your opinions from your keyboard.  The youtube clip is not really helpful unfortunately. We are all searching for truth, you see.

 

IME, audio enthusiasts are doggedly determined to hang onto their set beliefs, no matter what. It's a case of, you have to do 10x times better than what's actually needed, just to get the message across ... something like, say, women in the workplace have known since forever ... .

 

Biggest problem has always been, that so many variables are involved - trying to get on top of all of them, in a robust way is hard ... very hard. The concept has always been that one has a portable setup, that you can just plunk down, anywhere ... and it's guaranteed to always deliver the goods. Unfortunately, not quite there, yet ... - current Edifiers are the closest yet, to such a setup.