How Loud Will ML1's Go

[bhobba]

Gotta love top shelf reel to reel as well. No digital artifacts in that.

 

Like I said its a personal preference thing.  Vinyl guys call it a digital edge - guys like me call it life.

 

This thread it not going to change any of that.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited August 10, 2013 by bhobba

[Gordon Macfarlane]

Like I said its a personal preference thing.  Vinyl guys call it a digital edge - guys **** me call it life.

 

This thread it not going to change any of that.

 

Thanks

Bill

It's interesting how we all differ so much. For me analogue captures the 'life' better than digital . These days I can enjoy a musical performance on both mediums though.

[bhobba]

Well that confuses me, isn't the 'fact' that changing speakers makes the biggest difference (compared to other components) in a system one of the few things that is (generally!) agreed upon by the audiophile masses?

 

I think most people agree with that - I certainly do - although I do know guys like Hugh Dean that thinks its amps - but that's probably because he spends all his time designing and tuning amps by ear so is very attuned to it.

 

But while that's true there is a general sound to analogue and digital in my experience, the better the speaker the easier it is to hear it.

 

I think I have mentioned it before in other threads but will mention it again.  Mike did a demo of his ML3's down in Sydney and also a demo of Vinyl vs Digital.  I wasn't there but have heard the difference before.  Mike is like me - he thinks Digital MURDERS Vinyl and that's what he thought at the demo.  But guess what - it was about 50-50 which was preferred.  It's simply what some prefer - nothing more than that.

 

And oh yea - master tapes through a good tape machine MURDERS both Vinyl and the usual digital you get.  I say usual because I know people that have digitized the output of a master tape through a good machine and played it back via a good DSD DAC - it was very very close.  This leads me to the conclusion its not so much the medium as the care taken in mastering the final product. 

 

Thanks

Bill 

[bhobba]

It's interesting how we all differ so much. For me analogue captures the 'life' better than digital . These days I can enjoy a musical performance on both mediums though.

 

Like I said - when a public demo was done by Mike - it was 50-50.  Interesting.

 

Have you heard master tapes through a good machine?  Now that was something - mind blowing for me even though I only heard it with Classical music which is not my bag.

 

It sort of gives me a bit of a laugh when I hear about these mega-buck Vinyl rigs.  I am sure they sound fantastic but if I was to spend that sort of money and go to that sort of trouble I would go for master tapes from the tape project and use one of their hotted up machines:

http://www.tapeproject.com/

 

Thanks

Bill

[pete_mac]

Very interesting indeed. The high-end (and not so high end) vinyl rigs that I've heard have always trumped the very very decent digital rigs that I've heard - often in the same system, back-to-back. There's something special there which digital can't do. Each to their own, of course.

[Gordon Macfarlane]

Like I said - when a public demo was done by Mike - it was 50-50.  Interesting.

 

Have you heard master tapes through a good machine?  Now that was something - mind blowing for me even though I only heard it with Classical music which is not my bag.

 

It sort of gives me a bit of a laugh when I hear about these mega-buck Vinyl rigs.  I am sure they sound fantastic but if I was to spend that sort of money and go to that sort of trouble I would go for master tapes from the tape project and use one of their hotted up machines:

http://www.tapeproject.com/

 

Thanks

Bill

Hi Bill , when I was introduced into the world of hi-end music reproduction it was by a neighbor who made his own recordings on one of the Technics top of the line R2R machines. Later on I was pals with a number of BBC Glasgow's audio engineers and got to hear quite a bit of stuff on very hi-end R2R machines. I heard the live performances from which some the tapes were made too.

The master tapes of good performances were incredible but it turned out to be something that was way to expensive for this little duck to play around with.

All this happened back in the early to mid 80's when cd players gave me a headache and imo vinyl replay outclassed digital.

Moving on 30 yrs , was listening to an Lp yesterday and it still seems to have a quality not found even in the best dacs I have heard.

Digital is just so convienient , music servers even more so but if I want to get that sense of 'being there' analogue still does it for me.

[wolster]

Bill, let me take you back a page or three of this thread to the post where you referred to the surface noise of vinyl.

It seems to me that you are unaware that most vinyl users here on SNA play only records that have no surface noise. They do not have the crackles and pops that are more related to cheap systems playing op-shop records.

If you actually took the time to listen to a couple of local half-decent vinyl systems you may not be so dismissive of the medium.

[Guest Muon]

Yup! no need for snap crackle & pop in a vinyl system, I wouldn't have gone analogue only... if it weren't so.

 

Surface noise? what surface noise?

 

Although, if I were in Bill's situation with the arthritis, I would not be keen on it at all.

[rawl99]

The reason I ask (perhaps obvious) is to know if it is the ADA which is causing you to not like it ... or it's the actual config in your "DSP".

 

 

So connecting (for example a DEQX) in "bypass" mode  (so it's not doing anything) is no good ?!

The answer to your question is:

For me, nope it ain't.

That is exactly the first comparison that I did a few years ago when I was unable to achieve the magic results.

Used deqx as D/A only feeding A output directly into amp, then

Used A ( o/p from dac) into deqx to give A-D-A then into amp then into passive speakers.

Also used custom 3ways designed by same speaker designer as my passives, using 6channels of amplification and still found passive to be better for me.

So then, after the detour, I returned to attempting to get the most out of the passive setup.

Pretty happy now but always looking for more.

Building a third setup using full range and SET progressively as time allows.

Chuckles heartily since this setup has quite a bit of work left to make it happen.

Cheers Dave

Rawl

[Willco]

 

 

 

Like I said its a personal preference thing.  Vinyl guys call it a digital edge - guys like me call it life.

 

This thread it not going to change any of that.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

Ha, Ah Bill my wise old Soul mate!-- sorry to disagree with you(for once!) I'll take Great Vinyl over Great Digital any day-- well it's only 2013--we'll give it time!

 

Willco

Edited August 10, 2013 by Willco

[bhobba]

Bill, let me take you back a page or three of this thread to the post where you referred to the surface noise of vinyl. It seems to me that you are unaware that most vinyl users here on SNA play only records that have no surface noise. They do not have the crackles and pops that are more related to cheap systems playing op-shop records. If you actually took the time to listen to a couple of local half-decent vinyl systems you may not be so dismissive of the medium.

 

You know it really amazes me the conclusions people jump to.  I post I prefer digital to vinyl and automatically that becomes 'If you actually took the time to listen to a couple of local half-decent vinyl systems you may not be so dismissive of the medium.'

 

I clearly posted earlier you can get rid of the clicks, pops hiss etc - and you can - but it takes a bit of effort (cleaning records - using the anti static gun etc etc) - effort I simply don't want to put in - especially when I prefer Digital to begin with.

 

I have stated a number of times its a personal preference thing.  At the demo I mentioned it was 50-50 which was preferred.  Were the 50% that didn't like it all idiots?  Were the 50% that did the same?  I say no - its simply a personal preference. But for some reason there are those that want to argue the point. 

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited August 10, 2013 by bhobba

[Willco]

Hi Bill , when I was introduced into the world of hi-end music reproduction it was by a neighbor who made his own recordings on one of the Technics top of the line R2R machines. Later on I was pals with a number of BBC Glasgow's audio engineers and got to hear quite a bit of stuff on very hi-end R2R machines. I heard the live performances from which some the tapes were made too.

The master tapes of good performances were incredible but it turned out to be something that was way to expensive for this little duck to play around with.

All this happened back in the early to mid 80's when cd players gave me a headache and imo vinyl replay outclassed digital.

Moving on 30 yrs , was listening to an Lp yesterday and it still seems to have a quality not found even in the best dacs I have heard.

Digital is just so convienient , music servers even more so but if I want to get that sense of 'being there' analogue still does it for me.

Ah Oz the nostalgia of the intro to" Audiophoolery" that obsesses us relentlessly--or why do we procrastinate so in public here

 

Mine was as a penniless Art student from hicksville NZ in London --I happened to be wandering past the Kingsway Hall in Holborn and the door was open music emitting forth--I snuck inside and was treated the the LSO rehearsing for a recording with the great Ken Wilkinson.

 

After 50 odd years I still am awestruck at the power of the performance that day! 

 

In the  later years College break I worked on Ready Steady Go at ARediffusion  and was lucky to get copies of the Audio tapes( don't ask how but she was pretty!)-live remember--over 42 mics used!-- I had a Revox G36 and as you would know 15IPS live recording is rarely bettered

 

Thanks for the memories

 

Willco

[ArthurDent]

I have stated a number of times its a personal preference thing.  At the demo I mentioned it was 50-50 which was preferred.  Were the 50% that didn't like it all idiots?  Were the 50% that did the same?  I say no - its simply a personal preference. But for some reason there are those that want to argue the point.

Perhaps there would be less of them if you didn't use terms like "MURDERS" which implies that the difference is so great that you would in fact be an idiot to prefer vinyl. I am somewhat surprised though that the sponsor of this sub-forum feels the same way.

I find digital MURDERS vinyl to my ears.

Mike is like me - he thinks Digital MURDERS Vinyl and that's what he thought at the demo.

[Willco]

Aw -Ken   -- Give Bill some slack--he meant it I'm sure in a rhetorical sense.

 

Willco

[bhobba]

Aw -Ken   -- Give Bill some slack--he meant it I'm sure in a rhetorical sense.

 

What other sense can it be?

 

Look its just hyperbole on my part meaning its easily better to my ears.  Nothing more - nothing less.

 

I readily admit others prefer Vinyl and the split seems about 50-50.  I have no problems with it - don't really understand why some Vinyl guys don't feel the same.

 

I know Willco has a VERY good ear and he has recently returned to the large black CD's.  I hope one day to hear the system that converted him - would be very interesting.

 

Thanks

Bill

[A J]

I have stated a number of times its a personal preference thing. At the demo I mentioned it was 50-50 which was preferred. Were the 50% that didn't like it all idiots? Were the 50% that did the same? I say no - its simply a personal preference. But for some reason there are those that want to argue the point.Perhaps there would be less of them if you didn't use terms like "MURDERS" which implies that the difference is so great that you would in fact be an idiot to prefer vinyl. I am somewhat surprised though that the sponsor of this sub-forum feels the same way.I find digital MURDERS vinyl to my ears.Mike is like me - he thinks Digital MURDERS Vinyl and that's what he thought at the demo.

Yeah look I agree - I think that this view is improbable if you wanted to be objective - I've had the pleasure if listening to some great systems both digital and vinyl and there are differences but I could not ever say that one murders the other.

[Guest Muon]

Agreed, both can sound very good, and after that It's up to the individual and their preferences.

 

I could live with either, but went with one due to preferences.

[Guest fordgtlover]

You know it really amazes me the conclusions people jump to.  I post I prefer digital to vinyl and automatically that becomes 'If you actually took the time to listen to a couple of local half-decent vinyl systems you may not be so dismissive of the medium.'

 

 

[bhobba]

 

From the forum guidelines:

 

Recognise that different people may have a different opinion or philosophy.

There are many camps in audio, and many people with different approaches to HiFi than your own. There are objectivists vs. subjectivists, valves vs. transistors, passive pre-amps vs. active pre-amps and so on. Go ahead and discuss these, even debate them to the death, but do not make it personal, stay on topic and respect others' differing opinions.

 

I post I prefer Digital, am admonished that I should take the time to listen to half decent systems, implying I haven't - and its the Pot calling the Kettle black - hmmm.

 

Added Later:

 

I have been clear.  Some prefer Vinyl.  Some prefer Digital.  I personally prefer Digital by a significant margin.  I have no problem with Vinyl aficionados, I will not ask them to listen to half decent digital or anything like that.  Its simply what some like.  Some think both sound great - that's fine as well.  And while I prefer Digital I freely admit some Vinyl I have heard sounded good.  Lets have a bit of live and let live.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited August 11, 2013 by bhobba

[Guest myrantz]

 

stay on topic

Speaking of that ... how loud can the ML1s go in the real world? 

 

technically loudness is a perception, but then again I'm interested to find out the max SPL.

 

Did try to take a picture but it's harder than I though :/ I'm thinking mine (or me) max out at only 75 dB SPL..  That's kind of normal and I'm sure it can go harder.. but how much harder?

[Lenehan Audio]

It's interesting how we all differ so much. For me analogue captures the 'life' better than digital . These days I can enjoy a musical performance on both mediums though.

Hi Ozcall      there's definitely  a huge divide here between the Digital and Turntable guys.  When I released the ML3Reference at the Sydney Audio Club there was about 75 people there, we used a PDX and Mac Mini.

 

One of the members brought his Turntable ! a nicely rebuilt Direct Drive with good arm and a $700 phono cartridge ! I also brought a sealed copy of Rickie Lee Jones Showbiz Kids 45RPM Analogue Productions Vinyl.

 

The digital just slaughtered the Vinyl ! my brother leant over to me while the vinyl was playing and said he was shocked at how dead and slow the record was ( both my brothers own rebuilt Garard 301 and 401 in custom 30kg plinths. ) After asking about a dozen people what they prefered I was  shocked to hear that only about two thirds thought the Digital was better and that the club president actually liked the Vinyl better.

 

My partner Joanne hears very well but is not an audiophile ! she said to me on the way home in the car that she couldn't undersatand someone liking the Vinyl because it sounded like the instruments and singer  was a long way away   !! " from the mouth of babes " or should I say a Babe ?

 

I have heard the Rockport Sirius 111 turntable that Rawl99 has heard and thought it sounded very good but not more than that. This was insitu in a 1 million dollar system at the time. I came straight back to the factory and played the same material on ML1Reference and a Level2 PDX and I'm afraid it wiped the floor with the megabuck system.

 

In the last 10 years I've heard some good turntables ! I remember comparing a VPI Scout with a CD player in Rawl99's system about 3years ago ! (Dire Straights ,Private investigations )  it was close but I think the Turntable won that one.

 

What intrigues me no end is that this huge rift exists between audiophiles re this subject ! Psycho acoustics  ? Perhaps some peoples hearing is simply different , just as good as another persons but different.

 

A friend of mine has a great system using a superbly set up Linn LP12 with $5K Audiotechnica Anniversary cartridge. He does listen to CD and loves it but feel the LP12 is capable of much more ( probably would be ) He has over 1000 records but only about 40 next to the system the rest are up stairs. I said haven't you got room to put near the turntable ? He said no ! these are the only ones that sound good nearly all the stuff upstairs is **** ! I said WHAT surely at least half of it is good playable material, come on mate are you being a bit anal ? is it real old stuf ? No most is in mint condition an very good vinyl. 

 

Digital doesn't do this, I can select anything on my Mac Mini and hit play ! it sound awesome. 

 

When recently in Edinburgh Scotland I recorded an 8ft Steinway grande in a Cathedral with awesome acoustics using a high rez 24/96 field recorder ( 90 degree Blumlien )

at about 4mtrs. I was very interested to hear what it would sound like on the factory system ! I didn't expect too much to be honest. I was shocked at how good this was, it was subjectively 95% of exactly what I heard at the venue. Where was it different you may ask ? the recording through my system sounded just a touch more airy than I remember hearing and the replay sounded fractionally more impressive or perhaps try hard ! for want of a better expletive. 

 

I'm quite happy to burn a few copies if anyone want s to hear this.

 

This is of course my subjective opinion and believe me I'm not against Vinyl or analogue, at one time all I would use is a 15ips Mastering machine 456 Grande Master and two AKG crossed Mic's then drive it directly into a pair of Allen Wrights (RIP) 20watt classA Monoblocks and into stacked Quad 57's.

 

I'm happy to speak to anyone re this subject but if posts start going sideways and a bit funny I shall withdraw.

 

PS   just had a thought ! how about another shootout  GTG    anyone got a good turntable they will bring down ?             Best Regards Mike Lenehan      LenehanAudio

[bhobba]

After asking about a dozen people what they prefered I was  shocked to hear that only about two thirds thought the Digital was better and that the club president actually liked the Vinyl better.

 

Hi Mike

 

That's interesting.  I was at a Queensland Audio Club GTG and chatted to someone that was there.  He thought it was 50-50 and preferred the Vinyl as well.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited August 11, 2013 by bhobba

[Peter_F]

 

One of the members brought his Turntable ! a nicely rebuilt Direct Drive with good arm and a $700 phono cartridge ! I also brought a sealed copy of Rickie Lee Jones Showbiz Kids 45RPM Analogue Productions Vinyl.

 

The digital just slaughtered the Vinyl ! my brother leant over to me while the vinyl was playing and said he was shocked at how dead and slow the record was ( both my brothers own rebuilt Garard 301 and 401 in custom 30kg plinths. ) After asking about a dozen people what they prefered I was  shocked to hear that only about two thirds thought the Digital was better and that the club president actually liked the Vinyl better.

 

Hi Mike

 

I like both digital and vinyl, but for different aspects that either format can bring to the table and my particular mood at the time.   But I have to say that a dead and slow vinyl rig would be the fault of the vinyl rig, not the medium itself.  Under no circumstances have I experienced a digital rig slaughter a vinyl rig, it's just not possible if the vinyl rig is fully optimised.    That has been my experience.  

 

A $100 cartridge on fully optimised TT will outperform a very good cartridge on a poorly implemented rig every time.

 

How this relates to the OP, I dunno?? 

 

Cheers

 

Pete 

[rawl99]

Hi guy's ,slightly o.t. but Linn have recently introduced a new speaker in 2 forms : full active with analogue electronic crossovers and passive.

It would be interesting for some of you to go to your local Linn dealers and compare the speaker in both it's formats.

The speakers is called the Akubarik and uses a form of Isobaric bass loading.

Thank you for that information.

I shall see if I can tee up such a comparo.

The question then becomes whether the front end that is running with the speakers is actually able to differentiate between the two configurations. Pity they won't let me bring my own electronics!

Or maybe I can twist Tristan's arm and see.

Pity that the exercise then becomes a very large PITA to actually achieve.

On the to-do list when a slot comes up.

Rawl

[Telecine]

 

PS   just had a thought! how about another shootout  GTG    anyone got a good turntable they will bring down ?             Best Regards Mike Lenehan      LenehanAudio

Depends on your definition of good but I could probably provide something depending on timing. I can also provide a phono stage but a preamp is required too.