nofixedaddress Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Going to make a bold NFA prediction, I think this digital conundrum of what is missing will be solved in the next 5 years. I think what will solve it will be the invention of super digitisers that sample at mhz rates and massive bit depths. Only then can we use these devices to minutely inspect and quantify what is being corrupted inside the 16/44.1 AD-DA process. Record with a super AD unit, convert to 16/44.1 via the normal process, run through a domestic DAC capturing the resulting analogue output with the same super AD unit. Compare and analyse pre and post 16/44.1. Until the resulting wave from the 16/44.1 process can be very closely looked at in the raw - we just don't know what it is doing wrong. I have seen this massive over sample technology change thinking in other industries. So many unseen effects that slipped through gaps in older technologies are glaringly obvious when the subject has been super scanned. It is the darkest corners that are covered by theories and assumptions that are the first to change under the cold light of reality. NFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundfan Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Arg, exactly what are you suggesting as an alternative to 'casual listening?' I'm asking because isn't that exactly what we all but our music and stereo systems for? I'd love to hear Arg give a detailed post as to what you asked. This casual listening line keeps getting raised all the time, but I'm waiting to hear his solution. Over to you Arg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once was an audiophile Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'd love to hear Arg give a detailed post as to what you asked. This casual listening line keeps getting raised all the time, but I'm waiting to hear his solution.Over to you Arg. +100 all talk no action audio 101 where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b.d Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'd like to predict a future of digital downloads to a mini home vinyl press where an LP of recyclable material is instantly pressed for each listen, then recycled for the next. All done inside a box with no need to get off the couch to change albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 People that like vinyl to begin with seem to find that vinyl that comes from a digital master still sounds better than that digital file itself. This to me can only lead to one logical explanation.... that vinyl 'adds' something that vinyl guys like. I can't see how people could say it is the opposite (digital subtracts) as the vinyl has also gone through a DAC stage. I thought that quite often the digital file used for pressing vinly and digital file recorded to cd were, in fact, quite different as different post-recording processing was used so that the music was optimised for the format. If so, then this might be another logical explanation. Orpheus: this expresses nicely what I am on about with the 'nth degree' extra layer of detail found in some records. And, it's not there just in instrumental over tones, it is even heard in the way records reproduce the human voice, which has better pitch, expression and emotion. I do think all of this is there with digital systems, just not quite there yet particularly in home playback systems or ones that I have experienced so far. Steve My recollection was that you were taking the analogue output from the pre-amp to the dbx driverack which then did cross-over / equalisation in the digital domain before output to the amplifiers. Is this still the case? If so, then it'd be interesting to do the comparison between vinyl and, say, a 24/96 digital recording on your system (assuming that the digital x/o operates at 24/96). Cheers, APS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHC Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 This is the crux of the matter and it explains a lot IMHO.People that like vinyl to begin with seem to find that vinyl that comes from a digital master still sounds better than that digital file itself. This to me can only lead to one logical explanation.... that vinyl 'adds' something that vinyl guys like. I can't see how people could say it is the opposite (digital subtracts) as the vinyl has also gone through a DAC stage. I think others have said similar thing about vinyl playback in this thread. There is no other way to reconcile the differences in opinions. (my guess is) the magic is in the way cartridges convert kinetic movement into electrical signals. The vinyl groves are not 100% perfect, but minute variances might be converted to micro-dynamic details. Call this distortion or imperfection or whatever. But could this add to the realism of the music? Think of it this way. If one plays a note on a violin, it would sound nice. But if one adds small perturbations in the form of vibrato, then the same note becomes rich, lovely and full of harmonics. Is the cartridge doing the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nofixedaddress Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Think of it this way. If one plays a note on a violin, it would sound nice. But if one adds small perturbations in the form of vibrato, then the same note becomes rich, lovely and full of harmonics. Is the cartridge doing the same thing? Surely that rich lovely, full of harmonics sound has already been captured in the recording process? Or has it? NFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I'd like to predict a future of digital downloads to a mini home vinyl press where an LP of recyclable material is instantly pressed for each listen, then recycled for the next. All done inside a box with no need to get off the couch to change albums. Bevan, no need for vinyl replay with the stuff you are doing in the DSP domain ...excellent from what I have heard with your set up. Great post stevem we had our fights in the past but i do give credit where its due for a personal opinion based on home listening If your after more i recommend you go I2S to the tda1541 with a great transport cd50 won't cut the mustard against vinyl i was the first person in perth to own that transport and it changed hands many times. If your after more you can't go past duellunds they are more coherent without the colouration of ampohms caps food for thought they reveal more timbre,texture inner resolution of instruments and vocals.Regarding the kajak12 clock its good but zenelectro clock is like taking a vale of the speakers.(kajak12 clock discontinued) Enjoy your journey Mario, all in good time ... My recollection was that you were taking the analogue output from the pre-amp to the dbx driverack which then did cross-over / equalisation in the digital domain before output to the amplifiers. Is this still the case? If so, then it'd be interesting to do the comparison between vinyl and, say, a 24/96 digital recording on your system (assuming that the digital x/o operates at 24/96).[/size][/font][/font]APS Andrew/APS, I'm not using the DBX at the moment, just running the stats in a normal hifi system with isobaric woofer to support the low end. Also, haven't done those 24/96kHz comparisons you mentioned. I think others have said similar thing about vinyl playback in this thread. There is no other way to reconcile the differences in opinions. (my guess is) the magic is in the way cartridges convert kinetic movement into electrical signals. The vinyl groves are not 100% perfect, but minute variances might be converted to micro-dynamic details. Call this distortion or imperfection or whatever. But could this add to the realism of the music? Think of it this way. If one plays a note on a violin, it would sound nice. But if one adds small perturbations in the form of vibrato, then the same note becomes rich, lovely and full of harmonics. Is the cartridge doing the same thing? LHC, interesting thoughts that align with Orpheus's theories about a cartridge being a musical instrument and making differences at the physical level. Regards, Steve. Edited February 10, 2012 by Steve M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 LHC, interesting thoughts that align with Orpheus's theories about a cartridge being a musical instrument and making differences at the physical level. Regards, Steve. This by definition means that the cartridge is 'adding' to the performance. A musical instrument 'creates' music. Therefore the cartridge is adding distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Drizt mate, that's like saying a musical instrument makes noise?? Mind you, a violin in the hands of an unpractised 5 year old is pretty noisy ;-)) Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Drizt mate, that's like saying a musical instrument makes noise?? Mind you, a violin in the hands of an unpractised 5 year old is pretty noisy ;-))Steve. Are you saying a musical instrament is 100% accurate 100% of the time? I think that is what is know as synthesised music It is either accurate reproduction or it is innacurate musical creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 This by definition means that the cartridge is 'adding' to the performance.A musical instrument 'creates' music. Therefore the cartridge is adding distortion. Agreed but how, fundamentally, is this different to the filters within a DAC? The different filters re-construct the digital signal - based on different objectives (i.e., linear versus minimum phase) - into different analogue waveforms. How is this any different? APS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I wasnt saying it was different. I was responding to the seemingly contradictory statements by orpheus. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I wasnt saying it was different.I was responding to the seemingly contradictory statements by orpheus. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Which were the "seemingly contradictory statements"? And which cake am I trying to have and eat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Which were the "seemingly contradictory statements"? And which cake am I trying to have and eat? TT's don't add anything..... and The cart is a musical instrument (creating music). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 TT's don't add anything.....and The cart is a musical instrument (creating music). Yes, it might be creating what is already there though. The method of reconstructing what is there might be part of their magic. It may not involve adding details which are not there in the original performance. That said, they might be adding some things often, and I doubt that is a positive, or what I like about them. I don't think I've ever said categorically they don't add anything, only that that is not what I like about them. I don't know whether I can be entirely logical or consistent, as I don't really know why I like the sound. I just know that it is not because of any departure from the sound of actual performances, but rather a type of fidelity to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I'd love to hear Arg give a detailed post as to what you asked. This casual listening line keeps getting raised all the time, but I'm waiting to hear his solution. Over to you Arg. Hey I'm still waiting for clarification on this which was sought several pages back when I wrote this... So what you're saying is that the only way to decide if a piece of gear will work for you at home, in your own room and with all the other bits of gear you own is to not listen to it in that room and with all that gear but in fact somewhere else and a no doubt completely different environment using a lot of expensive equipment and the views of a whole heap of other people that won't be listening to it in your system and in your room. and that was being polite, at least I didn't say it was a load of bollocks and all I got back was this... First, do you agree that the method you have been using all your life " is just wrong, it leads to terrible results and poor decisons and waste of money, it serves the interests of salesmen/women, and it is a disservice to the audiophile who wants high performance and fidelity to the master tape,..."?.. Edited February 10, 2012 by KenTripp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Steve's post very much reflects my approach and experience ... and me. My TDA1541A based CD player sounds worse in many ways to my (main) computer setup (Async USB2 + Wolfson DAC) .... but at the same time, it really highlights something that the 'beter' system is missing in "believable sound". It's what I hear on all non-digital systems to a greater or lesser extent. I wake up every day with my head 2 feet away from an old mono FM radio, which has a 2" driver in a plastic box, which distorts like crazy. The sound can be real/3D in ways I have heard some systems completely lack. Sure, my stereo sounds "better" in almost every regard .... but there is certainly IMO something going on with sound playback WRT what is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) People that like vinyl to begin with seem to find that vinyl that comes from a digital master still sounds better than that digital file itself. This to me can only lead to one logical explanation.... that vinyl 'adds' something that vinyl guys like. I can't see how people could say it is the opposite (digital subtracts) as the vinyl has also gone through a DAC stage. There is a possibility that you're ignoring relevant differences in D to A conversion between the vinyl production process, and an audio DAC. Edited February 11, 2012 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hey I'm still waiting for clarification on this which was sought several pages back when I wrote this...So what you're saying is that the only way to decide if a piece of gear will work for you at home, in your own room and with all the other bits of gear you own is to not listen to it in that room and with all that gear but in fact somewhere else and a no doubt completely different environment using a lot of expensive equipment and the views of a whole heap of other people that won't be listening to it in your system and in your room. I'm not Arg, but I'll take a stab at this and say, yes! Having offered an unqualified 'yes' like that, there'll undoubtedly be well reasoned argument as to why that method would be totally impractical . . . and you'd be right. However, it does have the potential advantage of removing the expectation bias, placebo effect, salesmen/women, advertising revenue compromised reviewers etc. from the equation. Does that make it perfect? No way . . . just a whole lot better as a reference line in the sand. With that said, I expect there will be plenty who believe some mysterious blind panel of judges prefer a different music flavour than they do and again maintain their own personal listening tests suit them better. It's inevitable . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekyboy Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'd love to hear Arg give a detailed post as to what you asked. This casual listening line keeps getting raised all the time, but I'm waiting to hear his solution.Over to you Arg. Hey I'm still waiting for clarification on this which was sought several pages back when I wrote this...Originally Posted by KenTripp So what you're saying is that the only way to decide if a piece of gear will work for you at home, in your own room and with all the other bits of gear you own is to not listen to it in that room and with all that gear but in fact somewhere else and a no doubt completely different environment using a lot of expensive equipment and the views of a whole heap of other people that won't be listening to it in your system and in your room. and that was being polite, at least I didn't say it was a load of bollocks and all I got back was this... Originally Posted by Arg First, do you agree that the method you have been using all your life " is just wrong, it leads to terrible results and poor decisons and waste of money, it serves the interests of salesmen/women, and it is a disservice to the audiophile who wants high performance and fidelity to the master tape,..."?. . Good luck with this fellas and I'd be interested too, but I doubt it will be forthcoming............... SteveM's lengthy post was very good indeed and to summarise he says, to his ears and in his current system that he is definitely hearing more information (inner detail) with vinyl, however he does feel that in the end that there is something subtractive about the digital process. This is exactly what myself and many others have been saying throughout this thread and it has me continuing to go back to the argument that isn't that what the OP wanted. Who is going to care about the engineering and accuracy of a particular format, if at the end of the day it doesn't sound any good when music is played?...............nobody that I know! Cheers, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 There is a possibility that you're ignoring relevant differences in D to A conversion between the vinyl production process, and an audio DAC. Either way it has to get back to analog, a DAC is involved! If you have some info that details how they do it differently I'm willing to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I wish people could reason through this stuff more logically without getting emotional. I'll leave you to it guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Crunch Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Going to make a bold NFA prediction,I think this digital conundrum of what is missing will be solved in the next 5 years. I think what will solve it will be the invention of super digitisers that sample at mhz rates and massive bit depths. Only then can we use these devices to minutely inspect and quantify what is being corrupted inside the 16/44.1 AD-DA process. Record with a super AD unit, convert to 16/44.1 via the normal process, run through a domestic DAC capturing the resulting analogue output with the same super AD unit. Compare and analyse pre and post 16/44.1. Until the resulting wave from the 16/44.1 process can be very closely looked at in the raw - we just don't know what it is doing wrong. I have seen this massive over sample technology change thinking in other industries. So many unseen effects that slipped through gaps in older technologies are glaringly obvious when the subject has been super scanned. It is the darkest corners that are covered by theories and assumptions that are the first to change under the cold light of reality. NFA If this happens then vinyl is definitely on life support and fading fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I wish people could reason through this stuff more logically without getting emotional. I'll leave you to it guys. What do you mean by getting "emotional", though? Logic is a necessary part of analysing why you prefer one sound to another, however, logic only takes you so far. I certainly accept that there are many theoretical advantages to a digital playback mechanism (ultimately computer based, I suspect), and I accept also that the complex algorhythms by which the digits are converted to a wave, and the wave is amplified to line level, are sophisticated and theoretically reasonably "accurate". However, all I can see over the last few pages which you must consider "emotional" is people's considered and measured explanation of what it is they hear when they listen to their records which they think they are missing when they listen to their CDs or computers. I don't know what "reasoning through this stuff more logically" means, Aaron, or how, whatever it is, it would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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