High resolution vs Vinyl

[Orpheus]

The general feeling I get from posts over the last couple of days infers:

1.If you prefer the sound of vinyl; your a dumb *** who doesn't know better. You'll always be ignorant, until you either become an engineer, or start preferring digital over vinyl. Or get edumecated at skool beter. More than likely a music fan who enjoys vinyl will also own a lot of worthless equipment.

2. If you prefer the sound of digital; you are very very intelligent, but alas, never enjoy listening to music at home because you are forever analysing, measuring, dissing and debunking any other theory put forward by a way less intelligent human that listens to records because they think it sounds better.

You are also likely to not care about the reproduction of music at home, and generally an ipod or MP3 player may suffice as it really shows how outstanding digital can be. Its more accurate, so how in the world could those dumb asses with cloth ears enjoy listening to vinyl more.

And that's only vinyl vs digital; wait until we start talking about speakers, and accuracy will again come into it. God help those fools.

Hmmm, perhaps the little fellow with the party hat saves you here......speaking as a poster, not a Mod.

[Drizt]

1.If you prefer the sound of vinyl; your a dumb *** who doesn't know better.

Just a correction, I don't think anyone has actually said that, or even inferred that.

Preference has never been argued. People have all sorts of preferences and none of them are right or wrong (well, not in this context).

[soundfan]

Hmmm, perhaps the little fellow with the party hat saves you here......speaking as a poster, not a Mod.

Yes Orpheus, it was posted tongue in cheek, although there lurks some truth somewhere in what I posted.

Dritz, you may well be right.

Chris

Edited February 8, 2012 by soundfan

[Orpheus]

Just a correction, I don't think anyone has actually said that, or even inferred that.

Preference has never been argued. People have all sorts of preferences and none of them are right or wrong (well, not in this context).

Actually, yes. I think that has been the tone from gFunk and Arg, in fact I think in frustration they have pretty well said it, but perhaps it is not entirely intended (they may say that it is!), and I think they might make more progress with a more conciliatory approach.

If you want me to dig out the threads, I will, but I am sure you don't!

[David.M]

More than likely a music fan who enjoys vinyl will also own a lot of worthless equipment.

Just a couple of corrections, I don't think it is just vinyl listeners involved here, isn't it those of us (most I would think) who foolishly engage in home listening to assist with equipment purchase decisions? Secondly, I don't think it has been suggested our equipment is 'worthless', on the contrary we waste money on expensive equipment, it just happens to sound bad. That's alright though because there are so many audiophiles out there making il-informed decisions that there should be no problem selling the gear if ever we realize that home listening has misled us.

[Drizt]

Actually, yes. I think that has been the tone from gFunk and Arg, in fact I think in frustration they have pretty well said it, but perhaps it is not entirely intended (they may say that it is!), and I think they might make more progress with a more conciliatory approach.

If you want me to dig out the threads, I will, but I am sure you don't!

Nah, no need to go thread digging, we could just ask them.

From what I have gathered, I thought they were arguing the accuracy point rather than the preference point. I know people get upset though when they are told that their preference may not be accurate. That fact has always baffled me. Why do people get up set by that? Can't they just be happy with what their preference is without worrying if it is in fact accurate or not.

[Dr X]

Features:

• Cut by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman at AcousTech Mastering

• From the Original Analog Master Tapes

• Pressed on Audiophile Virgin Vinyl at Pallas Records in Germany

Thanks for the input, but I don't believe this answers the question.

[Guest Muon]

Hiya, this isn't dogmatism.

Scientific logic is the use of a system of ideas based upon sufficiently examined premises (the measurements).

Although, as you rightly point out, some things can't or most likely have not been measured yet, the scientific process is all about the rigorous pursuit of logical proof through objective and replicable observation.

Advancement through science you see is the total opposite of dogmatism.

Apologies if this appears argumentative! I just want things to be clear.

No need for apologies, what I posted was only an observation and not how all engineers approach things

[Guest guru]

hahahaha :nana:)

bazingah !!!!

[millsy]

Further to this (please take note Jake) the OP stated this: This evening I have been comparing Rumours on High Res compared to the remastered vinyl Rumours (33.3). To my surprise, vinyl still rules the roost to my ears and in my system.

Now in case I missed it, can anyone give evidence that the remastered vinyl Runours (33.3) has actually come from an all analog source and that it has never undergone digital conversion???

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not two masters used? The high res digital one was the inferior euro master and the vinyl was the superior us master?

[cheekyboy]

I know people get upset though when they are told that their preference may not be accurate. That fact has always baffled me. Why do people get up set by that? Can't they just be happy with what their preference is without worrying if it is in fact accurate or not.

Granted Aaron, but would you say the opposite is also fair? I know people who get upset when they are told that their accurate equipment doesn't sound much good too........you needn't look beyond this thread for that! Here's a quote from one of our accuracy lobby not so far back in this thread talking about vinyl.........................

I would contest a cheap cd player could outperform an expensive record player any day of the week...

Superseded format and playback device for a reason ,in fact, my iPhone could out perform most record players...

I've got nothing against vinyl... If you have a large collection of records you want to still be able to play. But in terms of reproduction accuracy there simply is no contest.

................and I guess accuracy does get a mention, but got nothing against vinyl......come on, pull the other one!

Cheers,

Keith

[Dr X]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not two masters used? The high res digital one was the inferior euro master and the vinyl was the superior us master?

I'm not a vinyl boy so getting totally out of my comfort zone but apparently there were 2 vinyl editions recently, 45rpm and 33.3rpm.

http://myvinylreview.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/fleetwood-mac-rumours-45-rpm-180-gram.html

I still can't work out if the 33.3 version the OP was referring to has been digitsed at some point but would like to know the answer.

[Orpheus]

I'll put my superseded technology against his iPhone any day. I'll put it up against my iPhone, for that matter.

[GFuNK]

Granted Aaron, but would you say the opposite is also fair? I know people who get upset when they are told that their accurate equipment doesn't sound much good too........you needn't look beyond this thread for that! Here's a quote from one of our accuracy lobby not so far back in this thread talking about vinyl.........................

................and I guess accuracy does get a mention, but got nothing against vinyl......come on, pull the other one!

Cheers,

Keith

I don't, if you had quoted some of my other posts, I state that, I really do hope vinyl sticks around.

But if you want to talk on accuracy, well that's another matter .

[Drizt]

Granted Aaron, but would you say the opposite is also fair?

Cheers,

Keith

Of course, that applies for all.

[Orpheus]

I am only suggesting this as a hypothetical. But I wonder, if we all put aside our preconceptions, and sat down and listened on a good quality system to the digital system of choice of the digital proponents, and a vinyl system of choice of a vinyl proponent, whether there were would be broad agreement about their qualities?

I know some would call this "casual home listening", but surely it would be of some interest, if not "proof" of anything?

Given that I regularly find my preconceptions developed after research shattered when I listen, and given this is probably a common experience, I'd be interested to do it.

[cheekyboy]

Just wondering whether anyone has compared high res with vinyl and what people think.

Apologies if this thread already exists. Please provide a link, if this is so.

Yes, I'm just looking for personal preferences. Interested to see if other peoples finding s are similar to my own

Thanks 'fone.

Wondering of anyone else has any experience they want to share specifically relating to High Res (rather than CD)?

The reason I ask is I have recently got into downloading albums from HD tracks. I was fairly sure that these would sound better, or get close to vinyl. This evening I have been comparing Rumours on High Res compared to the remastered vinyl Rumours (33.3). To my surprise, vinyl still rules the roost to my ears and in my system.

It's no that high res is bad, it's just so different (on this particular recording. I plan to try others)

Just for clarity, the above posts are the original three posts by the OP...........the highlighted text is my doing. Please note he's asking for a subjective view and personal preference.

Dr X asked about the remastering and all I know is that the version I have, mastered by Steve Hoffman was done from the original analog master tapes and no mention made of being digitised at any point in the process.

I don't, if you had quoted some of my other posts, I state that, I really do hope vinyl sticks around.

But if you want to talk on accuracy, well that's another matter .

You don't have anything against vinyl? You were just kidding about the cheap CDP or iPhone being superior in your opinion?

Edit: I have always tried to be consistent here and my comments have always been made from my personal experience and preferences for sound quality and nothing to do with accuracy with regard to either format. Which I do believe is what the OP was in fact looking for.

Cheers,

Keith

Edited February 8, 2012 by cheekyboy

[GFuNK]

Just for clarity, the above posts are the original three posts by the OP...........the highlighted text is my doing. Please note he's asking for a subjective view and personal preference.

Dr X asked about the remastering and all I know is that the version I have, mastered by Steve Hoffman was done from the original analog master tapes and no mention made of being digitised at any point in the process.

You don't have anything against vinyl? You were just kidding about the cheap CDP or iPhone being superior in your opinion?

Edit: I have always tried to be consistent here and my comments have always been made from my personal experience and preferences for sound quality and nothing to do with accuracy with regard to either format. Which I do believe is what the OP was in fact looking for.

Cheers,

Keith

In terms of accuracy, no I wasn't kidding, and my comments were responding to other posts...

Besides, I think this thread has lost its coherence with respect to the OP anyway.

I will resist the silly urge to put a smiley face or wink in an attempt to stir...

[cheekyboy]

In terms of accuracy, no I wasn't kidding, and my comments were responding to other posts...

Besides, I think this thread has lost its coherence with respect to the OP anyway.

I will resist the silly urge to put a smiley face or wink in an attempt to stir...

That's fair enough too, but none of my responses have been made because of accuracy, perceived or otherwise of these formats and I'd suggest that the vast majority giving their personal preferences in this thread, be it for vinyl or hi res digital, are made because of what they prefer to listen to and not whether the format is accurate or not. To answer the question posed by the OP, why not just state that in your experience your preference is for hi res digital and leave it at that?..........you'd get no argument from me on that.

Oh, I like the smiley face thingies and this one is my favourite.

Edit: Thinking about this accuracy thing and assuming you're correct and these devices you mentioned are more accurate..........what good is that in our hobby if they don't sound as good?

Cheers,

Keith

Edited February 8, 2012 by cheekyboy

[davewantsmoore]

If digital is so perfect, why does it need error correction? And pray do tell, how does error correction work? Why it makes up the data on a best guess scenario! See:

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/CD_Ripping_Terminology#Is_the_CIRC_error_detection.2Fcorrection_process_perfect.3F

Whilst the error loss is potentially low, it is variable, and there is error loss. There goes accuracy ;-)

I'll walk away from this thread with a nice chuckle! Have a nice day.

Uuuuummmmm..... Hopefully I'm not the only one who thinks your smoke-and-mirrors bombs has failed there.

[Drizt]

Uuuuummmmm..... Hopefully I'm not the only one who thinks your smoke-and-mirrors bombs has failed there.

hehe, a few people had a chuckle at it, you're a bit late to the party though.

[Drizt]

Edit: Thinking about this accuracy thing and assuming you're correct and these devices you mentioned are more accurate..........what good is that in our hobby if they don't sound as good?

Cheers,

Keith

That is what I have been saying all along! Personal preference wins each and every time. So people should not get upset if what they like is not accurate, who cares.

[cheekyboy]

That is what I have been saying all along! Personal preference wins each and every time. So people should not get upset if what they like is not accurate, who cares.

Yes you're right, but I guess what I don't understand is the group simply preferring digital to vinyl purely on the belief that the digital is more accurate. eg the cheap CDP or iPhone over any record player rubbish etc.....which was arrived at purely because that person perceives that something more accurate will sound better........I've got news for him! I guess I'm just old fashioned and prefer to judge my music by the sound quality and not necessarily stick with a format simply because it measures more accurately.

Cheers,

Keith

[davewantsmoore]

Are you sure about that prof?

http://web.mit.edu/2.972/www/reports/ear/ear.html

Gah. You beat me to it. :-)

[emesbee]

Yes you're right, but I guess what I don't understand is the group simply preferring digital to vinyl purely on the belief that the digital is more accurate. eg the cheap CDP or iPhone over any record player rubbish etc.....which was arrived at purely because that person perceives that something more accurate will sound better........I've got news for him! I guess I'm just old fashioned and prefer to judge my music by the sound quality and not necessarily stick with a format simply because it measures more accurately.

Cheers,

Keith

On that I will broadly agree, except to add that the way we judge sound quality in this context is subjective, and will therefore vary from person to person. On that basis, I generally prefer digital to vinyl in my system.