Integrated Amplifier suggestions? Upgrading an older amp..

[Hoecakes1]

Hi all,

 

Have now had my system for a couple of years, I have a Marantz PM-75 amp powering a pair of PMC twenty.23 speakers in a room roughly 4mx3.6m. This is a system used for both HT and Music. I'm looking for any additional detail/clarity and/or bass assistance, Im looking at either;

 

- Upgrading amp (no clue about this as I haven't a/b'd another amp with these speakers, when I bought them they were powered by a Luxman amp which sounded nice

- Buying a sub although a PB1000 Pro is the biggest I'll go

- + some room management (hidden/aesthetically pleasing)

 

I do like my system at the moment but know there could be some improvements. My speakers are on carpet, with one window behind the couch and on the right in the way of a sliding door, have roller blinds.

 

Not sure what I'm asking for but keen to hear thoughts on what I can do in a reasonable budget. 

[$piro]

I’m surprised  some of the elders havnt tended to your enquiry already but I’ll make a start and ask you what you are using as a source. A streamer ? CD player ? Vinyl ? If you’re chasing detail and clarity I suspect you will need to start here. You’re electronics need to be able to retrieve those details in order for them to be reproduced.  In my humble system my streamer is the crown jewel. It gives my old amplifier a really good signal to amplify.  You’re speakers are reputable and should handle your room size well.  More bass can always be acquired later. 

[buddyev]

My view is to get the fundamentals right first - that to me means amp and speakers. If you’re happy with the sonic signature of your speakers the next best bang for buck is a high quality and appropriately  powered amp.
 

Even if you have a magnificent source your system will sound crap through poor amplification / speakers.

Conversely, if the amp and speakers are right, even an ordinary source will probably sound good. 
 

what is your budget?

Edited June 21, 2021 by buddyev

[cafe67]

Agreed need know budget. 

[Cafad]

Wow!  The old Marantz with the TDA1541A based DAC built in.  Don't see or hear of many of those.  One of the first integrated amps to have a DAC installed in it, way ahead of its time.  You've got a little piece of amplifier history there.  I'm not saying it's worth a great deal or anything, just that it's historically significant if you ever decide to dig in to the history of who made what when and the evolution of integrated amps.  A nice little piece of nostalgia.

 

Now, getting down to business, since the amp is a bit on the older side and its power supply seems a little light for a quoted 100wpc a replacement amp that gives you a bit more punch and depth to the bass shouldn't be too difficult to find.  

 

Without knowing your budget I can only tentatively suggest this from the classifieds.  Tons of power, more treble energy than the typical Marantz sound and it has a decent bass management system to, so it looks like a good unit for consideration at any rate.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Cafad

[Hoecakes1]

Ok so I gave up on this thread due to no replies haha, but will update with findings thus far and what I've been advised;

 

- Source is headphone out jack from and LG C8 OLED, which I have been advised is poor and unsure why I did choose this over optical a couple years back when I first set the TV up.. already know the solution to that - optical I/O

 

- I did purchase an SVS SB1000 Pro which I have now placed where I want it and am very happy with what it adds to the setup, I have them crossed over at 60hz and I find it adds the 10% of low-and I was missing

 

- So next dilemma is optical feeding in to the Marantz, due to the mixed respond i've read online about the DAC internally, I'd be more comfortable at least trying a newer affordable DAC (MODI 3?) to hopefully see a difference

 

- The amplifier I have now seems powerful, not in the market to spend 2k which i feel is neeeded to rival what i have now?

 

- On-top of all of this I have moved the speakers out from the wall an extra few inches and this I feel like has made a big difference to clarity and soundstage my god.. still want to try the DAC tho and be open to suggestions

[pezzy]

can also look into topping for dacs. anything at or under 5/50 series. they are generally a few hundred bucks or less and pop up in the for sale section quite often.

[surprisetech]

45 minutes ago, Hoecakes1 said:

 

- So next dilemma is optical feeding in to the Marantz, due to the mixed respond i've read online about the DAC internally, I'd be more comfortable at least trying a newer affordable DAC (MODI 3?) to hopefully see a difference

 

Within the limits of it's sampling rates (32, 44.1 or 48kHz) you should find that the inbuilt DAC is quite good.

The PM-75 uses the same 'selected' grade TDA1541A chip as some of the higher end Marantz CD Players of the time. e.g. CD-60.

Not suggesting you shouldn't try an external DAC, but in the meantime, you should get a Toslink cable and get the optical connection into service!

PM-75 is a nice amp with pretty decent headroom.

I happily lived with a PM-65AV (75WRMS/Ch) & CD-50 combo, purchased new, for about a dozen years.  CD-50 used the same DAC chip, but one grade below yours.

[RCAJack]

2 hours ago, Hoecakes1 said:

Source is headphone out jack from and LG C8 OLED

 

You need that optical cable STAT! For about $10 it should be the best value update in history.
 

What service are you using to stream your music from the TV? Spotify? Trying a ‘lossless’ service could be interesting for comparison, eg Apple Music.

 

 

[Hoecakes1]

How much quality could I really be losing from headphone out to optical change? I'm going to do it regardless, but I can't figure if I need a DAC or not. 

 

Also if I do get a DAC the Marantz effectively becomes a power amp? I'm unsure how to rate the amp but I do find I barely turn it past 11 on the dial, and the PMC's do sound real nice through Spotify even with headphone out jack on my OLED

[pezzy]

in your case, it should make at least a significant difference. with headphone out, you are essentially using the tv's inbuilt dac to feed an analog signal to the amp. i would imagine this to be a poor analog signal. with optical out, you are sending out a digital signal to the marantz where its dac is a respectable chip viewed as a delicacy in the audiophile world.

the difference is, do you want a tv with cheap parts mixing your signal or a well regarded amp with quality parts to mix your signal.

 

and yeah, a separate dac would mean your marantz becomes like a pre/power amp combo. it will become like your tv where you're feeding the amp an analog signal. in this case, it will still be better than using your tv as source. although hearing the difference in the case of tv optical out vs external dac, im not sure if that would be as clear as night and day.

[surprisetech]

45 minutes ago, Hoecakes1 said:

How much quality could I really be losing from headphone out to optical change? I'm going to do it regardless, but I can't figure if I need a DAC or not. 

 

Also if I do get a DAC the Marantz effectively becomes a power amp? I'm unsure how to rate the amp but I do find I barely turn it past 11 on the dial, and the PMC's do sound real nice through Spotify even with headphone out jack on my OLED

 

Dynamic range & S/N Ratio in the analogue audio circuits of TVs is typically pretty ordinary.  Depending on the product, frequency response & distortion can also be pretty average.  Better to take the digital signal from the TV and do the D/A conversion & buffering outside the TV.

 

Also, headphone outputs are usually just tapped off the amplifier output with a resistor to reduce the signal to a suitable level for headphones.  This is done so that the TVs volume control also controls the headphone output level.  So it is not a proper line level output and introduces a lot of unnecessary circuitry between the TVs DAC and your amps input.

 

The PMC speakers in combination with the sub are a pretty efficient combo.  The PM-75 should be fine.

[Hoecakes1]

Alright looks like I'll be taking the TV off the wall and using an optical to connect to the amp! Might hold off then on using an external DAC.. unfortunately due to space my sub is sitting behind my front left PMC speaker with a quarter of the cabinet being blocked by the speaker.. does still aound really good tho which surprises me

[$piro]

I you are still hell-bent in getting an external DAC after you try the optical out then have a look at the new bluesound. It has a great DAC and hdmi e-arc which means you can control the volume of the marantz with the tv remote if your tv has hdmi ARC . I use the older model( 2i ) for music and for movies and it performs very well. If you can squeeze around $900 you will get gains. I’m about to pull the trigger on one myself .

[RCAJack]

While the TV is off the wall, it’d be worth taking some measurements to see if a straight optical cable or a right-angle optical cable is a better fit with your mounting situation. The right angles cost a little more AFAICT but will one fit into the inset socket panel on your TV? 

[Irek]

For a maximum detail/clarity you might want to try Rega ( class AB amp, can be too hot sometimes), Primare i25 (class D, very neutral, can be too clinical sometimes), March audio power amp + stereo coffee preamp or Topping pre90 ( similar to Primare for less or better depends on particular amp). 

[Hoecakes1]

In addition to the optical change, weighing up another addition as well - a second subwoofer. BUT running off my current integrated amp. Can I run my SVS SB1000 Pro subwoofer off the left output and a Klipsch 10 inch sub off the right output? The SVS will be next to my left floorstander and the Klipsch will be on the left of my sitting position.. thoughts?

[Irek]

Set up position of subwoofers by crawling method. 

Get umik + REW, there are tutorials on youtube of how to set up crossovers with REW measurements. 

It might happen that the better subwoofer will be enough. Most of the time 2 subs are better but it usually means 2 identical subs. 

[cafe67]

Getting a decent optical will yield much better results. Do this first then start looking at other goodies.you are hobbling the system from the start. You don’t need to spend heaps, give it a go first then if you are happy maybe look at a better cable. 

[Hoecakes1]

Ok so to my ears this is amazing. The clarity and soundstage I've gained with optical and using the DAC within the Marantz is crazy. I've never heard my system sound better especially with the subwoofer added. Wow. I still think another sub would assist with furthering the sense of feeling of punch in my chest.. I think I have achieved the bump I was looking for.

[Hoecakes1]

The sub is tho causing a very slight rattle which is audible on some bass notes on the closest adjacent wall.. thoughts on how to fix?

[cafe67]

37 minutes ago, Hoecakes1 said:

The sub is tho causing a very slight rattle which is audible on some bass notes on the closest adjacent wall.. thoughts on how to fix?

H Ave a isolating the sub from the floor, there’s some burning pads which are just the things . That’s a good cheap starter solution. 

[muon*]

Do you mean these?

 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-on-site-100-x-12-5mm-rubber-anti-vibration-mat-4-pack_p3961547

[Irek]

3 hours ago, Hoecakes1 said:

Ok so to my ears this is amazing. The clarity and soundstage I've gained with optical and using the DAC within the Marantz is crazy. I've never heard my system sound better especially with the subwoofer added. Wow. I still think another sub would assist with furthering the sense of feeling of punch in my chest.. I think I have achieved the bump I was looking for.

I think it's time to enjoy your system for a few months before spending any more money.  

[muon*]

On 22/06/2021 at 3:06 PM, surprisetech said:

The PM-75 uses the same 'selected' grade TDA1541A chip as some of the higher end Marantz CD Players of the time. e.g. CD-60.

Yes that unusual amp has a select Single Crown TDA1541A in it, although the CD-60 never did, and has a standard TDA1541A.

Need higher model Marantz players for a crown chip CD-80, CD-85 ect'. 

 

I never knew about this PM75 with the built in DAC, fascinating!