Listener fatigue

[mud_shark]

What does one look for in an amp to minimise listener fatigue?

[doogie44]

Could you post all the details of the fatiguing hi-fi system (and a bit about the room and listening preferences) first? Thanks

[mud_shark]

3 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

Could you post all the details of the fatiguing hi-fi system (and a bit about the room and listening preferences) first? Thank

It's more of a conceptual question. I keep reading reviews that say amp X  can be listened to for hours without listener fatigue.  So I'm looking to learn more about that (please and thank you)

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by mud_shark
See detail

[mbz]

Some say higher 3rd order harmonics (of the fundamental) others say higher IMD. It comes back to distortion, a bit of reading,

https://www.passdiy.com/project/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback

[awayward]

I think listener fatigue is very hard to define, but you certainly know it when it happens, and sometimes it is not obvious. Generally I’ve found that when you are in for a long session and you get to 2 hours or so and you have had enough, sometimes this is normal but if it happens sort of regularly I’d say it is listening fatigue. It’s a bit like when you have a mild headache and you listen to music and one hour in it is doing your head in, so you stop. I have no idea what the cause is but it is not desirable, some speaker cables I had once seemed to give me listener fatigue.

[Al.M]

There are many factors to consider, ready with the pillows, some of them are...

 

Different amps do appear to have sonic characters that lend themselves to be ‘fatiguing’ - too sharp sounding or tonally uneven, more distortion, too prominent midrange etc are what many might associate more with a fatiguing amp. Experiences of many seem to indicate tube amps are less fatiguing vs some solid state amps. There is no list of fatiguing amps except for random comments and reviews and you will have to decide for yourself by chasing down very subjective reviews and subjective comments with a pinch of salt and listening for yourself in your own room and gear.

 

Room acoustics can also completely change the way amps and speakers sound to the extent you may think you are listening to two completely different amps. In such cases it is not the amp’s fault.

 

Equipment matching is important much like cooking food one should not mix salty with salty, so in matching audio gear should not generally combine a sharp sound amp with a similar too sharp sound speaker as the result is too much. Instead generally combine opposing sounding gear to blend it well.

 

There is also the science of listener fatigue https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listener_fatigue

 

Modern noise regulations have also captured annoyance in something called the presence of tonality in noise pollution, defined as a difference of 3dB between one octave frequency and others below and above it or an average of say 8dB rise in the spectrum between frequencies. Human hearing is evolved for speech hence why we do not hear in a flat frequency curve, instead we hear in a bell shaped A-weighted curve peaking around 1-5khz so accentuated frequencies in that range can be perceived as annoying, particularly if it is unwanted noise. So I would argue that any audio gear, setup or room acoustics that accentuate or causes tonality issues should be considered as more annoying, less pleasurable and then potentially more fatiguing.

 

Hearing fatigue in sound can happen in the same way with other human pleasure senses like sight, gaming, smell and taste, arising from temporary chemical dopamine depletion in the brain as part of the pleasure reward system, and the whole sensory thing just gets tired out after too long enjoying it until the brain juices come back. 

 

Physiology biases, experience/learning, personal preferences and different hearing ability among young, old or part deaf among us play into it as well with some people liking sharp detailed sound quality vs more mellow sound for others. Your perception of fatigue might be mine of highly detailed and accurate.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Al.M

[MaxPlumage]

This is a great topic. I find that for me the sweetspot is about 45 minutes of listening after which fatigue starts.

 

I also find that the higher the dynamic range, the longer I can listen to music. YMMV.

 

Oddly enough I don't think anyone complains about listener fatigue when watching movies on HT though - wonder why.

Edited February 6, 2021 by MaxPlumage

[keyse1]

On 05/02/2021 at 6:42 PM, mud_shark said:

It's more of a conceptual question. I keep reading reviews that say amp X  can be listened to for hours without listener fatigue.  So I'm looking to learn more about that (please and thank you)

 

Probably no such thing

I listen for hours on end

Or an hour or so

Seems unlikely that a stereo system would sound incredible on Monday and dull on Tuesday 

I think the problem is listening to dreadful records

10 minutes of Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd would have me turning off the stereo very quickly 

Probably why I don’t have records by them

[LHC]

13 minutes ago, keyse1 said:

Seems unlikely that a stereo system would sound incredible on Monday and dull on Tuesday 

Toole's research showed this may be a possibility for people with significant hearing problems. 

[stereo coffee]

On 05/02/2021 at 8:24 PM, mud_shark said:

What does one look for in an amp to minimise listener fatigue?

The simplicity /elegance /purity/  of audio input,  to audio output. 

 

 

[Guest]

I think a system that displays timing issues (ie phase) and/or too strong a treble response can become "fatiguing" in a short space of time. For me that manifests in my attention wandering and boredom.

[Al.M]

2 hours ago, LHC said:

Toole's research showed this may be a possibility for people with significant hearing problems. 

Also, beyond the brain pleasure dopamine thing ones mental alertness and mood varies throughout the day and from day to day, week to week and onwards in terms of desire to want to listen to things, which are affected by fluctuating personal health, biology and psychology over periods.

 

Other posts discussed whether physical conditions in the room change enough to make the system sound different like air humidity and temperature affecting sound transmission (negligable) and mains power supply fluctuations from day to day.

[Whites]

Personally I find systems that are bright cause me to have listener fatigue and also when music is played higher than my comfort level. This in reality doesn't mean the system is too bright, it's just me.

 

I have noticed that I am sensitive to bright sounds in general, so I agree with previous comments that your own hearing function/capabilities are a factor.

[Al.M]

To expand on my earlier post about the noise regulations definition of annoyance, there are also two other characteristics defined and legislated for which are the presence of modulation and impulsiveness in the sound that causes additional noise impact.

 

Modulation is like constant waves and fluctuation in the sound like for example a siren or a house alarm and causes extra annoyance.

 

Impulsiveness is large noise peak fluctuations like that in a construction pile driver or rock breaker, a difference of more than 12dB between the average sound level and the peak/s.

 

When you have any or all of the above going on in a noise/sound source each one attracts a +5dB penalty to the average noise level being measured. So for example, the noise/sound is measured average at 55 dB one must add a penalty of anywhere between 5-15dB if either tonality, modulation and/or impulsiveness is detected so the final legal measured and adjusted noise can be as high as 70dB(A). The regulation standard might be that it should not go over something like 45dB(A) depending on location and time of day/night. The noise regulations stipulate that in terms of unwanted noise, music is to be assumed to automatically have both tonality and modulation and +10dB must always to added as penalty and impulsiveness must be proven to exist with measurements.

 

The above is not the total explanation of fatigue but it should probably be considered that when one has been listening for too long a period of time and your attention and enjoyment starts to waver you are probably entering the tipping point scenario from musical enjoyment to unwanted noise with tonality, modulation and impulsiveness, which most forms of music inherently contain and starts to become fatiguing.

 

Certain types of music, loudness levels and duration of listening will likely contribute to more fatigue or noise annoyance such as music with prominent midrange like heavy metal/grunge, impulsive bass doof doof dance techno, certain types of high pictured voices and instruments etc. Smoother, even handed and less complex music is toterated for longer and less offensive. Loudness levels also play a big role in fatigue or annoyance and personally I find levels approaching 80-90dB(A)+ plus start to make the ears flinch which is also a hearing science fact see here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/protect.html

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Al.M

[xlr8or]

Listener fatigue was a big thing for me 13 or so years ago when I started to venture into many speaker designs utilising non silk dome tweeter and non paper based driver set-ups that were also coupled to SS amps. The journey started to change for me when I converted over to valve amps and the use of paper doped drivers in floorstanders and bookshelves.

 

Aluminium. composite, polymer etc. based woofers and ceramic, magnesium, titanium, etc based tweeters really did my head in after 15-45 minutes listening. I would walk out of the many auditions that I had prearranged at Audio Connection with a ringing headache and ear throbbing reminder a few hours later that left an unpleasant reminder in my head of how bright, glared, edged and etched the sound was. The mellowing out was simply absent. It never arrived. It felt like I was forced to listen to the music, when I didn't want to be there. I would get excited driving in thinking yep today is the day and then leave disappointed and unsatisfied. It was difficult to say 'laterz' to the audio consultant only 15 min in.

 

I really think that the speaker topology and the use of different driver and cabinet materials has a large play here in contributing to listener fatigue perhaps more so than the amp.

Edited February 7, 2021 by xlr8or

[audiofeline]

I noticed it once very prominently, but with a software issue rather than hardware.

 

I bought a few CDs of 1930/40's jazz.  Put one CD, the music was great but I was fatigued by the 30min mark.  I persisted listening to the CD, but it took a lot of effort.  Thinking it was myself that was fatigued, I thought I would end the music session, but wanted to taste a minute or two of the other CD.  That minute turned into a very enjoyable hour.  Then I looked at the covers.  The first CD was horribly mastered with NoNoise or Cedar noise reduction.  The second CD was mastered by someone who always does extremely tasteful work (John RT Davies).  It was then very clear why I hated listening to the first CD and enjoyed the second so much. 

CDs that have been mastered with a lot of compression does it to me as well - there is no space for the music to breathe.

 

So I would extrapolate that a similar thing would occur with the hardware.  I certainly find boomy speakers fatiguing, but fortunately haven't heard any like that for a very long time.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by audiofeline

[MattyW]

On 05/02/2021 at 6:23 PM, awayward said:

I think listener fatigue is very hard to define, but you certainly know it when it happens, and sometimes it is not obvious. Generally I’ve found that when you are in for a long session and you get to 2 hours or so and you have had enough, sometimes this is normal but if it happens sort of regularly I’d say it is listening fatigue. It’s a bit like when you have a mild headache and you listen to music and one hour in it is doing your head in, so you stop. I have no idea what the cause is but it is not desirable, some speaker cables I had once seemed to give me listener fatigue.

 

I've certainly had speaker cables and RCA leads which caused it, ditto certain speakers or amps, some sources or even the wrong tube combination in a given component. Heck the wrong capacitors etc will do ut too. It can be introduced anywhere in the sound chain. The system is only as good as its weakest link.

 

7 hours ago, Whites said:

Personally I find systems that are bright cause me to have listener fatigue and also when music is played higher than my comfort level. This in reality doesn't mean the system is too bright, it's just me.

 

I have noticed that I am sensitive to bright sounds in general, so I agree with previous comments that your own hearing function/capabilities are a factor.

 

Aye, I tend to prefer a system with a hint of warmth to the sound. Makes it far easier to listen to.  I'm not talking thick, guey overly warm sound as that kills transparency and insight into the mix.

 

12 minutes ago, audiofeline said:

I noticed it once very prominently, but with a software issue rather than hardware.

 

I bought a few CDs of 1930/40's jazz.  Put one CD, the music was great but I was fatigued by the 30min mark.  I persisted listening to the CD, but it took a lot of effort.  Thinking it was myself that was fatigued, I thought I would end the music session, but wanted to taste a minute or two of the other CD.  That minute turned into a very enjoyable hour.  Then I looked at the covers.  The first CD was horribly mastered with NoNoise or Cedar noise reduction.  The second CD was mastered by someone who always does extremely tasteful work (John RT Davies).  It was then very clear why I hated listening to the first CD and enjoyed the second so much. 

 

So I would extrapolate that a similar thing would occur with the hardware.  I certainly find boomy speakers fatiguing, but fortunately haven't heard any like that for a very long time.

 

 

 

Yeah, quite often it can be in the music itself due to the mixing board used, or microphones.  One example off the top of my head is "You've lost that loving feeling" by the "Righteous Brothers" . It sounds like there's some sort of phase issue going on with the microphone on vocals. Still,  I love the song and enjoy it anyway.

[LogicprObe]

 

A lot of stuff already covered but as you get older the actual volume seems to get to me.

(I do like it loud)

[MattyW]

On 07/02/2021 at 9:36 PM, LogicprObe said:

 

A lot of stuff already covered but as you get older the actual volume seems to get to me.

(I do like it loud)

 

I've found that as my system improved over the years the sound doesn't change much once I surpass the volume I normally talk at so there's just no benefit. I came to realize many moons ago that I equated distortion with loud. I sort of had to retrain myself to hear distortion and try eliminate it from my system where possible. 

 

That said I've no problem with an amp with plenty of 2nd order harmonics. I rather like tubes and amps designed by Nelson Pass 

Edited February 10, 2021 by MattyW
dyslexic response

[maximus]

For what I've experienced, I'd say the major culprit would be compressed CD's. Won't take long on any system for fatigue to

set in if the recording is ordinary. If well recorded, all reasonable hi fi should sound at least good and exceptional on a top end

system.

Speakers too can be an issue, of the 22 pairs I've owned,  Paradigm S8/ Monitor audio Gold's/ Pioneer S1-EX were absolute

ear bleeders......SHOCKING, says something about early Beryllium and Metal tweeter designs....YUCK.  

[andyr]

7 minutes ago, maximus said:

 

Speakers too can be an issue, of the 22 pairs I've owned,  Paradigm S8/ Monitor audio Gold's/ Pioneer S1-EX were absolute

ear bleeders......SHOCKING, says something about early Beryllium and Metal tweeter designs....YUCK.  

 

 

What a very different listening experience to my own, m.    Magnepans - with the 'true ribbon' tweeter - since about 1995 ... absolutely no listener fatigue!

 

Andy

 

[andyr]

On 08/02/2021 at 12:01 AM, MattyW said:

 

That said I've no problem with an amp with plenty of 3rd order harmonics. I rather like tubes and amps designed by Nelson Pass 

 

 

Are you sure you mean '3rd order harmonics', Matt?  

 

I thought tubes delivered high H2 - and NP made sure his (ss) Class A designs had plenty of that!  

 

Andy

 

[Al.M]

33 minutes ago, maximus said:

ear bleeders......SHOCKING, says something about early Beryllium and Metal tweeter designs....YUCK.  

With the early berylliums (Yamaha NS1000 speakers) it is well known that incorrectly matched solid state amps were the problem such as matching nasally sounding early Naim amps, cheap integrateds etc. Tube amps were found to be the solution, although the sound still remained sharp but ultra detailed. 

 

Many modern speakers can still be made to sound fatiguing if incorrectly amp matched or badly designed crossover, regardless of driver dome or cone materials used.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Al.M

[andyr]

2 minutes ago, Al.M said:

 

With the early berylliums (Yamaha NS1000 speakers) it is well known that incorrectly matched solid state amps were the problem such as matching nasally sounding early Naim amps, cheap integrateds etc. Tube amps were found to be the solution, although the sound still remained sharp but ultra detailed. 

 

 

Are you saying, Al.M, that Yamaha produced spkrs that did not sound good with their own (ss, low distortion = high GNFB!) amps?

 

Sacre blue!  

 

Andy

 

[maximus]

36 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

What a very different listening experience to my own, m.    Magnepans - with the 'true ribbon' tweeter - since about 1995 ... absolutely no listener fatigue!

 

Andy

 

Maggies, well designed and unpretentious Andy..