Almaz Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 I mainly listen to vinyl or CDs, or when I’m lazy, or think I might fall asleep late at night I will stream. I am very happy with the music options I have, especially since I have included SACDs into my playlist. I am wondering about FM as a form of musical entertainment. When I’m driving I nearly always listen to ABC Radio for the content and information. I very much enjoy the talkbacks on given topics. This aways broaden my knowledge on topics I would have not normally been interested in. Is it worth investing in a good outside FM antenna ? Obviously depending on my choice of receiver? Will I obtain quality musical enjoyment from FM? How will it sound as opposed to streaming? I am aware that I can listen to FM using my streaming app. Is there a difference between this and using a quality receiver?
Ian McP Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 The beauty of FM is the vast range of music that is already curated by avid (volunteers in the main) announcers. I've been a listener to community stations such as 3CR, 3PBS and 3RRR here in Melbourne for nigh on fifty years. My knowledge of acts has expanded exponentially solely due to these stations. Analog FM is still superior to DAB but you'll need a good antenna. Then again the sources they use nowadays the difference is mostly academic. The important thing always to remember is the quality of the music overrides the quality of the sound. Most radio stations also stream and many archive their programs for later listening on demand. regards Ian 6 1 1
davm Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 (edited) Depending on your taste and where you live FM can still offer an excellent quality listening option. Personally, I think the quality of FM broadcasts are superior to the their streamed offerings. Most FM stations here in Australia have fairly low bandwidth digital streams and I think I can hear the difference. I live in Melbourne and my listening is either ABC Classic FM or some non-commercial stations like 3MBS, 3RRR and 3PBS. They have music I enjoy as well as good quality broadcasts. On the other hand, the commercial FM stations don't sound nearly as good to my ears and I'm less interested in the music they play. I use a high quality FM tuner (Audiolab 8000T) and a dedicated external FM antenna and I'm very happy with the quality of the sound. However, I note your location is Coffs Harbour so I'm not sure what's available to you on FM. You can pick up a Denon TU1500 tuner second-hand for not much money. Be sure to not buy a Japanese or American version as they won't work properly here in Australia. Edited March 22, 2024 by davm grammar 3 1
Steff Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, davm said: I live in Melbourne and my listening is either ABC Classic FM or some non-commercial stations like 3MBS, 3RRR and 3PBS. They have music I enjoy as well as good quality broadcasts. IMO lo-fi has its place in listening habits. At times it's soothing to switch from high resolution to gentler whatsits in the background. Particularly for exploratory listening. ps. @davm love the Dr Leo Specimen avatar Edited March 22, 2024 by Steff
MLXXX Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 45 minutes ago, Almaz said: Is it worth investing in a good outside FM antenna ? Obviously depending on my choice of receiver? Will I obtain quality musical enjoyment from FM? How will it sound as opposed to streaming? I've noticed that modern FM tuners/receivers can deliver a pretty good audio signal to noise ratio even with a weak signal. In the past, an outside antenna was needed to avoid distracting hiss. If you are not too far from an FM transmitter you might be able to get away without an exterior FM antenna. Another option to consider is connecting to an existing external TV antenna. Even if not optimised for the FM band it may give enough signal for a modern receiver to work with. Streaming will give an extremely good SNR (no audible hiss) but as others have commented the audio quality in other respects will typically not be all that good because of the typical use of limited bitrates. DAB+ radio in Australia typically suffers in the same way. However some DAB+ stations offer much higher than usual bitrates and can equal or exceed FM radio subjective sound quality. 1 1
surprisetech Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 2 hours ago, Almaz said: I mainly listen to vinyl or CDs, or when I’m lazy, or think I might fall asleep late at night I will stream. I am very happy with the music options I have, especially since I have included SACDs into my playlist. I am wondering about FM as a form of musical entertainment. When I’m driving I nearly always listen to ABC Radio for the content and information. I very much enjoy the talkbacks on given topics. This aways broaden my knowledge on topics I would have not normally been interested in. Is it worth investing in a good outside FM antenna ? Obviously depending on my choice of receiver? Will I obtain quality musical enjoyment from FM? How will it sound as opposed to streaming? I am aware that I can listen to FM using my streaming app. Is there a difference between this and using a quality receiver? Comparison to streaming is very much dependent on the streaming service, bitrate, format, bandwidth, etc. and can be better or worse than FM. Higher end digital synthesized tuners can be picked up 2nd hand for peanuts now, so it's a great time to be taking an interest. Do look for something with wide/narrow IF switching, as the wide mode provides better reproduction on stations with a strong signal. Tuners with that feature are typically at the higher end, so also have more sensitive front-ends, and better demodulators and output stages. A good antenna helps but doesn't normally need to be anything too fancy. If the simple dipole antenna that comes with most tuners is not adequate, then older TV antennae that include the longer elements for VHF band II (Channels 3 to 5a) are very good. The FM band is in the middle of that range. You can also make a very effective (& cheap) full-wave or half-wave folded dipole antenna using 300 ohm ribbon cable. When I'm on the back deck on a Saturday evening with the BBQ going and RRR's Babylon Burning playing from an Onkyo T-4700 tuner through a Rotel RA-970BX to my DIY 2-ways, all is well with the world! 1 hour ago, Ian McP said: The beauty of FM is the vast range of music that is already curated by avid (volunteers in the main) announcers. I've been a listener to community stations such as 3CR, 3PBS and 3RRR here in Melbourne for nigh on fifty years. My knowledge of acts has expanded exponentially solely due to these stations. Analog FM is still superior to DAB but you'll need a good antenna. Then again the sources they use nowadays the difference is mostly academic. The important thing always to remember is the quality of the music overrides the quality of the sound. Most radio stations also stream and many archive their programs for later listening on demand. regards Ian +1 Ian and I have a lot in common in this area! 1
Cloth Ears Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 Where we are (south of Mornington) listening to DAB on the car radio can give you digititus (where the sound is constantly disappearing and reappearing). Whereas the FM signal is always there, if not the best quality. I generally don't listen to radio on other occasions - but in the car it can be distracting to decide what to listen to. 1
MLXXX Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 1 minute ago, Cloth Ears said: Where we are (south of Mornington) listening to DAB on the car radio can give you digititus (where the sound is constantly disappearing and reappearing). Whereas the FM signal is always there, if not the best quality. I generally don't listen to radio on other occasions - but in the car it can be distracting to decide what to listen to. Around town (in Brisbane) I find car radio FM a better experience than DAB+ for a DAB+ service bitrate around 64kbps nominal and definitely better than DAB+ at 48kbs nominal. Having said that, there are times when multipath reception severely compromises the FM reception quality. Out on the highway at greater distances from transmitters hiss increasingly becomes an issue with car radio FM but as you say there is not the problem of sudden complete muting which happens with DAB+ when the signal strength falls below a critical level. 1 hour ago, surprisetech said: Comparison to streaming is very much dependent on the streaming service, bitrate, format, bandwidth, etc. and can be better or worse than FM. There are certainly some excellent streaming stations available for audio quality. Some very high bitrates and/or very efficient codecs. However where an FM radio service in Australia is also available via internet streaming I've found that the bitrate and codec in combination are typically not able to provide as good audio quality as that obtainable from an FM tuner. 1
georgehifi Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 (edited) 3 hours ago, MLXXX said: However some DAB+ stations offer much higher than usual bitrates and can equal or exceed FM radio subjective sound quality. If both formats are perfect in reception "signal strength" give me DAB+ any day over FM, it just sound better, wider/higher/deeper sound stage, cleaner, better bass/highs and dynamics, especially ABC-Classic, I have it on all day, it's got the highest bit rate of 120kbps of all DAB+ stations. From radio.co: As a good rule of thumb, refer to this: "16kbps: Spoken word 32kbps: Talk show 48kbps: AM radio 64kbps: FM radio 96kbps: Near CD quality 128kbps: DAB quality 192kbps: CD quality 256kbps: Studio quality 320kbps: Pro quality" https://radio.co/blog/best-radio-station-bitrate#:~:text=48kbps%3A AM radio,96kbps%3A Near CD quality Cheers George Edited March 22, 2024 by georgehifi 1 1
MLXXX Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, georgehifi said: especially ABC-Classic, I have it on all day, it's got the highest bit rate of 120kbps of all DAB+ stations. ABC Classic for many years was at only 80kbps, but part of that nominal 80kbps was set aside for data for the slide show that some DAB+ radios are able to display. The HE-AAC codec provided a clean sound but of course left out certain detail, which is what psychoacoustic codecs do. The higher the bitrate, the less such a codec leaves out. People vary greatly in their subjective responses. For my hearing, 80kbps (nominal) was not good enough for classical music. It robbed violins and certain vocalists of beauty and excitement. A bit of background hiss and a bit of THD/IMD with FM radio reception were small prices to pay, for me. A 120kbps (nominal) rate is a huge step up. It means that SBR (spectral band replication: bursts of artificial treble) is not needed, just the normal AAC codec can be used. I strongly applaud the decision that was taken to increase the bitrate of ABC Classic. So I'd be inclined to agree that ABC Classic at 120kbps (nominal) could indeed compare quite favourably with the sound from an FM tuner. However I note it would still be less than YouTube audio quality. (I think YouTube have the right compromise - around 130kbps (actual, not nominal) with an efficient codec. The difference between that and lossless is very slight indeed; inaudible for some listeners.) As for 64kbps DAB+ radio in Australia, I hear too many sprays of treble (e.g. when a commentator speaks), and too much loss of body and vitality in the overall sound. It is good enough for talk back radio, marginal for rock music, and seriously lacking for classical music. That's for my ears. Edited March 22, 2024 by MLXXX 1
Almaz Posted March 22, 2024 Author Posted March 22, 2024 Would something like this be good? It does receive good reviews.
georgehifi Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 (edited) 34 minutes ago, MLXXX said: I strongly applaud the decision that was taken to increase the bitrate of ABC Classic. So do I, as you can "clearly hear a small but instantly noticeable difference" switching from the 120kbps of ABC-Classic down to ABC-Jazz at 88kpbs and a more difference again down to 64kpbs for 2MBS Fine Music. Cheers George Edited March 22, 2024 by georgehifi 1
surprisetech Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 53 minutes ago, georgehifi said: If both formats are perfect in reception "signal strength" give me DAB+ any day over FM, it just sound better, wider/higher/deeper sound stage, cleaner, better bass/highs and dynamics, especially ABC-Classic, I have it on all day, it's got the highest bit rate of 120kbps of all DAB+ stations. From radio.co: As a good rule of thumb, refer to this: "16kbps: Spoken word 32kbps: Talk show 48kbps: AM radio 64kbps: FM radio 96kbps: Near CD quality 128kbps: DAB quality 192kbps: CD quality 256kbps: Studio quality 320kbps: Pro quality" https://radio.co/blog/best-radio-station-bitrate#:~:text=48kbps%3A AM radio,96kbps%3A Near CD quality Cheers George Hmmm. It's a pretty good article overall to help people get their head around the topic, but I would regard the "rule of thumb" list as a very rough, biased guide at best when you look at the context of the article that it comes from. The whole list is a bit iffy, but there are some obvious red flags. - A number of different codecs are used for internet radio, which vary in their efficiency. Which one is this list based on? - "DAB quality" means nothing, because DAB stations can be broadcast at a wide range of bitrates. - If 192kbps is "CD quality", how can half that bitrate (96), be "Near CD Quality"? - Can any lossy codec seriously be put forward as "Studio" or "Pro" quality. 3
surprisetech Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 42 minutes ago, Almaz said: Would something like this be good? It does receive good reviews. Only if you're trying to address a specific problem further down the track. If you want to give FM a go, get one of the better standalone component tuners first and see how you go with the standard antenna or a TV antenna. If the signal strength for the stations you want is healthy, then you'll be fine. A word of caution: Best to avoid DAB+/FM Tuners unless it's just for background music. The vast majority of DAB+/FM tuners, even from the reputable brands that made great FM tuners, cannot compete with the later AM/FM synthesized tuners for FM sensitivity, selectivity and sound quality. This is because the FM tuner is part of the OEM DAB module that is used in these products. The convenience of just using the FM facility in the DAB module far outweighs the cost of a dedicated FM tuner board in an era when there is far less demand for FM quality. 1
Juzbear Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 No one buys FM tuners much anymore and hence you can pick up a second hand one of good quality (if you look around) for less than the cost of a new vinyl record. If it doesn’t have an antenna, you can pick up one from Jaycar- an inside one may well be all you need. If you like classical music or a mix of talk and music, like on ABC stations, FM radio is pretty great. The community stations in the capitals are another big draw card, though I am not sure what would be available to you locally. All that said, I have a Sansui “super tuner” Tu-X1, and constantly to and fro about whether I should sell it, and just shut up and stream everything, as it is undoubtedly getting better over time. I haven’t been able to yet, despite it taking up a huge chunk of real estate, as it just sounds great (and looks great, with its lit up frequency and signal strength). Maybe one day. 3
audiofeline Posted March 22, 2024 Posted March 22, 2024 I have always put a splitter on the TV antenna and obtained good FM reception (in Melbourne) on my tunwe. I have read that an antenna specifically designed for FM radio is better than using the one for TV; I never felt the need to go that far. 10 hours ago, surprisetech said: ...A good antenna helps but doesn't normally need to be anything too fancy. If the simple dipole antenna that comes with most tuners is not adequate, then older TV antennae that include the longer elements for VHF band II (Channels 3 to 5a) are very good. The FM band is in the middle of that range. You can also make a very effective (& cheap) full-wave or half-wave folded dipole antenna using 300 ohm ribbon cable... What are the newer TV antennas like for FM radio in Melbourne? I'm about to update my TV antenna (which has a sticker on it saying it's good for colour and B+W TV, which is an indication of it's age). Will a splitter on a new TV antenna be a viable option for the FM tuner? 1
Almaz Posted March 22, 2024 Author Posted March 22, 2024 Thank you for all the feedback very informative. I have to be completely honest, I wasn’t even aware of DAB+. I am now after doing quite a bit of research. I know it’s a lot of money for a Radio antenna but I have decided to give the ST-2 Magnum Dynalab a try. I do have a very good quality receiver, I’m hoping a good quality antenna will do it justice. I will report back on my findings using this antenna. Please keep the information coming, I have learned a lot about FM that has made me even more excited to give it a go as a musical choice. Thank you. John 2
bob_m_54 Posted March 23, 2024 Posted March 23, 2024 Just get yourself a standard 3 element FM Yagi antenna, from you local TV antenna shop. I picked up one for under $80.00 from NAS Australia https://shop.nasaustralia.com.au/ANTFM3 fancy stainless one: https://zcg.com.au/product/fm-radio-3-element-scaled-yagi-304-stainless-steel-87-5-108-mhz-specify-4-mhz-1-21-vswr-250w-n-type-female-1-4m-cable-6-dbd-1-7m/ Matchmaster: https://www.matchmaster.com.au/digital-tv-antennas/03mm-fm3/ The Antenna Company: https://www.theantennacompany.com.au/shop/antennas-parts/fm-antennas/fm-antenna-88-108mhz-with-balun-3-elements/ 3
surprisetech Posted March 23, 2024 Posted March 23, 2024 19 hours ago, audiofeline said: What are the newer TV antennas like for FM radio in Melbourne? I'm about to update my TV antenna (which has a sticker on it saying it's good for colour and B+W TV, which is an indication of it's age). Will a splitter on a new TV antenna be a viable option for the FM tuner? Older TV antennae are usually better for FM as they include the VHF band II elements. New antennae tend to only have VHF band III & UHF elements, so not as good for FM, but OK for DAB which is mostly broadcast on 3 frequencies in the old channel 9 slot. 1 1
PicoWattson Posted March 23, 2024 Posted March 23, 2024 Sure, if you're close to a transmitter that sends the kind of airwaves you want to tune in to. For us regional listeners it's a dodo and streaming is King.
mharvan Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 (edited) FM? yes!!! Edited March 24, 2024 by mharvan 6
Steever Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 I still enjoy FM and I’m glad I decided to keep my Cyrus tuner. My listening is mainly to the two classical music stations available in Brisbane. Compared to DAB+, it’s got more air and sounds more open. DAB+ can sound a bit plastic and lifeless (an opinion arrived at through fairly unscientific comparisons). I enjoy streaming most of the time but the radio seems to add another dimension. Will you enjoy it? Only you can answer that really. Do use a quality external aerial (or a Terk indoor one) if you decide to give it a try. 2
grammefriday Posted March 31, 2024 Posted March 31, 2024 FM (or DAB+) is good provided you get good reception. I listen to community radio stations mainly as they are advertising free and I hear music that I wouldn't normally hear on commercial radio stations. 1
POV Posted April 1, 2024 Posted April 1, 2024 Ultimately I guess it depends on use case and situation. But in an era where we have almost limitless access to high res internet radio I don't really see much utility in traditional FM (or for that matter DAB+). I guess if you had no access to he intenret or had a particular aversion to internet streaming. My wife has a DAB+ radio in the kitchen that she uses to listen to Radio National, but even that is easy to stream...
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