Power cables - how to measure

[davewantsmoore]

14 minutes ago, Sime said:

Simply because they won’t disbelieve regardless of any proof or whatnot. 

Proof is a very very tricky word.     You won't find "proof" that "power cords make no difference"..... only experiments which fail to show that they do.   

[Assisi]

2 hours ago, allthumbs said:

If I was to purchase a recognized audiophile power cord for testing, I have one in mind, where would I be better off deploying the cable to get the most powerful impact as far as audibly hearing the difference in my system, would it be my integrated amplifier or my CD player?

I consider that audio quality power cables do provide a benefit to the listening experience.  With a single quality cable and when the rest are less quality, it can become a matter of the weakest link in the chain.  The impact of lesser quality cables may nullify or reduce the full potential benefit of the single better cable.

 

I would advise that you try to borrow rather than purchase a cable and try it connected to various components to determine for yourself whether there is benefit or not in your case and where the benefit is best.  Remember that a cable change probably will need time to settle before you decide the outcome.  If there is a benefit you will have to consider a long-term strategy to bring the entire power cable loom up to the same level.

John

[Stereophilus]

I’m going to quote John Darko here: 

 

“speculation is no substitute for experience; that curiosity is what pushes us to experience new things; and that without curiosity we’d just dig ourselves ever deeper into the trenches of our preconceptions and prejudice.”

 

What I see in the subject line of this thread is curiosity.  Unfortunately what I see scattered through subsequent pages is a lot of speculation without experience.

 

I don’t want to speak for @rmpfyf but I think anyone posting here to dig in their preconceptions deeper is lacking the required curiosity to further this thread.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Stereophilus

[Marc]

7 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

What I see in the subject line of this thread is curiosity.  Unfortunately what I see scattered through subsequent pages is a lot of speculation without experience.

 

^^^ This ^^^

[MLXXX]

On 10/10/2020 at 1:25 PM, MLXXX said:

I'll try to set aside time to test my Behringer interface to see how consistent it can be. 

Am pleased to report that my Behringer FCA1616 does appear to clock its inputs (its ADCs)  in sync with its outputs (its DACs).  

 

Audio cable was used to connect between one of the FCA1616's analogue outputs and one of its analogue inputs.  DAW software then looped the playback of a 20 second glide tone directed to  the relevant output, with recording activated for the relevant input, such that 10 takes were recorded one after the other.

 

All 10 takes (at 48kHz 24 bits) were found to be in exact sync with each other when reviewed later (using Audacity). By that I do not mean simply that the takes were time aligned. They were actually phase aligned.

 

This morning I tried a similar test. This time the optical output of the audio interface was connected to the optical input of an old receiver, a Yamaha HTR-5750; and an audio cable took the signal from one channel of the headphone socket of the receiver to one of the inputs of the audio interface. Comparing the takes I found they were all aligned in phase with each other than a very slight discontinuity at the beginning of the playback.

 

This is great news to my mind. It appears I will be able to send consistent s/pdif signals to a device, and consistently record the resulting analogue output.

Edited October 16, 2020 by MLXXX

[Ittaku]

So am I to assume that means you'd prefer that on this forum that anyone who asks for a power cable recommendation is not allowed to be exposed to my opinion? And you'd rather one of the few scientists on this forum did not participate on a thread attempting to perform science because my own hypothesis disagrees with the subjective collective? Fine by me.

[allthumbs]

I am absolutely OK with @ittaku's opinion/advice.  There is nothing offensive in it at all. 

 

 

 

 

[Marc]

18 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

So am I to assume that means you'd prefer that on this forum that anyone who asks for a power cable recommendation is not allowed to be exposed to my opinion? And you'd rather one of the few scientists on this forum did not participate on a thread attempting to perform science because my own hypothesis disagrees with the subjective collective? Fine by me.

No not at all. Advice and opinions is what makes StereoNET what it is. The above were all your words and not for a moment suggested by me. I'm not looking for a fight mate and also don't want to take this topic further away from its intention.

 

My request was specifically for the purpose of this thread, as you have already completed your journey and have formulated your own outcome, why not let those that are interested to pursue their own outcome.

 

Frankly, I'm getting tired of the number of reports coming through about this particular thread. We're doing our best to allow it to continue for the betterment of all those that are genuinely interested. 

[MLXXX]

53 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

but I think anyone posting here to dig in their preconceptions deeper is lacking the required curiosity to further this thread.

 

On a related matter, I think  It is perfectly possible to assist with suggestions for a measurement protocol that will stand up to scrutiny, irrespective of one's personal views as to the likelihood of success.

 

For example, I'm quite happy to help with suggestions as to scenarios where I suspect a difference will be measurable (albeit somewhat extreme situations), and to assist with the measurement protocol not only for that scenario, but more generally. I can make suggestions about developing and refining a measurement protocol regardless of my personal opinions as to whether "power cords make a difference".

 

Cheers

 

 

 

@Marc, sorry this thread has been taking up a lot of moderator time!   

[rantan]

1 hour ago, Assisi said:

I consider that audio quality power cables do provide a benefit to the listening experience.  With a single quality cable and when the rest are less quality, it can become a matter of the weakest link in the chain.  The impact of lesser quality cables may nullify or reduce the full potential benefit of the single better cable.

 

 

 

I would advise that you try to borrow rather than purchase a cable and try it connected to various components to determine for yourself whether there is benefit or not in your case and where the benefit is best.  Remember that a cable change probably will need time to settle before you decide the outcome.  If there is a benefit you will have to consider a long-term strategy to bring the entire power cable loom up to the same level.

 

John

John.

I was admonished and reported by a thread participant for a three word post that was off topic because I was persuaded that this thread is nothing to do with power cords making an improvement (or not ).

I edited my post immediately and with deep respect, I suggest that your post is also significantly off topic.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

proof" that "power cords make no difference".

I never said that at all, I’m fully aware that you can’t prove a negative. 
 

Proof as that they do work is what I meant. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

What I see in the subject line of this thread is curiosity.  Unfortunately what I see scattered through subsequent pages is a lot of speculation without experience.

What I see is a group of exceptional audiophiles who can’t make their minds up that they do work. 
The debate within itself is the biggest clue to the question. 

[Assisi]

28 minutes ago, rantan said:

I suggest that your post is also significantly off topic

In what way?

[rantan]

7 minutes ago, Assisi said:

In what way?

Well, since you are asking, look a the thread title which is "Power cables-how to measure ".

I have already incurred the displeasure of a prominent thread participant for expressing an opinion regarding what benefit a power cord may or may not make.

My position was/is clear, but I edited my post as it did not address the thread title.

Edited October 17, 2020 by rantan

[Stereophilus]

32 minutes ago, Sime said:

What I see is a group of exceptional audiophiles who can’t make their minds up that they do work. 

Collectively? Yes.  Individually, not so much.  Some minds involved in this discussion are set... Set so firmly that the seeming intent of their being here is to undermine the curiosity of others.

46 minutes ago, Sime said:

The debate within itself is the biggest clue to the question. 

Meaning the outcome is already known? I respectfully disagree.  I would like to think the debate here reflects a group of objectivists helping a group of subjectivists to find measurements that support their experiences.  If no such measurements can be found then we go back to our respective individual camps.  The OP is making an honourable attempt at bringing 2 disparite groups together, something I wholeheartedly support, even if the outcome is a null finding.

[Telecine]

1 hour ago, rantan said:

John.

I was admonished and reported by a thread participant for a three word post that was off topic because I was persuaded that this thread is nothing to do with power cords making an improvement (or not ).

I edited my post immediately and with deep respect, I suggest that your post is also significantly off topic.

Is this post on topic?

 

[buddyev]

1 minute ago, Telecine said:

Is this post on topic?

 

This post isn’t really on topic. Please edit.

[Eggmeister]

1 minute ago, buddyev said:

This post isn’t really on topic. Please edit.

Nor this one

[bob_m_54]

13 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Collectively? Yes.  Individually, not so much.  Some minds involved in this discussion are set... Set so firmly that the seeming intent of their being here is to undermine the curiosity of others.

Meaning the outcome is already known? I respectfully disagree.  I would like to think the debate here reflects a group of objectivists helping a group of subjectivists to find measurements that support their experiences.  If no such measurements can be found then we go back to our respective individual camps.  The OP is making an honourable attempt at bringing 2 disparite groups together, something I wholeheartedly support, even if the outcome is a null finding.

And there are other minds so set in their faith based belief, that they can't accept that only physical properties can be measured.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Meaning the outcome is already known? I respectfully disagree.  I would like to think the debate here reflects a group of objectivists helping a group of subjectivists to find measurements that support their experiences.  If no such measurements can be found then we go back to our respective individual camps.  The OP is making an honourable attempt at bringing 2 disparite groups together, something I wholeheartedly support, even if the outcome is a null finding.

No, there will never be an affirmative answer, and that is the problem. I’m surprised your not getting my point. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Sime

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, Sime said:

Simply because they won’t disbelieve regardless of any proof or whatnot. 
 

It’s a faith based belief, and faith based beliefs are exceptionally  hard to remove. When it come to personal experience, you can’t disprove a negative. 

 

Team, this doesn't help. I get where it comes from though this doesn't help. I even get where @bob_m_54 comes from. They are not intrinsically bad places, nor do I think they are poorly intended.

 

@Stereophilus and @Marc are pretty close to the sentiment this thread was started with. And, frankly, I hope it stays open a good bit. Payday is coming up and among what's slated for purchase (including some cash for a forum member that's been holding parts for me very kindly) is a decent-ish power meter capable of waveform capture and decent relevant measurements. It would be nice to keep things open until some experiments can be run and shared.

 

It'd be a shame to have to shut it because some people feel a need to hove in with ironclad opinions and a need to read their religion to the rest of the world. ASR exists for that. If you have these opinions, consider using your knowledge to aid in design of experiments here. 

 

There are differences in power quality within standards. Ask a power systems engineer and it's there. We have products fit for purpose where required - balanced isolated transformers, EMC cable, better power stages the boxes we have, linear power supplies, etc. These are engineered fit for application for domains outside of consumer audio with (very) sound rationale. And we have pretty good electrical standards that ensure power gets where it needs to go at very reasonable quality in a very robust way. If your kit and cabling is standards compliant it's certainly not suffering. Insofar as audio goes, is there something between fitness for purpose and a best potential? Is it tangible? Can that be measured?

 

It's a bit like suggesting Ethernet has buffering, isolation and the like and specialist kit can't possibly help a shread. The truth is that there exist Ethernet standards, fit for purpose in application with some analogies to audio playback, that address things like timing accuracy and the the like in a technical manner. They're not common in consumer audio unless you pay thousands. But they do exist. 

 

I cannot tell you that better kit will make a perceptible difference in any given rig. There are too many external variables. I can neither guarantee that differences will be measurable. I'm offering, in this discussion, to host a discussion around what we might look for and how

 

As an engineer I can assure you that the complete limit of audibility are not easily measured. This thread started with two premises - a third-party experiment showing an (incredulous) 7 LSB difference in amplitudes downstream of a CD player with different power cables (!) and my own experience with power cords, where a cord that came with a server so far reigns supreme. I'm not suggesting either experiments are controlled to absolute or even realistic ends. The former is certainly worthy of replication. 

 

It takes a great amount of humility and vunlerability to come out publicly on an internet forum and admit you don't know everything - or anything - and you have a thought you'd like others to contribute comment to. These discussions are inherenntly fragile in nature however can be very valuable in bringing together good thought, amenable discussion and goodwill to a common cause of interest. In any technical forum I've worked in - and there's been a few - a good amount of work simply goes into keeping the quality of discussion going, irrespective of any possibility of the final result being 'we found nothing'. And those forums are usually closed rooms. This is as open as it gets. 

 

Conversely it's a bit saddening to see some jump on this thread, sometimes repeatedly, just to drop a dismissive bucket of s*** on it and those involved. Not least as those doing so certainly don't know everything (no one does), not most as - have a look at yourselves here - you appear to be getting off on limiting other people's ability to feel comfortable in a discussion - publicly so. The low-energy approach to 'I don't believe in power cables' is simply not to indulge a discussion to any other ends. The sort of participation here doesn't say 'I don't believe in this possibility', it says 'I don't believe in this possibility and I get off on - I'll actively expend energy on - being a bit of a bully online where I can'. 

 

Play the ball, not the person. If you can't direct your efforts to better ends within the thread, please go somewhere else. The mods are as sick of getting reports on this thread as I am of having people on this thread approach me to ask if there's a way of sharing this effort outside of SNA. It's f*****g sad. We come here to share an interest, a passion in the same thing. Argue and discuss robustly by all means, remember we're all on the same team.

 

There is a lot of good that could come out of this effort that merits the intelligence and shared interests of everyone (and I mean everyone) on this thread. 

 

If those involved can't help themselves as the OP I'll ask mods to close it, and anyone that wants to follow my travels here and share their own can PM me an email address and we'll move forwards with a mailing list, ol-skool. 

 

(Rant over).

[allthumbs]

Just spitballing (whatever that is) here, would there be any benefit in terms of ease of testing, simultaneous and or mono set up, audio-oriented symmetry in using 2 x powered studio monitors  of the same brand and specifications via a shared DAC?

[MLXXX]

34 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

I would like to think the debate here reflects a group of objectivists helping a group of subjectivists to find measurements that support their experiences.  If no such measurements can be found then we go back to our respective individual camps. 

Would we all simply go back to our original individual camps, though?  You don't think anyone might possibly be prepared to switch camps based on a failure to find measurements showing a difference, even after intensive efforts?

 

Note, I am not prejudging the outcome.

 

If you ask "non-believers" to keep an open mind, shouldn't you ask for similar openness from the "believers"?

[Stereophilus]

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

And there are other minds so set in their faith based belief, that they can't accept that only physical properties can be measured.

 

1 hour ago, Sime said:

No, there will never be an affirmative answer, and that is the problem. I’m surprised your not getting my point. 

Im not sure if this will be palatable for you guys, but can we ignore preconcieved endpoints? Sure we all have opinions, but why not indulge a whim to experiment here and see what happens?

 

Putting this into personal perspective, I sit on the subjective side of this debate, but I am thoroughly willing to have my opinions challenged, and to grow my knowledge by being in some small way involved here.  I am curious.  I want to know more about my hobby.  I want good measurements even if they show nothing.  My opinion may not change... But my experience and knowledge will.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Stereophilus

[Guest]

So how long do forums like this have these debate? Forever?

 

And to what end?