An objective measure of subjectivity. Where do you lie, vote now!

[Ittaku]

This is partly for fun, and partly serious, as a spin off of the countless threads we have about science vs measurements vs subjectivity. As scientists we try to objectively measure everything, so why not subjectivity? We've asked before where people lie in the objective vs subjective debate, but I propose a hard 4 level scale that can be used to quantify your level of subjectivity in an objective way. Unlike other scales, the endpoints are hard endpoints and the rules are simple. You must pick the highest level of subjectivity (i.e. the highest number) that applies to any of your current hi-fi decision making and opinion, even if you think you normally hover at a lower level. If you're unsure about whether you meet those criteria, this is the place to ask as others will happily fill in the gaps for you.

 

Here is the rundown, and I will elaborate further below.

 

1. Established science, measurements, and testing.
2. Established science, measurements, no testing.
3. Established science, no measurements, no testing.
4. Manufacturer claims and unverified theories, no measurements, no testing.

 

1. Level one is the easiest to explain. The change is something that uses established science to explain how it works, has measurements which show that there is a demonstrable difference, and has also been confirmed in blind testing. An example would be two different pairs of speakers that measure differently and are easily distinguished in blind testing.

2. Level two is a change where something uses established science to explain how it works, and has measurements that show there is a demonstrable difference, however those differences are considered too small to be distinguishable by humans and never been confirmed in blind testing. An example would be two DACs with a dynamic range, distortion levels, and linearity differences below the thresholds of human hearing.

3. Level three is a change where something uses established science to explain how it works, but no measurements have ever shown a demonstrable difference in the audible range. Examples would be speaker cables of different topology and construction such as silver vs copper, OCC vs OFC etc, solid core vs stranded vs different insulation where there are differences in inductance, capacitance, and skin effect, but none of which would equate to measurable effects in the audible range.

4. Level four is a change where there is either no explanation for how something works (a black box type device), or has manufacturer blurb descriptions of how it works that does not use established science and has not been printed and validated in a scientific journal and subject to peer review. It also needs to have never had measurements nor blind testing demonstrating a difference. An example would be carbon nanotube discs that you put on speaker terminals.

 

 

Or to put it another way since people seem intent on over-interpreting things:

 

4. Do you buy things that the laws of physics stipulate it should have no effect but you found it sounds better?

3. Do you buy things that the laws of physics stipulate it will behave differently but measures the same but you found it sounds better?

2. Do you buy things that measure differently but existing science says we shouldn't tell them apart but you found it sounds better?

1. Do you only buy things that measure differently and consensus science says they would sound different?

 

Note the "found it sounds better". At some stage we'll eventually be listening to our equipment, and that's when you make your final judgement. Sometimes we buy things unseen/unheard but that doesn't define us.  If you bought a fancy power cable because you wanted a fancy power cable but didn't find it changed the sound that wouldn't push you up.

 

Vote and discuss!

Edited July 26, 2020 by Ittaku

[Ittaku]

And for full disclosure, because this is a relatively "optimistic" vote it should actually tend towards higher scores in the audiophile world than low, at least on this forum. Looking at my speaker cables and interconnects, I realise that despite my attempts at doing blind testing for many components, and being a scientist of sorts, I'm actually a level 3 subjectivist.

[Stereophilus]

Some questions:

 

You say “testing”, but there are levels of confidence with testing.  Blind, double-blind, no blind?  I have never done blind testing on audio gear, but I have done testing and I would otherwise be at level 1 as my highest rating.

 

Secondly, when judging audio equipment I use ALL the information available to me.  Subjective (listening, aesthetics, biases, expectations) and objective (measurements, tests, graphs, engineering reports) in drawing conclusions.  Your “scale” seems to draw a distinction that both subjective and objective cannot coexist?

Edited July 25, 2020 by Stereophilus

[Ittaku]

I did not say YOU had to do the testing, simply that someone somewhere has done testing to confirm it. I never said they couldn't coexist either.

[Stereophilus]

7 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I did not say YOU had to do the testing, simply that someone somewhere has done testing to confirm it.

Ok, fair enough, that wasn’t clear to me from the wording in the OP.

 

8 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I never said they couldn't coexist either.

No need to get defensive.  I’m just trying to establish where I sit on your scale.  Let me re-phrase: In responding to your survey you are asking me to only account for the level of subjectivity I use in my decision making?  Further, I should indicate the highest level that has ever applied to my decision making.  However, the scale you have used does seem to be asking me about my level objectivity (#1 greatest, #4 least) as opposed to my level of subjectivity (only option #4 includes subjective references).  Hence my confusion and original question.

[Ittaku]

Just now, Stereophilus said:

 Let me re-phrase: In responding to your survey you are asking me to only account for the level of subjectivity I use in my decision making?  Further, I should indicate the highest level that has ever applied to my decision making.  However, the scale you have used does seem to be asking me about my level objectivity (#1 greatest, #4 least) as opposed to my level of subjectivity (only option #4 includes subjective references).  Hence my confusion and original question.

I guess it's a sliding scale of subjectivity versus science? Either way, it means at level 4 subjectivity matters 100%, and is least relevant at level 1.

[Stereophilus]

4 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I guess it's a sliding scale of subjectivity versus science? Either way, it means at level 4 subjectivity matters 100%, and is least relevant at level 1.

With the greatest of respect to what you are trying to achieve here, I’m not sure simplifying it into a sliding scale of subjectivity vs science gets to the core of the audio decision making.  
 

Example:  the speakers I purchased are measured in an anechoic room, and blind tested.  They are built by university qualified engineers according to fundamental scientific principles relating to the transduction of sound waves from electricity.  My response to your survey is therefore #1.  However, my decision to buy the speakers was based on attending the showroom, sighted listening without any measurements in front of me, and only my 1 year of university level physics to guide me.... Should my response therefore be #4?

[Ittaku]

1 minute ago, Stereophilus said:

With the greatest of respect to what you are trying to achieve here, I’m not sure simplifying it into a sliding scale of subjectivity vs science gets to the core of the audio decision making.  
 

Example:  the speakers I purchased are measured in an anechoic room, and blind tested.  They are built by university qualified engineers according to fundamental scientific principles relating to the transduction of sound waves from electricity.  My response to your survey is therefore #1.  However, my decision to buy the speakers was based on attending the showroom, sighted listening without any measurements in front of me, and only my 1 year of university level physics to guide me.... Should my response therefore be #4?

1. You know all those other things exist.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Ittaku

[Stereophilus]

Ok, so my Revel floorstanders sitting next to my shakti resonators and Pete Evans endorsed BioCharger NG qualifies me as a #1 on your scale.  So be it, my vote is cast.

 

Disclaimer: I do not own any of these items, the above statement was for illustrative purposes only.

[Ittaku]

4 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Ok, so my Revel floorstanders sitting next to my shakti resonators and Pete Evans endorsed BioCharger NG qualifies me as a #1 on your scale.  So be it, my vote is cast.

 

Disclaimer: I do not own any of these items, the above statement was for illustrative purposes only.

How about your speaker cables

[Stereophilus]

2 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

How about your speaker cables

You don’t want to know! 

[Ittaku]

Just now, Stereophilus said:

You don’t want to know! 

See, I found it introspective myself. I said so in my opening post. I keep looking at my XLO reference speaker cables and telling myself I should replace them with NB speaker cables and sell them off but I just can't do it...

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 hours ago, Ittaku said:

You must pick the highest level that has ever applied to any of your hi-fi decision making

Sorry if it's obvious but do you mean highest level of subjectivity or highest level of objectivity?

 

If (example only)  I own generic kettle cables (because 1) and also schumann resonators (because 4), do I vote 1 or 4 ?

[Ittaku]

Just now, sir sanders zingmore said:

Sorry if it's obvious but do you mean highest level of subjectivity or highest level of objectivity?

 

If (example only)  I own generic kettle cables (because 1) and also schumann resonators (because 4), do I vote 1 or 4 ?

Highest level on my list. That's a 4.

[muon*]

Does my Schultz Resonator qualify me for master level?

 

 

 

[Stereophilus]

Oh damn, I read it as the highest level of objectivity too.  I need to change my vote.

[Ittaku]

Okay, added a tiny bit more for clarification.

[Ittaku]

12 minutes ago, muon* said:

Does my Schultz Resonator qualify me for master level?

 

You win the internet.

[muon*]

7 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

You win the internet.

Can I list it in the clasifieds 

 

On ya' test, I find it tough to determine, but at best I'd say in the 2.5 to 3.2 range

[Ittaku]

Just now, muon* said:

On ya' test, I find it tough to determine, but at best I'd say in the 2.5 to 3.2 range

Then you're a 3 by my rules. I thought I was a 2 then realised my own rules made me a 3. That's why I made the rules that way, so that people didn't try to use their perception of what they are, or try to find an average.

[Steffen]

3 hours ago, Ittaku said:

You must pick the highest level of subjectivity (i.e. the highest number) that has ever applied to any of your hi-fi decision making and opinion, even if you think you normally hover at a lower level.

 

This bit troubles me. I let myself be fooled on occasion by the David Copperfields of the audio/accessory industry when I was younger, but wouldn’t make the same mistakes today. Where does that put me?

 

Sorry, bad analogy. In an actual magic show the vast majority of the paying audience knows they’re being fooled...

[Ittaku]

2 minutes ago, Steffen said:

 

This bit troubles me. I let myself be fooled on occasion by the David Copperfields of the audio/accessory industry when I was younger, but wouldn’t make the same mistakes today. Where does that put me?

 

Sorry, bad analogy. In an actual magic show the vast majority of the paying audience knows they’re being fooled...

Fair question. I'd say what you have/do now instead. I'll clarify that too.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Ittaku

[rantan]

Interesting thread.

 

I will be watching from the sidelines as I am very wary now about  The great audio debate.

Topics in this area always commence well....................................... and I do admire the poll choices.

 

Have at it people

[muon*]

1 minute ago, rantan said:

Interesting thread.

 

I will be watching from the sidelines as I am very wary now about  The great audio debate.

Topics in this area always commence well....................................... and I do admire the poll choices.

 

Have at it people

Teetering on the precipice

[rantan]

1 minute ago, muon* said:

Teetering on the precipice

Actually, staying a very safe distance back from it and I am not even sure where I would fit with the choices anyway.