Purifi 1ET400A new range of class D amp modules

[March Audio]

14 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

You should stick to what I actually have written, Alan.

 

I didn't mention 'PRAT' - that was some other contributor to this thread.

(As I'm sure you know, 'PRAT' stands for 'Pace, Rythm and Timing' - a marketing phase used by Naim & Linn (the 'Flat Earthers'! ) to jusify the prices they were charging for their gear in the 80s.)

 

 

Sure, but given in the recording studio, the singer was undoubtedly in front of the band ... to me, the amp that presented her as such through the speakers is more accurate - irrespective of whether it has "phase issues".  (Bcoz you surely aren't suggesting that a Bryston amp would have "phase issues" - hence wasn't able to present the singer as she was recorded?  )

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

 

I didn't mean to imply you had said anything about prat, just that it was another commonly used Audiophile term which has no real meaning. 

 

So what is air? Did you hear air with the 250 or did you hear the intermodulation distortion that surrounds every note? 

 

Erm... The singer in front of the band?  Recorded with a single mike no doubt where positioning would be impossible to record. Even if 2 mike's were used, their type and spacing will set the soundstage.  Otherwise the mixing and processing. You might find the bryston was doing the right thing

 

Too anecdotal to draw any conclusion. 

 

Soundstage is an illusion, it bears no resemblence to the actual auditory scene. It's a fabrication of the recording engineers choices. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[buddyev]

If only someone had explained to me earlier that it wasn’t ‘air’ but ‘intermodulation distortion’ i was hearing.

I feel so cheated. 

[March Audio]

8 minutes ago, buddyev said:

If only someone had explained to me earlier that it wasn’t ‘air’ but ‘intermodulation distortion’ i was hearing.

I feel so cheated. 

 

That's the problem, no one knows what someone is hearing when they say 'air', maybe nothing at all

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[lemarquis]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

...But proportionately only 0.5% of my budget..

There's the trick! I'd say you spent about as much on your speaker wires and ICs as I have on my entire system 

 

Perceptions of Class D amps seem to vary from effusive praise and the ditching of very highly rated gear to Get it Outta Here!  

 

I'm intrigued but will go by listening rather than methodologies or measurements. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by lemarquis

[ghost4man]

33 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

You should stick to what I actually have written, Alan.

 

I didn't mention 'PRAT' - that was some other contributor to this thread.

(As I'm sure you know, 'PRAT' stands for 'Pace, Rythm and Timing' - a marketing phase used by Naim & Linn (the 'Flat Earthers'! ) to jusify the prices they were charging for their gear in the 80s.)

 

 

Sure, but given in the recording studio, the singer was undoubtedly in front of the band ... to me, the amp that presented her as such through the speakers is more accurate - irrespective of whether it has "phase issues".  (Bcoz you surely aren't suggesting that a Bryston amp would have "phase issues" - hence wasn't able to present the singer as she was recorded?  )

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

Andy, 

 

This actually raises an interesting point of discussion. When we talk about soundstage and in particular focus on individual placement whether it be the singer or instrument, how many of us actually know about the exact positioning? I would think a more authentic presentation is the go to but what if the combination of speaker and amp yields a more palatable sound but with a not so accurate imaging. Unless you've seen the musicians live you wouldn't really know but you do judge the end result. 

 

I'm still inclined to place greater value on a blind test than anything else irrespective of whether of you had a personal investment or not. 

 

It would be interesting to see if air correlated with specific electronic signature. 

 

[Ittaku]

24 minutes ago, lemarquis said:

Perceptions of Class D amps seem to vary from effusive praise and the ditching of very highly rated gear to Get it Outta Here! 

I actually like the sound of my class D amp. Perhaps that was overlooked? It just wasn't as good as my non-class D amps that cost 30x as much (as well it shouldn't)... I'm quite sure that class D amps that cost that much also sound significantly better than the one I have, as I said earlier.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Ittaku

[March Audio]

38 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Andy, 

 

This actually raises an interesting point of discussion. When we talk about soundstage and in particular focus on individual placement whether it be the singer or instrument, how many of us actually know about the exact positioning? I would think a more authentic presentation is the go to but what if the combination of speaker and amp yields a more palatable sound but with a not so accurate imaging. Unless you've seen the musicians live you wouldn't really know but you do judge the end result. 

 

I'm still inclined to place greater value on a blind test than anything else irrespective of whether of you had a personal investment or not. 

 

It would be interesting to see if air correlated with specific electronic signature. 

 

It is indeed an interesting topic.  The vast majority of recordings have not captured any of the original soundstage in the recording environment.  Multi miked and then mixed at the whim of the recording engineer/producer.  Instrument positional placement was entirely their construct and we have no idea what was originally heard by them. 

 

Orchestral recordings will have Mike arrays, maybe a Decca tree, and mixed again. 

 

Even if you get ultra simplistic with just 2 mics, their directional response pattern and their physical set up, xy, spaced pair or ORTF will drastically affect their spatial responses. 

 

We only ever get an illusion of spatial positioning of the original sound scape. It's never realistic, yet some think otherwise. 

 

I will post a link to a recording I made that shows the differences between the above mentioned 2 mic set ups. 

 

Your room acoustics and speaker dispersion have a big influence.  If you want a more centre fixed sound put some absorption at the 1st reflection points, put in diffusion if you want a more spacious effect.

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

I actually like the sound of my class D amp. Perhaps that was overlooked? It just wasn't as good as my non-class D amps that cost 30x as much (as well it shouldn't)... I'm quite sure that class D amps that cost that much also sound significantly better than the one I have, as I said earlier.

Have to ask, and hope I'm not coming across as trying to find fault, but what is the basis for your view that price relates to sound quality? 

[Ittaku]

4 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Have to ask, and hope I'm not coming across as trying to find fault, but what is the basis for your view that price relates to sound quality? 

You are coming across as trying to find fault.I'm not sure if you're just trying to annoy me or what now. I have to question your motives in asking such a question. I mean perhaps you have an agenda to make people believe that class D amps at 1/10th the cost that meet some kind of measurement ceiling will sound better than any other amps that exist.

 

Because good quality components that go into electronics are expensive and it takes a lot of experience to design something well?  The 2 revered class D amps I know of the mola whatsit and the technics thingy cost about 30k each. That's not because they're studded with diamonds and lined with gold. Yes many components have massive mark-up and clearly don't cost 30x as much to make when they charge 30x as much, but then you're also paying for years of R&D and bucketloads of marketing. Years of listening to components has shown me that whilst you may not always get what you pay for, you can't get more than what you pay for.

 

I see many people magically think that there is a ceiling to quality that just happens to be exactly where their budget ceiling is. It's a great human trait as it makes people feel comfortable in their purchases. It's also bollocks.

[andyr]

2 hours ago, lemarquis said:

I'm intrigued but will go by listening rather than methodologies or measurements.

 

 

Correct!   

 

Andy

 

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

You are coming across as trying to find fault.I'm not sure if you're just trying to annoy me or what now. I have to question your motives in asking such a question. I mean perhaps you have an agenda to make people believe that class D amps at 1/10th the cost that meet some kind of measurement ceiling will sound better than any other amps that exist.

 

Because good quality components that go into electronics are expensive and it takes a lot of experience to design something well?  The 2 revered class D amps I know of the mola whatsit and the technics thingy cost about 30k each. That's not because they're studded with diamonds and lined with gold. Yes many components have massive mark-up and clearly don't cost 30x as much to make when they charge 30x as much, but then you're also paying for years of R&D and bucketloads of marketing. Years of listening to components has shown me that whilst you may not always get what you pay for, you can't get more than what you pay for.

 

I see many people magically think that there is a ceiling to quality that just happens to be exactly where their budget ceiling is. It's a great human trait as it makes people feel comfortable in their purchases. It's also bollocks.

 

I think you are being overly sensitive. I'm only asking a question about something you have stated. 

 

The motive is simply trying to understand the basis for your viewpoint.  It's a viewpoint that's IMO demonstrably untrue. My business objectives are irrelevant to this. 

 

If we can use your amp as an example, what new extensively developed design ideas or expensive components went into it? There is nothing new in the tube world. 

 

You mention the Mola Mola Kaluga. Another of Bruno designs. They are about $12K each from memory. The nc1200 module it contains has a few minor differences to the board that is now available to OEMs such as myself.  Yet the Mola amp is maybe 8 times the price of alternatives. 

 

Ceiling to quality?  I think quality needs to be demonstrated and not assumed based on price.  As an example there are now a number of dacs costing just a few hundred dollars that have superior technical quality and that are audibly indistinguishable from very expensive alternatives.  

 

So is magically thinking spending more equals better quality  a “great human trait as it makes people feel comfortable in their purchases“? Is that also bollocks? 

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[March Audio]

5 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Correct!   

 

Andy

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive. 

[frednork]

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Ceiling to quality?  I think quality needs to be demonstrated and not assumed based on price.  As an example there are now a number of dacs costing just a few hundred dollars that have superior technical quality and that are audibly indistinguishable from very expensive alternatives.  

Interested in what dacs you are referring to

[Ittaku]

Did we somehow go onto DACs now? That must be my fault. At least there my DAC "measures well" as well as sounds good, though I didn't buy it for its measurements...

Edited September 4, 2019 by Ittaku

[March Audio]

34 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Did we somehow go onto DACs now? That must be my fault. At least there my DAC "measures well" as well as sounds good, though I didn't buy it for its measurements...

 

Clearly we didn't "get into dacs" it was just a way of demonstrating a point. 

 

Weird, can't delete an emoji

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[March Audio]

49 minutes ago, frednork said:

Interested in what dacs you are referring to

 ASR is an excellent resource for hardware reviews, but don't expect any flowery subjective commentary

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?reviews/

 

[ghost4man]

7 hours ago, Ittaku said:

You are coming across as trying to find fault.I'm not sure if you're just trying to annoy me or what now. I have to question your motives in asking such a question. I mean perhaps you have an agenda to make people believe that class D amps at 1/10th the cost that meet some kind of measurement ceiling will sound better than any other amps that exist.

 

Because good quality components that go into electronics are expensive and it takes a lot of experience to design something well?  The 2 revered class D amps I know of the mola whatsit and the technics thingy cost about 30k each. That's not because they're studded with diamonds and lined with gold. Yes many components have massive mark-up and clearly don't cost 30x as much to make when they charge 30x as much, but then you're also paying for years of R&D and bucketloads of marketing. Years of listening to components has shown me that whilst you may not always get what you pay for, you can't get more than what you pay for.

 

I see many people magically think that there is a ceiling to quality that just happens to be exactly where their budget ceiling is. It's a great human trait as it makes people feel comfortable in their purchases. It's also bollocks.

Its my understanding that the high price for the Mola and Technics can be attributed to the implementation of the GaN semiconductor technology. I'm not sure the nc1200s have that specifically. Clearly this relates to R&D than cost of parts. 

 

For me personally to go down the path of Class D I would want unconditional stability into 2 ohm loads coupled with access to bootloads of current to get my big magnepans to sing. 

 

In saying that I believe Bill M has enjoyed great success using Nuprime Evolution One monoblocs on his 20.7s.

[March Audio]

3 hours ago, ghost4man said:

Its my understanding that the high price for the Mola and Technics can be attributed to the implementation of the GaN semiconductor technology. I'm not sure the nc1200s have that specifically. Clearly this relates to R&D than cost of parts. 

 

For me personally to go down the path of Class D I would want unconditional stability into 2 ohm loads coupled with access to bootloads of current to get my big magnepans to sing. 

 

In saying that I believe Bill M has enjoyed great success using Nuprime Evolution One monoblocs on his 20.7s.

The nc1200, whilst having a few  differences, is the same module as the Mola, no GaN involved. 

 

It is stable at 2 ohms and and can supply 40 amps.  In fact all hypex ncore are stable at 2 ohms and generally have good current capability.  The NC400 for example is 25 amps.

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[andyr]

8 hours ago, March Audio said:

The two aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

I didn't suggest they were, Alan.  (IE. I didn't suggest that something that measures well can't possibly sound good.)

 

My comment was in answer to @lemarquis's post who said (or at least, I interpreted him as saying) he uses his ears - not measurements - to choose equipment.

 

Andy

 

[ghost4man]

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

No the nc1200 whilst having a few minor differences is the same module, no gan involved. 

 

It is stable at 2 ohms and and can supply 40 amps.  In fact all hypex ncore are stable at 2 ohms. 

Alan, 

 

Just so we are clear the distinction here is major between the modules used in say the Mola, Technics is the GaN implementation. 

 

Whether you favour its adoption or not is matter for you to decide for yourself. 

 

I personally can't justify the exponential price increase although R&D are factors. 

[AudioGeek]

There is a new cheaper GAN based class D amp from orchard audio that looks interesting at a bargain price point.

 

I have used hypex nc500 and Icepower 1200AS2 amps with my 15 inch AE bass drivers. They are 4 ohm nominal, but with passive network present a 2ohm load and drop well below this near the crossover point. I also apply EQ - so put any amp under quite a strain. Have had no issue driving them with the class D amps, and actually they perform much better than the class A/B amp I had.

 

Depending on the speakers, I found that vibration control with isoacoustic Gaia footers or similar really improves the central image/focus and provides more "air"'. There are videos from demonstrations that show this and can be appreciated even with the limitations of youtube playback.

 

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

I didn't suggest they were, Alan.  (IE. I didn't suggest that something that measures well can't possibly sound good.)

 

My comment was in answer to @lemarquis's post who said (or at least, I interpreted him as saying) he uses his ears - not measurements - to choose equipment.

 

Andy

 

 

Andy, you need to stop assuming that my observations are an inference of things you didnt say.

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[March Audio]

46 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Alan, 

 

Just so we are clear the distinction here is major between the modules used in say the Mola, Technics is the GaN implementation. 

 

Whether you favour its adoption or not is matter for you to decide for yourself. 

 

I personally can't justify the exponential price increase although R&D are factors. 

 Im sure the differences stretch beyond there but neither company will let out the fine detail of the secret sauce

 

Bruno has some interesting things to say about GaN, it has advantages and disadvantages.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/purifi-audio-and-the-audiophile-style-readers-qa-with-lars-risbo-bruno-putzeys-r815/

Edited September 4, 2019 by March Audio

[frednork]

9 hours ago, March Audio said:

 ASR is an excellent resource for hardware reviews, but don't expect any flowery subjective commentary

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?reviews/

 

Thanks for that,  I have seen this a while ago  and note that your dac measures quite well so congratulations on that.  When I try to use the measurements on ASR and correlate with my experience I struggle to find any link.  Also look forward to hearing your gear at the Hifi show!!

 

I note your comments on @Ittaku's amplifiers and how the measurements are less than optimal and your preference for better measuring amplifiers. With that in mind there are another 4 dacs in this list that measure the same as yours.

 

What would be your recommendation as to how to choose between them?

[buddyev]

16 minutes ago, frednork said:

Thanks for that,  I have seen this a while ago  and note that your dac measures quite well so congratulations on that.  When I try to use the measurements on ASR and correlate with my experience I struggle to find any link.  Also look forward to hearing your gear at the Hifi show!!

 

I note your comments on @Ittaku's amplifiers and how the measurements are less than optimal and your preference for better measuring amplifiers. With that in mind there are another 4 dacs in this list that measure the same as yours.

 

What would be your recommendation as to how to choose between them?

The Dac 1 is a nice looking dac. Unfortunately, for me, it has only one input and is quite a bit more expensive than the Topping D50s. So, my advice is, If you're going only on measurements and rightfully want to ignore flowery subjective commentary its a no-brainer