Power conditioning - choking the system!"

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Maties, 

I thought I knew it all and as my good old pops used to say, "as a rule man is a fool; Wants it hot when it's cool, wants it cool when it's hot, always wanting what is not... And although I've been in this highend madness for nearly 3 decades, ran my own high-End dealership, burnt many fingers along the way, and then realized my mistakes and started all over again in 2015. Within those three years, leading up-to now, the system I've put together is possibly the best I could do, within my finances and not going too overboard. Obviously I have other priorities, house, family kiddo's higher education etc... and life goes on. 

 

Most recently, under a different Tab, new members, Maggie's - there was a chap who was looking for a second pair of speakers, just to experience something different from his present system, which is outstanding itself! Stacked Klipsch Lascala horns with separate bass horns, driven with full McIntosh amplification, with 3 power amps! Jeez, that's enough power to launch the next mission to the moon!

 

Anyway, he was interested in Maggie's and the finesse of ribbons, so he finally got his pair of MG1.7i's and more to come... 

He visited my place to listen to my Martin Logan CLX Art's, driven with top of the line CJ amplification. It was great and he had a wonderful time, however there was a frown... He expected more. I asked how so? Mentioned something about a sort of "veil affect", as if something was choking the whole system but he could definitely feel the massive potential to be unleashed...

 

After a few weeks passed by, he had given it some thought and told me that the culprit was the dam power conditioner, the Thor PS10!

 

I was also told by another forum member, who also owns CLX's driven with Pass Labs amps, not to use the Thor, as it's inferior and will make the whole system suffer. I never listened and thought he was exaggerating, only to learn not so when I made the final changes just today.

 

I entirely disconnected the Thor, and ran the Nordost Qbase 8 power board directly into the AC mains outlet. Then connected the preamp into the QX4, and have now plugged in the QX4 directly into the Qbase 8 as the primary earth. Then using the phonostage preamp as the secondary earth connection and fully grounded as per config suggested by Nordost. Powered up the system, said a prayer...

 

Oh my goodness gracious! What a HUGE difference, it's not even funny! The dynamics are not just effortless but also limitless! Superb, superb superb! 

What the heck was the Thor doing... 

 

At the end of the day, all you require for any highend system to reproduce music in full swing, with sheer power, top notch realism and naturalness along with a fine level of refinement, is a dedicated 10Amp line with a separate switch directly connected to the AC mains. This line must NOT be shared with anything else, such as the kettle or fridge or TV, just pure audio dedicated, and the difference is massive! 

 

The more transparent your speakers are, the more level of musicality and resolution it will deliver, that's basically all the power conditioning you would ever need! 

 

Don't waste your money on those fancy gadgets and lights, bells & whistles, absolute rubbish! Unless, your system is not highend, and is less revealing on what's on the recording, and you have terrible voltage swing in the house, then the use of power conditioners is OK. But it will definitely choke the system in many ways. And that's all she wrote! 

 

BTW, this is a special dedication to Gary, for if not for him, I would've never experienced this level of brilliance from my CLX's, respect mate! 

Big woof, RJ

[Addicted to music]

Let me get this right, You are talking about this:  Thor PS10   $2k.

 

https://www.aussiehifi.com.au/products/thor-ps10-smart-power-station?variant=6980199120929&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkLqhmYOl3wIVQyUrCh3hFQVdEAQYASABEgLti_D_BwE

 

Now the silly question is, what made you buy this and use it?   And why didn’t you notice this when you initially tried this 1st.   Strange how a 2nd pair of ears places doubts in your mind and questions your initial selection.

[Ittaku]

Next try a HPM or Kambrook power board instead of the Nordost one.

[Snoopy8]

The Thor PS10 affects a few components but not others.  Need to test and compare when a component is changed.  

[andyr]

6 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

I entirely disconnected the Thor, and ran the Nordost Qbase 8 power board directly into the AC mains outlet. Then connected the preamp into the QX4, and have now plugged in the QX4 directly into the Qbase 8 as the primary earth. Then using the phonostage preamp as the secondary earth connection and fully grounded as per config suggested by Nordost. Powered up the system, said a prayer...

 

 

Have no idea what a 'QX4' is, RJ,  but why can't you have your preamp and your phono stage plugged directly into wall sockets - no 'QX4' and no 'Qbase8'?

 

Andy

 

[frankn]

Likely that BD-RJ doesn't have enough mains outlets to plug all the power cords into.  With all the powered units (speakers, amps etc.) should bring in an electrician to add a bank of outlets off a dedicated circuit (or two).  

 

[Big Dog RJ]

The place we currently live in (shoe box) with a decent size living area, was built in the 60's. Compared to most modern flats/units, it's far bigger than those, which are basically fish bowls. Moved in 2004, I was putting together my system from scratch (had to sell off my entire previous one, Infinity's Beta, CJ premier 8 monoblocks, Manley reference 350 monoblocks, and CJ ART preamp) migrating here was no easy task. I noticed unstable voltage when I tested with a multi-meter. I had the CJ mv60se driving Maggie's MGIIIa, and I could hear this variance in sound as well as it was difficult to bias the output tubes as steady current.

 

When I went shopping for a good high quality voltage stabilizer / power conditioner, I came across three dealers using the Thor. Some of them had over 100 grand systems plugged into it... For ethical reasons I won't mention names but you all know them quite well.

So I got one, voltage issue sorted out, including all other unwanted noises. 

 

After about 10 years, there were luxury apartments put up next door, the entire grid was changed, including the mains wiring in our units. Meters were changed to digital and upgrades done on the mains poles. I noticed straight away that the voltage was much more stabilized, between 241 & 244 would be the variance, unlike before which dipped to 190 and went up-to 260! This was not good for tubes. 

 

After this all stabilized I didn't bother to disconnect the Thor, hence just kept in there... 

 

As you all know very well, there's another chap who was listening to his Maggie's with blown tweeters! 

If I'm correct, I was the one who pointed out that those tweeters are blown. No thank you or anything, that's OK... In fact a suggestion that I even fix them for him.

 

Sometimes we get used to a particular sound, and we think that's the best. It actually takes a different set of ears (not necessarily golden ears) to tell you that something's not quite right.

Last night when the wifey had a listen whiles she was getting ready to hit the sack, she came out and sat with me for nearly an hour, she was wondering whether I had bought a new amp... She was about to thump me on the head but this time when she saw the Thor placed on the floor in a corner, she smiled. And that's all she wrote. 

 

Even my daughter, who plays the trombone, said that the trombone really sounds like a trombone, who's playing dad? And that's all she wrote. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is quite simple: although you may think you've got it all figured out, just for audiophile sake, invite someone over for a listen and ask them to evaluate, you may actually learn a few things! 

 

Cheers and all the best, RJ 

[Big Dog RJ]

4 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Have no idea what a 'QX4' is, RJ,  but why can't you have your preamp and your phono stage plugged directly into wall sockets - no 'QX4' and no 'Qbase8'?

 

Andy

 

G'day Andy, how's it going... I need to plan a day to come over for a listen mate. I'll let you know when I'm ready. 

 

Yes, the Nordost accessories are very interesting. The Qbase is basically a high quality power board with 8 outlets, and has connection for primary earth and secondary earth, this is a full grounding system that Nordost incorporates in their power boards. They also make a smaller one Qbase 4.

 

The QX4 is a magnetic field stabilizer, it controls all the stray magnetic fields created by all the components in use. It is a very powerful unit and has 4 magnetic elements inside that work on Quantum resonant technology QRT, and makes a very nice difference to the overall presentation of the soundstage. 

 

It will not alter the sound, which is what most gadgets do, rather this one controls and tightens up the entire soundstage to a point where you can actually feel each performance, the imaging is Sharper, better focus and definition. On panels, this level of transparency is simply marvelous! 

 

That's about all it does and it does it very well. They also make a smaller unit QX2, which is as good but less power than the QX4 obviously. There are also individual QX units that you can plug into the mains or into isolated outlets on your power board, these little things also make a difference, where everything is clearer much quieter presentation. 

They are extremely well built and solid components, very nice accessories that actually do work, unlike most other snake oil... 

 

This was actually recommended by Robert Harley, editor in chief of TAS, and a few others as well. You need to try them out first to test, once you feel the difference, you'll know straight away. 

 

Cheers mate, and have a good one RJ 

[WorkinClassAudio]

31 minutes ago, Big Dog RJ said:

 

 

As you all know very well, there's another chap who was listening to his Maggie's with blown tweeters! 

If I'm correct, I was the one who pointed out that those tweeters are blown. No thank you or anything, that's OK... In fact a suggestion that I even fix them for him.

 

 

I did give you credit for bringing my attention to the blown tweeters.  And you acknowledged it.  In the end I decided it was safer to simply buy replacement tweeters rather than have them rebuilt.  Thank you once more, in case you forgot the last time I gave you credit. 

 

And yeah, it pays to listen to the system with fresh ears to avoid complacency. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by GroovyGuru

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Big Dog RJ said:

G'day Andy, how's it going... I need to plan a day to come over for a listen mate. I'll let you know when I'm ready.

 

I look forward to it, RJ. 

 

1 hour ago, Big Dog RJ said:

 

Yes, the Nordost accessories are very interesting. The Qbase is basically a high quality power board with 8 outlets, and has connection for primary earth and secondary earth, this is a full grounding system that Nordost incorporates in their power boards. They also make a smaller one Qbase 4.

 

The QX4 is a magnetic field stabilizer, it controls all the stray magnetic fields created by all the components in use. It is a very powerful unit and has 4 magnetic elements inside that work on Quantum resonant technology QRT, and makes a very nice difference to the overall presentation of the soundstage. 

 

It will not alter the sound, which is what most gadgets do, rather this one controls and tightens up the entire soundstage to a point where you can actually feel each performance, the imaging is Sharper, better focus and definition. On panels, this level of transparency is simply marvelous! 

 

 

Very interesting device.

 

Andy

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Just returned from Gary's place few hrs ago. Superb dynamics, effortless and reaches areas I have not heard from horns. Even the Avant Garde's couldn't reproduce this level. Played some tunes on Japanese drums, what a superb rendition and level of playback it delivers. 

 

These are double stacked Klipsch Lascala horns with added mid-bass horns stacked in the middle. Driven with a full line up of McIntosh amplification, there's more power to definitely launch the next mission to the moon, no doubt!

Three different power amps to drive the stacked Towers, although they are very powerful, the sound is not harsh at all, very smooth and well balanced. The Klipsch subs only kick in when the extra bass is required, other than that it doesn't linger around unlike so many normal subs... 

 

That was probably the best dynamics I've heard in a long time, it can also play soft with very minimal power required and yet again blistering loud with very power as well. Excellent combination I should say, Klipsch horns and McIntosh amplifiers. 

 

Thanks for the wonderful sound G mate! 

Cheers, RJ 

[Addicted to music]

9 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

I noticed unstable voltage when I tested with a multi-meter. I had the CJ mv60se driving Maggie's MGIIIa, and I could hear this variance in sound as well as it was difficult to bias the output tubes as steady current.

After about 10 years, there were luxury apartments put up next door, the entire grid was changed, including the mains wiring in our units. Meters were changed to digital and upgrades done on the mains poles. I noticed straight away that the voltage was much more stabilized, between 241 & 244 would be the variance, unlike before which dipped to 190 and went up-to 260! This was not good for tubes. 

A variation of 190-260V is unacceptable..  As per other  threads the standards defined in AS61000.3.100,  mains shouldn’t vary outside +10 -6% thats defined between 216-253v.    If you had such a large variation at the time you should have reported it to the grid.    The preferred range is +6 -2% .    They would have attended your premises immediately and placed a logger for 48hrs and told you what the next step would be after examining the data.

I myself have never had an issue until I moved to a new estate back in 2007, it was until I was reading some thread on SNA that I got involved in measuring the mains and was totally surprised on what  I was observing on the high side, 260V and climbing.   One phone call and they were here in minutes and straight of there MM the measurement corresponded to my readings. A logger was place for 48hr monitoring and then a decision that it will take 2 wks to rectify.   You also get confirmation that the issue was resolved.

But now smart meters are involved they have the ability to pull that up and also monitor from a remote location.   It just goes to show whether you’re in old or new infrastructure it really doesn’t matter, over voltage has the ability to reduce life in a components and possible “burn it out”. Under voltage has the issue where equipment fail to operate at optimum levels and can also do damage.   Outside this defined range is a real issue.   

The advantage of smart meters is that during a power outage there is really no need to “phone in and report an outage” if you register, they already know that an outage is occurring in your area and a SMS is sent to your phone.   

 

I may have appeared to come across as questioning your hearing abilities but that wasn’t my intent.  I was more interested in your journey that shaped you into purchasing the conditioner and your current findings.    Thanks for your honesty and sharing this so others may learn from your experience.   Like most things on S NA and most forums is you learn from others experiences and it’s these experiences that shapes the decision making from that journey.

 

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh sorry, I forgot to state the point in all of this. Still recovering from those massive hits off those Japanese drums with the Klipsch demo at G man's place... 

In that system, no power conditioning whatsoever. In fact he had the very same Thor and it ended up in the recycling bin. 

The system comprises of mac amps, and those are made and built like tanks. Similar to other high end gear, their internal power supplies, discrete voltage regulators, isolated circuits from the mains, dual transformers and so, do not require further power conditioning.

 

Now I was told by the Thor two (after a lengthy discussion on the phone) that the Thor is not required in such highend systems, rather more suited for HT... OK in that case what if the HT is also highend?  Such systems do exist? And that's all he wrote... 

Anyway, we ended the discussion on good terms but I won't be installing any power conditioners hereafter. At the level of performance I'm getting through the system now, there's no point in ruining it. 

Cheers to all  and be careful of such devices and claims. Select carefully and so get a third person to listen just to evaluate the overall sound, it does help. 

 

PS. Thanks Peter, and I trust your Maggie's will be running in no time, and you should be getting that fine musicality from your 20.7's... Have you managed to get the tweeters replaced? 

 

Cheers RJ 

[Big Dog RJ]

10 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

A variation of 190-260V is unacceptable..  As per other  threads the standards defined in AS61000.3.100,  mains shouldn’t vary outside +10 -6% thats defined between 216-253v.    If you had such a large variation at the time you should have reported it to the grid.    The preferred range is +6 -2% .    They would have attended your premises immediately and placed a logger for 48hrs and told you what the next step would be after examining the data.

I myself have never had an issue until I moved to a new estate back in 2007, it was until I was reading some thread on SNA that I got involved in measuring the mains and was totally surprised on what  I was observing on the high side, 260V and climbing.   One phone call and they were here in minutes and straight of there MM the measurement corresponded to my readings. A logger was place for 48hr monitoring and then a decision that it will take 2 wks to rectify.   You also get confirmation that the issue was resolved.

But now smart meters are involved they have the ability to pull that up and also monitor from a remote location.   It just goes to show whether you’re in old or new infrastructure it really doesn’t matter, over voltage has the ability to reduce life in a components and possible “burn it out”. Under voltage has the issue where equipment fail to operate at optimum levels and can also do damage.   Outside this defined range is a real issue.   

The advantage of smart meters is that during a power outage there is really no need to “phone in and report an outage” if you register, they already know that an outage is occurring in your area and a SMS is sent to your phone.   

 

I may have appeared to come across as questioning your hearing abilities but that wasn’t my intent.  I was more interested in your journey that shaped you into purchasing the conditioner and your current findings.    Thanks for your honesty and sharing this so others may learn from your experience.   Like most things on S NA and most forums is you learn from others experiences and it’s these experiences that shapes the decision making from that journey.

 

 

Thanks mate for the feedback. No worries I understand your points.

When the luxury apartments came up, it was a sort of mafia mob from that did the job and were the owners. I showed what was happening to one chap, and like you mentioned, overnight city power was drilling away those poles, installing new transformers on the road plus upgrading all the Meters in the area. Now issue solved and the music is mighty fine! 

Cheers, and have a good one, RJ 

[agisthos]

I have done a lot of power treatment over the years, using both retail products and DIY setups. In my experience avoid power conditioners that have active power regeneration or those with transformer based power conditioning. They all sit on the dynamics of every system I ever heard. "Choking the system" is the right term to describe it.

 

Also, I would avoid power filters that are active or in series. The best power treatment seems to be passive parallel devices. But even then it can be very component dependent.

 

Nordost seem to focus on passive parallel filters, which makes sense based on my own experiences so far.

Edited December 18, 2018 by agisthos

[TerryO]

33 minutes ago, agisthos said:

I have done a lot of power treatment over the years, using both retail products and DIY setups. In my experience avoid power conditioners that have active power regeneration or those with transformer based power conditioning. They all sit on the dynamics of every system I ever heard. "Choking the system" is the right term to describe it.

 

Also, I would avoid power filters that are active or in series. The best power treatment seems to be passive parallel devices. But even then it can be very component dependent.

 

Nordost seem to focus on passive parallel filters, which makes sense based on my own experiences so far.

Just goes to show how various peoples findings can be so different. I have a PS Audio P10 and it doesn't choke my system at all, it actually made the system sound much more defined and added detail and widened the sound stage.

 

Don't take my word for it, I had four separate people of varying ages visit my place over two weeks, none were into hifi, none spoke with each other over the two week period, none had even seen a tube amp let alone knew what a power regenerator was. So to see if I was imagining how good it sounded or not for each person I played multiple times the same piece of music with and without the P10 connected and each time each person said that the music sounded better with that big black box connected up, so I bought the bloody thing.

 

Anyway all I'm saying is what works for one doesn't always work for the other and vice versa.

 

cheers Terry 

Edited December 18, 2018 by TerryO

[tripitaka]

18 minutes ago, agisthos said:

I have done a lot of power treatment over the years, using both retail products and DIY setups. In my experience avoid power conditioners that have active power regeneration or those with transformer based power conditioning. They all sit on the dynamics of every system I ever heard. "Choking the system" is the right term to describe it.

 

Also, I would avoid power filters that are active or in series. The best power treatment seems to be passive parallel devices. But even then it can be very component dependent.

 

Nordost seem to focus on passive parallel filters, which makes sense based on my own experiences so far.

It sounds like you know you are talking about. Can I check if u are speaking specifically about powering an amplifier? By which I mean that active power regen shouldnt make any difference for powering, say, a source, should it?

Thanks Trip

[Big Dog RJ]

Some good points there, and definitely depends on the design and topology of the power conditioner unit itself.

 

The PS Audio gear is on a completely different level altogether. Designed by Paul McGowan and the team, they know what they're doing. However, as far as the Thor is concerned, regardless of both models PS10 & PS20, they do have active tracking, filtering and sort of take care of noise, unwanted EMI & perhaps RFI, but at the cost of limited dynamics and an average presentation of SOTA sound, definitely not pristine.

 

If your systems are quiet and you don't hear anything from top to bottom, drivers/panels/ribbon/stat elements are pretty much quiet, then you really don't need anything further, other than a dedicated line with plenty of current.

 

Back in home town cmb, when we had the Apogee's with the CJ monoblocks, the power grid was terrible! You had to virtually bribe some chappy at the electricity board to provide stable current, just enough for the week. All depends on how much bribes... 

I used an isolator unit called Best Power, which was highly recommended by Eve Anna Manley (president Manley labs). She was using the same unit on her reference monoblocks, both in their showroom and lab. It was a huge beast, massive transformers IE-frame type and had to be hard-wired into the AC outlets. It did a marvelous job but one very annoying thing with it was a constant hum! That dam hum just wouldn't go away, and I was told it was quite normal... Oh well, when music played it was OK but during soft & very quiet passages you could hear the hum. 

 

After that system was sold, and the Maggie's came back, I used individual voltage stabilizers for each monoblock hard wired directly into the mains, no plugs... This helped far greater than the isolator and best of all, no hum!

 

When I mentioned this to her, she then mentioned that the Best Power unit can hum depending on how far it's taxed. As per fixing this problem she had installed the unit well away from the audio system, hence you couldn't hear any him at all if it was either wall mounted or located in another corner. That would have helped but by then I discontinued its use since it was no longer required. 

 

I noticed that some power conditioners are top dollar, ranging from 15-25 grand! I really wonder how effective they are... 

Cheers, RJ 

[JohnL]

Wouldn't listen without my Gigawatt PF2 conditioner now.

 

Big improvement with clearly lower noise floor.

Dynamic swings are actually better with no "choking" of my actives whatsoever.

Even improved my Pioneer Plasma's PQ!!

 

IMHO Just let your ears (and eyes?) decide if a conditioner or regenerator is a benefit to you. 

[agisthos]

2 hours ago, tripitaka said:

It sounds like you know you are talking about. Can I check if u are speaking specifically about powering an amplifier? By which I mean that active power regen shouldnt make any difference for powering, say, a source, should it?

Thanks Trip

Yes I am specifically talking about amplifiers.

But here is where it gets tricky... I am also a videophile, and have come across power filters that improved the sources, improved video quality, but reduced audio dynamics and killed the music.

 

So sometimes active power regen and filtering can help the source, but you need to run the power/integrated amp on a different power line. It also depends on the size of the amp and the amps own power supply.

I always used to say there is no hard and fast rule, but I now lean to... NO active and NO in-series.

[agisthos]

3 hours ago, TerryO said:

Just goes to show how various peoples findings can be so different. I have a PS Audio P10 and it doesn't choke my system at all, it actually made the system sound much more defined and added detail and widened the sound stage.

 

Don't take my word for it, I had four separate people of varying ages visit my place over two weeks, none were into hifi, none spoke with each other over the two week period, none had even seen a tube amp let alone knew what a power regenerator was. So to see if I was imagining how good it sounded or not for each person I played multiple times the same piece of music with and without the P10 connected and each time each person said that the music sounded better with that big black box connected up, so I bought the bloody thing.

 

Anyway all I'm saying is what works for one doesn't always work for the other and vice versa.

 

cheers Terry 

I have not tried the P10 and always wanted to. Magenta Audio are only a 20min drive from where I live, so there is no excuse...

[ThirdDrawerDown]

Were you using the Thor power board (plugs/ sockets) as well as the transformer?

 

I ditched the power board but kept the transformer. The power board was the problem. 

 

(Apologies if that isn't news to some, I've mentioned it on the forum 4 times now.  That's the final time.)

[TerryO]

15 minutes ago, agisthos said:

I have not tried the P10 and always wanted to. Magenta Audio are only a 20min drive from where I live, so there is no excuse...

I wouldn't recommend getting one on loan to try, that is what I did, now my bank balance looks a lot less healthier than before. ...  

 

Cheers Terry

Edited December 18, 2018 by TerryO

[agisthos]

2 hours ago, JohnL said:

Wouldn't listen without my Gigawatt PF2 conditioner now.

 

Big improvement with clearly lower noise floor.

Dynamic swings are actually better with no "choking" of my actives whatsoever.

Even improved my Pioneer Plasma's PQ!!

 

IMHO Just let your ears (and eyes?) decide if a conditioner or regenerator is a benefit to you. 

A perfect example of confused terminology, which is mainly the manufacturers fault.

 

The Gigawatt PF2 is not a power conditioner, its a power strip. It does not do active filtering. It uses RLC parallel filters to draw away the noise. The only in-series element is the protection circuit.

So based on this specification criteria you would expect it not to reduce dynamics or 'choke' at all. You would expect it to be an all round improvement. I would like to test one.

 

Gigwatt have more advanced models with all the active regen stuff as well.

[JohnL]

3 hours ago, agisthos said:

A perfect example of confused terminology, which is mainly the manufacturers fault.

 

The Gigawatt PF2 is not a power conditioner, its a power strip. It does not do active filtering. It uses RLC parallel filters to draw away the noise. The only in-series element is the protection circuit.

So based on this specification criteria you would expect it not to reduce dynamics or 'choke' at all. You would expect it to be an all round improvement. I would like to test one.

 

Gigwatt have more advanced models with all the active regen stuff as well.

Unfortunately the PF2 is as far as my budget stretches.... 

Fortunately it stretched far enough for a PF2......

Edited December 18, 2018 by JohnL