AVR or Pre-Pro for Stereo based A/V System

[zydeco]

3 hours ago, al said:

good gosh seems an amazing amount of money for in ceilings. typically i would suggest to match up with in ceilings with what ever other brand main speakers you are running. am sure they are fantastic ! but there would be limits with that thinking I would think  

 

1 hour ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Yeh I’d be thinking $5k for a non ideal speaker solution might be madness but depends on the value of the other equipment I guess. 

I’ve used directional niles ceiling speakers and can say the are great, again not as ideal as proper rears but certainly gives me that enveloping surround sound everyone is looking for.

 

Thanks. You've confirmed my suspicion that, given the compromises inherent in the set-up, investing too much in in-ceiling surround doesn't make a lot of sense

[zydeco]

Thinks have, in a sense, moved on in that we have decided that, for now, a 2.0 or 2.2 (adding subs) set-up is all that is required although this might change down the track when renovations are completed. The big change, though, is that all the various speakers and amps have been sold off being replaced with Dutch & Dutch 8c which have turned out to be a major upgrade as well as the highest WAF speakers that I've ever had! The A/V front-end is lean with Apple TV, Fetch TV and Console all direct to TV via HDMI with optical out sent to a mini-DSP DDRC-22D that sends a room corrected digital (AES) to the speakers.

 

All this works well but there is a nagging question about using an AV Pre-Pro or AVR. The major advantages would look to be avoiding the TV in the audio chain, adding more HDMI inputs (which I could do via a switch) and either including the LFE in the down-mix or adding a dedicated LFE channel. All this is made a bit more difficult in that the requirement for balanced inputs on the 8c sees the need for more expensive AV Pre-Pro. My thinking is it doesn't make sense to replace the front-end given the current 2.0 set-up and that the real decision is whether to make the move to a 2.1 set-up which would entail purchase of a sub + AVP. Does this sound right? Or, alternatively, is moving audio away from the TV likely to be a big benefit? And, if so, then would the recommendation be to go to the AVP or something like this HDMI 4K HDR Switch?

 

[Satanica]

16 hours ago, zydeco said:

Thinks have, in a sense, moved on in that we have decided that, for now, a 2.0 or 2.2 (adding subs) set-up is all that is required although this might change down the track when renovations are completed. The big change, though, is that all the various speakers and amps have been sold off being replaced with Dutch & Dutch 8c which have turned out to be a major upgrade as well as the highest WAF speakers that I've ever had! The A/V front-end is lean with Apple TV, Fetch TV and Console all direct to TV via HDMI with optical out sent to a mini-DSP DDRC-22D that sends a room corrected digital (AES) to the speakers.

 

All this works well but there is a nagging question about using an AV Pre-Pro or AVR. The major advantages would look to be avoiding the TV in the audio chain, adding more HDMI inputs (which I could do via a switch) and either including the LFE in the down-mix or adding a dedicated LFE channel. All this is made a bit more difficult in that the requirement for balanced inputs on the 8c sees the need for more expensive AV Pre-Pro. My thinking is it doesn't make sense to replace the front-end given the current 2.0 set-up and that the real decision is whether to make the move to a 2.1 set-up which would entail purchase of a sub + AVP. Does this sound right? Or, alternatively, is moving audio away from the TV likely to be a big benefit? And, if so, then would the recommendation be to go to the AVP or something like this HDMI 4K HDR Switch?

 

 

Well done the the 8c's. My thoughts about your setup and options below.

 

If you add a Pre-Pro or AVR and using the balanced inputs on your 8c's you'll be adding a DA/AD conversion compared to the AES/EBU input.

 

One of the main reasons I've stuck with a HTPC and JRiver especially is the ability to down-mix to 2.0 and now 4.0 including the LFE (.1) channel into my mains (L R). Using the JRiver WDM driver you can even do this with other apps (e.g. Netflix, Spotify). At the moment it's quite likely you're missing out on the LFE channel with your current setup.

 

I know there is a sub-woofer output on the 8c's. Have you considered utilising it somehow? Of course you will still most likely have the missing LFE issue.

[zydeco]

18 hours ago, Satanica said:

If you add a Pre-Pro or AVR and using the balanced inputs on your 8c's you'll be adding a DA/AD conversion compared to the AES/EBU input.

Agreed - the question is the impact of the extra conversion for AV (noting that it's not an issue for music). 

 

18 hours ago, Satanica said:

One of the main reasons I've stuck with a HTPC and JRiver especially is the ability to down-mix to 2.0 and now 4.0 including the LFE (.1) channel into my mains (L R). Using the JRiver WDM driver you can even do this with other apps (e.g. Netflix, Spotify). At the moment it's quite likely you're missing out on the LFE channel with your current setup.

 

Yes, I've set Apple TV to down-mix to stereo which, as I understand it, means that the LFE (.1) is lost and the same is true for Fetch TV. The idea of a HTPC / JRiver set-up would solve the problem but,having used this set-up for several years, I've dropped it as not being a workable solution for family usage (as I found that I kept on getting call upon to deal with issues whether these being at the OS level or, more often, struggling switching between apps).

 

There don't seem to be many other options for an all digital set-up. One idea might be to use mini-DSP nanoavr-hd to wrap the LFE (.1) into the Left / Right but this unit is limited to HDMI 1.4 and I'm not sure if the simple approach to the down-mix is correct.

 

18 hours ago, Satanica said:

I know there is a sub-woofer output on the 8c's. Have you considered utilising it somehow? Of course you will still most likely have the missing LFE issue.

 

Yes, the lowest box count solution is to use the sub-out of the 8c with this simplifying volume control but requiring that the DSP on-board the 8c deals with the <300Hz room EQ. If, though, we go ahead with a Pre-Pro, then the option exists to use a sub for a dedicated LFE (.1) channel.  

 

[Satanica]

10 hours ago, zydeco said:

Agreed - the question is the impact of the extra conversion for AV (noting that it's not an issue for music). 

It's an issue for music videos.

 

10 hours ago, zydeco said:

There don't seem to be many other options for an all digital set-up. One idea might be to use mini-DSP nanoavr-hd to wrap the LFE (.1) into the Left / Right but this unit is limited to HDMI 1.4 and I'm not sure if the simple approach to the down-mix is correct.

Yes the options are few and far between. That looks like a good unit. Just an idea, you could split your HDMI signal sending one to your video display and one to the this unit (mini-DSP nanoAVR-HD). Then from the HDMI output of the mini-DSP nanoAVR-HD use some sort of HDMI audio extractor to SPDIF and then convert to AES/EBU and be able to switch with your "music" source. Wow, getting complicated.

 

Can you switch between the AES/EBU and Analog Balanced input with the 8C phone app or something?

And/Or will they do it automatically on what input signal they're receiving?

Edited December 10, 2018 by Satanica

[Bunno77]

Linn Majik/Akurate DSM . Moon 390P. Primare SP33? 

[davewantsmoore]

On 08/12/2018 at 6:58 PM, zydeco said:

All this is made a bit more difficult in that the requirement for balanced inputs on the 8c sees the need for more expensive AV Pre-Pro.

No need.    Drive the differential (balanced) input with a your single ended (unbalanced) source.

 

https://www.rane.com/note110.html

 

#17

On 08/12/2018 at 6:58 PM, zydeco said:

Or, alternatively, is moving audio away from the TV likely to be a big benefit?

Very hard to generalise..... What is the quality of the digital output signal from your TV?    If it's not perfect, then what is the ability of the next device to handle that?

 

[zydeco]

On 10/12/2018 at 2:28 PM, Satanica said:

Can you switch between the AES/EBU and Analog Balanced input with the 8C phone app or something?

And/Or will they do it automatically on what input signal they're receiving?

 

No. There is one input on the speaker which is set to AES/EBU or Analogue on the web-app. 

 

On 10/12/2018 at 2:36 PM, Bunno77 said:

Linn Majik/Akurate DSM . Moon 390P. Primare SP33? 

Thanks. I'll take a look.

 

On 10/12/2018 at 2:54 PM, davewantsmoore said:

No need.    Drive the differential (balanced) input with a your single ended (unbalanced) source.

 

https://www.rane.com/note110.html

 

#17

Very hard to generalise..... What is the quality of the digital output signal from your TV?    If it's not perfect, then what is the ability of the next device to handle that?

 

 

Not sure re digital quality but, whilst I don't subscribe to massive differences in digital devices, I'm using a cheap Panasonic Plasma TV with optical out to mini-DSP. My guess is that the main benefit of adding an AVR or Pre-Pro would be the ability to include LFE (.1) channel in the stereo down-mix (as opposed to reduced jitter) and that in all likely-hood the subsequent A to D conversion at the speaker would be transparent. Your information on the RCA to Balanced has me more interested in this option as it opens up a number of reasonably priced options including the NAD T758V3.

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

the main benefit of adding an AVR or Pre-Pro would be the ability to include LFE (.1) channel in the stereo down-mix

Not usually.

 

It is industry practise to discard the LFE channel when doing a 2 channel mix.

 

Content producers are advised to put all bass in the left right (and other) channels .... and to only put low frequency special effects in the LFE channel..... with the idea being that discarding the LFE channel will no discard anything of importance.

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

NAD T758V3.

I just bought one of these ... and I am going to do exactly that with some of the channels.

 

 

It's a bit complex .... one day I will put up a "my system" thread.

 

I'll have .....

Rear channels preouts of NAD 758 RCA to balanced inputs of DAW

Firewire from DAW into computer

AES SPDIF from the computer to the rear of the room

Amplifiers have AES digital inputs

 

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

... it opens up a number of reasonably priced options including the NAD T758V3.

More than a reasonable price!

[zydeco]

 

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Not usually.

 

It is industry practise to discard the LFE channel when doing a 2 channel mix.

 

Content producers are advised to put all bass in the left right (and other) channels .... and to only put low frequency special effects in the LFE channel..... with the idea being that discarding the LFE channel will no discard anything of importance.

Oh - I assumed that the benefit of an AVR / Pre-Pro would be that it'd allow me to include the LFE in a downmix. Is that wrong? If so, then my current set-up (which uses optical out of the TV) is probably the best solution.

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

More than a reasonable price!

Yes, just saw that. Trying to get a handle on whether this will include LFE in downmix for those of us that are, right now, limited to 2 channel stereo.

[Satanica]

6 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Oh - I assumed that the benefit of an AVR / Pre-Pro would be that it'd allow me to include the LFE in a downmix. Is that wrong?

I think they generally do allow that.

[Snoopy8]

18 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Yes, just saw that. Trying to get a handle on whether this will include LFE in downmix for those of us that are, right now, limited to 2 channel stereo.

Yes it does. 

 

The "prize" is Dirac Live (should upgrade to full version for USD100) which does an excellent job for both movies and 2 channel.

[powerav]

43 minutes ago, zydeco said:

I assumed that the benefit of an AVR / Pre-Pro would be that it'd allow me to include the LFE in a downmix

Yes most AVR's will have a DIRECT mode plus subwoofer.

[zydeco]

15 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

More than a reasonable price!

Yes, it's hard to resist at that price .... so I didn't resist. 

[davewantsmoore]

18 hours ago, zydeco said:

Oh - I assumed that the benefit of an AVR / Pre-Pro would be that it'd allow me to include the LFE in a downmix. Is that wrong?

It's unusual.   Check the settings of the AVR in question.

 

I assume you mean mix a X.1 format into 2.0, with the 2.0 including the LFE mixed into the main speakers.

 

If you mean mix any format into 2.1 .... then, yes - AVRs will do that.    They'll keep the LFE (if present) in the .1 channel, and will also mix in any bass from the main channels into the .1 speaker.

18 hours ago, zydeco said:

Yes, just saw that. Trying to get a handle on whether this will include LFE in downmix for those of us that are, right now, limited to 2 channel stereo.

Your TV is very unlikely to preserve the LFE channel in a stereo mix is sends out via SPDIF.    It is the industry standard to discard it.... and its expected that it doesn't contain anything important.

 

 

I suspect other posters have misunderstood your question   

[zydeco]

3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

It's unusual.   Check the settings of the AVR in question.

 

I assume you mean mix a X.1 format into 2.0, with the 2.0 including the LFE mixed into the main speakers.

 

If you mean mix any format into 2.1 .... then, yes - AVRs will do that.    They'll keep the LFE (if present) in the .1 channel, and will also mix in any bass from the main channels into the .1 speaker.

Your TV is very unlikely to preserve the LFE channel in a stereo mix is sends out via SPDIF.    It is the industry standard to discard it.... and its expected that it doesn't contain anything important.

 

 

I suspect other posters have misunderstood your question   

 

The issue I was attempting to clarify was, as you mentioned, whether LFE (.1) is down-mixed on an AVR - which, as you point out, is different to whether it's included in 2.1. That said, I'm fine either way as the NAD T758V3 was at a great price as has a number of benefits in my set-up including option to simply testing surround sound options and, possibly, a dedicated LFE (.1) for movies.

[davewantsmoore]

52 minutes ago, zydeco said:

NAD T758V3

I got one new for $1800 (thanks eBay sales) .... it was hard to pass up.

Edited December 15, 2018 by davewantsmoore

[zydeco]

Agree with the rear surrounds mounted on the ceiling zydeco . Since you prefer music over movies Ide go with the ITU speaker placement recommendations rather than the dolby ones [ if only to give you more leeway due to angles ]
http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/surround-sound-speaker-placement/#
 
As to atmos this would be a 5.1.2 setup at the most ; good quality speakers is what I would place initially for the bed speakers and worry about object audio when you change rooms - or reutilise your l/r surrounds as ceiling speakers in another configuration ie atmos sometime in the future [ get the impression its a step in the water so to speak  ]
 

Now that I’ve picked up the NAD T758V3 I’m keen to revisit the option of surround speakers. I’m unable to get a matching centre speaker for the 8c, and these speakers are exceptional with vocals, so am thinking that I’d set this aside for now.

The surrounds remain an option but will be close to the listening position (1.5m) and will make the room a bit odd but remains preferred option if I can make it work due to the flexibility. On the option of leaves ceiling mounted surrounds, however, is this a good solution or not worth the effort? And, if I were to adopt the above setup, then is it correct that these could be used for Atmos speakers without a change of position should I solve the problem of l/r sides? Or would I need to move these ceiling speakers?

[cwt]

3 hours ago, zydeco said:

The surrounds remain an option but will be close to the listening position (1.5m) and will make the room a bit odd but remains preferred option if I can make it work due to the flexibility. On the option of leaves ceiling mounted surrounds, however, is this a good solution or not worth the effort? And, if I were to adopt the above setup, then is it correct that these could be used for Atmos speakers without a change of position should I solve the problem of l/r sides? Or would I need to move these ceiling speakers?

Which speakers will be the L/R surrounds zydeco ? With your considerable distance behind the couch and the l/r surrounds a reasonable distance behind [ so the couch doesn't cop it] I wouldn't go more than 5.1.2 as the atmos speakers need a good percentage of off center positioning in relation to the bed channels . And the 758 is compatible with this without extra power amps. Hopefully dolbys pdf is doable 

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5.1.2-overhead-speaker-setup-guide.pdf

 

[zydeco]

56 minutes ago, cwt said:

Which speakers will be the L/R surrounds zydeco ? With your considerable distance behind the couch and the l/r surrounds a reasonable distance behind [ so the couch doesn't cop it] I wouldn't go more than 5.1.2 as the atmos speakers need a good percentage of off center positioning in relation to the bed channels . And the 758 is compatible with this without extra power amps. Hopefully dolbys pdf is doable 

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5.1.2-overhead-speaker-setup-guide.pdf

 

 

Thanks. My read of the 5.1.2 set-up is that the following speakers are possible: (2) left / right speakers, (4) sub-woofer, and (6) left / right top middle overhead. The issue is (5) left / right surrounds as the floor-stand or book-shelf speakers will intrude into the room if placed correctly so the options are a) place on the correct angle but close to lounge, b) use overhead speakers for left / right surrounds or c) ditch the idea altogether.  I don't, as yet, have speakers for the left / right surround so - if I do go for normal speakers - would look to choose a floor stand speaker that has drivers above the level of the back of the couch; e.g., devialet phantom on stand (not suggesting this is the answer but illustrative of the option). I'm not sure which option a-c is the best compromise and, if it's (b) or (c) then I think I have heard that that precludes use of the middle overhead but am not sure.

[zydeco]

7 hours ago, zydeco said:

 

Thanks. My read of the 5.1.2 set-up is that the following speakers are possible: (2) left / right speakers, (4) sub-woofer, and (6) left / right top middle overhead. The issue is (5) left / right surrounds as the floor-stand or book-shelf speakers will intrude into the room if placed correctly so the options are a) place on the correct angle but close to lounge, b) use overhead speakers for left / right surrounds or c) ditch the idea altogether.  I don't, as yet, have speakers for the left / right surround so - if I do go for normal speakers - would look to choose a floor stand speaker that has drivers above the level of the back of the couch; e.g., devialet phantom on stand (not suggesting this is the answer but illustrative of the option). I'm not sure which option a-c is the best compromise and, if it's (b) or (c) then I think I have heard that that precludes use of the middle overhead but am not sure.

 

I've taken a cold hard look at the space and don't believe that floor-standing l/r surrounds (5) are a real option, that is, I could get speakers to be on the correct angle but these would need to be close to the lounge which presents a number of issues including limits the number of seated positions that benefit. It is possible, though, to put in ceiling speakers  with, this being the case, the two questions being 1) is there much benefit in l/r surrounds in the ceiling (just for movies) and 2) does this invalidate use of left / right top middle overhead? 

[Snoopy8]

How often do you watch movies? If not often, you could use small surrounds on stands and move the right surround into place when required?  A pain but will work.

 

You could use directional ceiling speakers for the rear but it will be a compromise especially for multi channel music. 

[betty boop]

5.1 with in ceilings that’s it as mentioned at start of this thread. That is if floor standing bed/on wall  surrounds are not and option.

 

with in ceiling surrounds for 5.1 you the. Can not do top middle heights or top rear heights. As there will be no height differential between your in ceiling surrounds and in ceiling “heights” to make them heights. I hope makes sense

[zydeco]

18 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

How often do you watch movies? If not often, you could use small surrounds on stands and move the right surround into place when required?  A pain but will work.

 

You could use directional ceiling speakers for the rear but it will be a compromise especially for multi channel music. 

 

We watch 1 to 2 movies a week (including a weekly family movie night) but don't do multi-channel music. Would you recommend decent, directional, ceilings or small, movable, surrounds given this use case?

 

4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

5.1 with in ceilings that’s it as mentioned at start of this thread. That is if floor standing bed/on wall  surrounds are not and option.

 

with in ceiling surrounds for 5.1 you the. Can not do top middle heights or top rear heights. As there will be no height differential between your in ceiling surrounds and in ceiling “heights” to make them heights. I hope makes sense

Understood