Devialet Owners & Discussion Thread

[Guest scumbag]

6 minutes ago, Nap250 said:

To my mind it's what works best in your space. The Vitus is a very nice amp, but try lifting it to manoeuvre into a tight place. 

 

I wouldn't go for the Chord as the Devialet was superior to my hearing and taste. Remember this is all personal opinion and taste. 

As I've said, opinions are strictly vetted on SNA. You'll need to make sure you did DBT tests and you can't simply say something is a matter of taste cause' that's not measurable. 

[PKay]

22 minutes ago, scumbag said:

I think it were meant in humer....

Ahhh, my bad as they say these days.

[Guest scumbag]

On 15/04/2017 at 8:45 AM, Addicted to music said:

 

The DAC chip used in the Top of the line Devialet is a cheap BB PCM 1792 and it's not the top of the BB range of dac chips.  We can see that as DAC chips evolved, the top of the line in every brand gets better in specs and also bring benefits to the SQ department.  The Devialet benefit of utilising DAC in the digital domain is that the chip is apparently only 4" away from the speaker output terminals, one very short path.

It may not be as compact or as pretty and tick the WAF box, but you can do a lot with $12k.   

You see Devialet products here in the classified only because the owners want to be owners of the upper end of the  Devialet food chain..  And of course if at the end of the day it appeals to niche market, I'm sure the company will survive despite what other thinks.  Just remember in 5, 10, 15 years time, class D would evolve to the point where it may even make the triditiona A/B or pure class A and valves redundant....  simply because the box to tick now is more power efficient products!   But not only that if the current product did fail in the 5 - 10 yrs then it's like that you won't be repairing it, you'll be considering the product range then as class D pregresses.  

 

The PCM 1792 is quite old and in fact it shows as a superseded model on the Texas Instruments website but that doesn't automatically mean that it is in any way "inferior" to newer chips. It might not sport the S/N or dynamic range figures of newer efforts but it is still a good sounding chip. I believe it was implemented as it was able to drive the preamp section of Devialet directly and it sounded good in the ADH configuration. You simply can't achieve (OK, you might somehow but at MASSIVE expense) the real-world S/N or dynamic range figures with a conventional DAC / Amplifier (class D or otherwise) that the Devialet does.

As for it being "cheap" -  most mainstream DAC chips are comparatively cheap in relation to all the other stuff around them in a DAC / amp.

I have heard a few people talk about the Expert and Pro series as a method of Devialet getting the world's attention. Followed up by the (slightly) more mainstream Phantom. I think there is a lot of truth in that. Devialet makes no secret of their desire to dominate the market and they're not really going to do it with $9000+ amplifiers. They must have a master plan and it's going to involve dipping further down the price scale to attract larger audiences. 

[Addicted to music]

11 hours ago, scumbag said:

The PCM 1792 is quite old and in fact it shows as a superseded model on the Texas Instruments website but that doesn't automatically mean that it is in any way "inferior" to newer chips. It might not sport the S/N or dynamic range figures of newer efforts but it is still a good sounding chip. I believe it was implemented as it was able to drive the preamp section of Devialet directly and it sounded good in the ADH configuration. You simply can't achieve (OK, you might somehow but at MASSIVE expense) the real-world S/N or dynamic range figures with a conventional DAC / Amplifier (class D or otherwise) that the Devialet does.

As for it being "cheap" -  most mainstream DAC chips are comparatively cheap in relation to all the other stuff around them in a DAC / amp.

I have heard a few people talk about the Expert and Pro series as a method of Devialet getting the world's attention. Followed up by the (slightly) more mainstream Phantom. I think there is a lot of truth in that. Devialet makes no secret of their desire to dominate the market and they're not really going to do it with $9000+ amplifiers. They must have a master plan and it's going to involve dipping further down the price scale to attract larger audiences. 

 

The PCM 1792 is not exactly been discontinued, it's followed up with a PCM1792A pin compatible to other PCM 1794/1795.   If you look into the mouser site it's around $20-40US .    The PCM 1792 is still available on many sites thst open to other suggestions.

Ive actually played with the previous version PCM 1798.  Intilaly 1st impressions would tell you it's a nice sounding chip.  But just like everything else as you compare to other chips and DA converters it lacks the resolution just like many of the other BB opamps, but that's just me, so I move on.  

 

 

 

 

 

[ThirdDrawerDown]

>BB

 

sorry for my ignorance, what is BB in this context?

[Guest scumbag]

Bumbags. 

Big boobs

Burr brown

One of the above is the real answer.

Edited April 17, 2017 by scumbag

[Guest scumbag]

9 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

 

The PCM 1792 is not exactly been discontinued, it's followed up with a PCM1792A pin compatible to other PCM 1794/1795.   If you look into the mouser site it's around $20-40US .    The PCM 1792 is still available on many sites thst open to other suggestions.

Ive actually played with the previous version PCM 1798.  Intilaly 1st impressions would tell you it's a nice sounding chip.  But just like everything else as you compare to other chips and DA converters it lacks the resolution just like many of the other BB opamps, but that's just me, so I move on.  

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone who has heard a PCM1792 in use in the Devialet would describe it as lacking resolution. So as per all DAC chips, it is about implementation.

Edited April 17, 2017 by scumbag

[Doctor Faustus]

@wikeeboy Totally agree with your view, even if it did not sound like it. You buy it and enjoy it and if you want you can upgrade it or simply buy another one.

My question in the first place (when I first posted here about his issue) was that it is a high buy in price and there is an expectation of continued support - will it be there 10-15 years later or will they have moved on to later models and not be providing updates for the old ones eg say I have a 200 pro and in 12 years some new format comes out,call it DSD superdupaPLUSAA  - will you be able to get a s/w u/g for the 200 pro in 2027 so that you can decode DSD superdupaPLUSAA?? Devialet may no longer be supporting that model as they may have moved on  by multiple models. Good example of this is Logitech Squeezebox where it fell on to the wider community to continue providing software (and only because code was available)  whereas Meridian DSP gear ...well what happened to promised upgrades to their DACs? (Another example:  I have a Meridian DSP 5000 now some 12 years old - it can do 24/96  ...maybe I am being dumb and it would need a hardware upgrade??? )

So if you buy a Devialet for $15k in a shop the write down is a lot more than you mention.

[wikeeboy]

With all due respect, do you really think you can hold any company down to where they will be or what their support will be in 12 years? If you're looking that far ahead, just buy a well made pre/power that @Zaphod Beeblebrox recommends from a servicing point of view and swap in/out your dac as tech changes.

 

Sticking to the Dev, all of it's firmware changes have previously supported 'old' models. One of the nice things also is that although the D-Premier became a D250, which can now be upgraded to a D250 pro, if you didn't do the upgrade from D-Prem to D250, Devialet are allowing D-Prem owners to upgrade directly to the Pro.

 

With an outlook of 10+ years i'd be concerned about buying most digital gear these days! 

 

[Guest scumbag]

Just got this email:   The Expert Pro Upgrade program will end soon

All good things must come to an end.   The Expert Pro upgrade is is a major hardware and software Upgrade pushing the boundaries of audiophile pleasure, improving performance at all power levels. New motherboard with all Devialet key-technology components. New Class-A amp. New Magic Wire® (Digital-Analog conversion). New power supply. New Class-D amp. New architecture, Devialet OS ready. New firmware. New Devialet OS board, which will be offered to you for free as soon as it is this year.   On 15th May 2017, the Expert Pro Upgrade will come to an end.  ORDER YOUR UPGRADE NOW

[Doctor Faustus]

@wikeeboyDamn sure I can expect a company selling very expensive gear to be supporting equipment 12 and even more years from now!!!! If you buy a Mercedes or Mack truck you can expect parts and servicing for a long time - and the same for most cars (except of course De Lorean - ha ha : though now there a re 3rd party manufacturers making them again!!)

I think there that some hi-fi manufacturers get away with murder charging so much and then not providing long term support - and it is the consumers that let them do that. And I am one of those foolish consumers. Oh what the heck it is $18,000 - just let it degrade and throw it out ...

Damn sure I expect support for a top end product 15 years from now  ie  if the product is meant to last that long it should be supported

The of course I might have misunderstood and what people are saying is that a Devialet amp is not meant to last 15 years

[Sir Triode]

The use of SMD components in a very small form factor (exerbating heat issues) using SMPS. I have my doubts on the longevity of the Devialet units lasting past 10 years under daily use unless they are spec'd with high tolerance parts. 

[Pim]

The small form factor shouldn't be an issue; the case is the heat sink. If you take an ordinary heat sink inside an amp they're usually much smaller than a Devialet case. So it's quite possible that the Devialet case actually does a better job of heat dissipating than most amps. They've been around for 7 years now and I've yet to read about reliability issues. 

 

 

[Guest scumbag]

23 minutes ago, Sir Triode said:

The use of SMD components in a very small form factor (exerbating heat issues) using SMPS. I have my doubts on the longevity of the Devialet units lasting past 10 years under daily use unless they are spec'd with high tolerance parts. 

The Devialet gets to about 50-55 centigrade when running full bore for extended periods of time. Most quality components are going to be derated above about 80 centagrade - at a guess. The SMPS is why it runs cool which gets around the form factor. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by scumbag

[Guest Clarence]

Yeah, tech. based digital and computer processing is always going to be a chase. Best thing to do is have your foundation, the engine, the pre./power/maybe integrated/speakers/cables and swap in and out the front end gear. Your foundation, unless there is a fidget aspect to a character, will/could last for many years. Then you know and live the sound. Another reasonable stable will be a vinyl rig, if that's your thing. Once you're settled on one of these they will also go for years. But digital, I feel your pain. Lower your costs if you are a true breed of chaser for the latest and greatest, always plugging to your decision for your foundation rig engine. Of course, if you're talking about 50K front-enders to 200K foundation back-enders not sure why you'd even be asking. Diavalenttalentalent, not sure, very popular in Poland. I love stereo gear though. I suppose my opinion is in that statement.

 

[Saunter]

I don't know what is going on with my system. 

 

Recently  turned my LE 200 into a LE 400.. I really don't like the sound.

 

Somehow the sound has hardened up and is flat. The mid range has a kind of glare and separation is worse. There is no treble sweetness.

It sounds like ass.

There is more detail, yes.. the bass is better, yes... but every other area has gone backwards. There is no depth to the sound stage whatsoever.

I just don't have any idea why and i feel incredibly disappointed. 

 

Maybe the 400 shows up all other deficiencies more... or something... or maybe the companion is faulty.

I just don't know what to do to get the sound i want.  

 

The only thing that has really changed other than adding a companion is the power cords.

I was feeding the LE 200 via a Less Loss DFPC but since i only had one i am feeding the master and slave with Furutech 314 Ag cords.

 

Surely it couldn't all be because of that.... could it ?

 

I do suspect i need a speaker upgrade too. Currently using Lenehan ML2 Reference. Maybe they don't suit Devialet but i always found them a bit dry.

Or maybe i just don't like the Devialet sound... and now i have a 400 i am getting more of it.

 

Gaaaaah... exasperated given the money that has gone into this.. 

 

Help.. suggestions ??

 

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

5 hours ago, Saunter said:

I don't know what is going on with my system. 

 

Recently  turned my LE 200 into a LE 400.. I really don't like the sound.

 

 

 

 

Devialet build excellent sounding products. However, like all audio products they are not perfect. When operating any amplifier in bridge mode (which is what happens when you add a second amplifier to your existing Devialet), you place much greater demands on the current capability of the two amplifiers. Devialet choose not to publish a full set of specs with their amplifiers, so it is difficult to ascertain the true abilities of their products, when driving low impedance loads. The one figure which sets some alarms ringing for me, is that the maximum power capacity of the power supply is 600 Watts continuous. Under perfect conditions, this will limit maximum continuous power at 300 Watts/channel. From this data, one can assume some difficulties will be expected if the amp is operated in bridge mode with speakers with an impedance of less than around 6 Ohms. 

[PKay]

6 hours ago, Saunter said:

I don't know what is going on with my system. 

 

Recently  turned my LE 200 into a LE 400.. I really don't like the sound.

 

Somehow the sound has hardened up and is flat. The mid range has a kind of glare and separation is worse. There is no treble sweetness.

It sounds like ass.

There is more detail, yes.. the bass is better, yes... but every other area has gone backwards. There is no depth to the sound stage whatsoever.

I just don't have any idea why and i feel incredibly disappointed. 

 

Maybe the 400 shows up all other deficiencies more... or something... or maybe the companion is faulty.

I just don't know what to do to get the sound i want.  

 

The only thing that has really changed other than adding a companion is the power cords.

I was feeding the LE 200 via a Less Loss DFPC but since i only had one i am feeding the master and slave with Furutech 314 Ag cords.

 

Surely it couldn't all be because of that.... could it ?

 

I do suspect i need a speaker upgrade too. Currently using Lenehan ML2 Reference. Maybe they don't suit Devialet but i always found them a bit dry.

Or maybe i just don't like the Devialet sound... and now i have a 400 i am getting more of it.

 

Gaaaaah... exasperated given the money that has gone into this.. 

 

Help.. suggestions ??

 

 

My experience when auditioning the 200/400 was not the same as your case. I have ML1 Ref speakers so I guess they would have a similar "house" sound. There definitely was an improvement in bass and control over the speakers and no detriment at all to the sound stage. We found it extended outside the speakers and was deep.

 

I tried a couple of different power cords and couldn't hear any difference so I doubt it is the cords. 

 

What I did find initially (not the case any more) was that the internal dac didn't sound anywhere near as good as my Meitner. I would suggest trying an external dac and if you are already doing that then swapping to the internal dac. 

 

Also Devialet are very good at responding to queries so send them a note as well.

 

The Lenehans are not a warm speaker so if you are after a warmer sound see if you can borrow some Harbeth speakers.

 

Good luck.  

[Doctor Faustus]

@Pim@scumbag temperature is vital for electronic components - that is why computers degrade and especially laptops where ventilation is a problem - I can see for the Devialet this will be a problem, at least for any memory chips and processors - no matter if components are rated at 80c they degrade over time with heat so ventilation to keep at their coolest is most important - this is why desktops last longer than laptops and  --- desktops have much better capacity to install efficient cooling systems.

Check with anyone running high power PCs re temperature and cooling - they spend a lot of time and money on cooling design and the cases take this into account as well - so this really does apply to the Deviantlet

Important bit of information re heat sinks: To say the case is a heat sink is not to say this is an efficient cooling system - unless of course there is thermal paste between the elements eg components such as ICs/CPU/memory chips and the case itself - otherwise it is a heat trap not a heat sink!!!!!

THANK YOU for bringing this up as I had not even thought of this aspect of this small form amplifier.

This would definitely shorten their life - so if you have money to burn (literally) you can happily use a Deviantlet.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Toyboyo

[Guest scumbag]

13 minutes ago, Toyboyo said:

@Pim@scumbag temperature is vital for electronic components - that is why computers degrade and especially laptops where ventilation is a problem - I can see for the Devialet this will be a problem, at least for any memory chips and processors - no matter if components are rated at 80c they degrade over time with heat so ventilation to keep at their coolest is most important - this is why desktops last longer than laptops and  --- desktops have much better capacity to install efficient cooling systems.

Check with anyone running high power PCs re temperature and cooling - they spend a lot of time and money on cooling design and the cases take this into account as well - so this really does apply to the Deviantlet

Important bit of information re heat sinks: To say the case is a heat sink is not to say this is an efficient cooling system - unless of course there is thermal paste between the elements eg components such as ICs/CPU/memory chips and the case itself - otherwise it is a heat trap not a heat sink!!!!!

THANK YOU for bringing this up as I had not even thought of this aspect of this small form amplifier.

This would definitely shorten their life - so if you have money to burn (literally) you can happily use a Deviantlet.

I'll be blunt. I'm not quite quite what your motivation is for posting on this thread. I believe you have no intention of buying a Devaliet and all you have been doing is posting things that seem to be crapping them as a brand. I think the intention of this thread is to discuss the brand in general terms but what are you bringing to the table? I will assume you have no direct experience with them, based on your remarks so you seem to be just guessing about how they work or perform.

The Devialet runs cool. Cooler than a lot of other amps that I've owned. Have you owned or used a valve amp' or true class-A amp' by any chance? What ambient temperature do you think they run at? Do you hear people trashing brands or the whole amplifier topology based on that issue? 
I had the Devialet in my office running all day at a reasonable volume. I did a check on the info readout to check temperatures. It was sitting at 35 degrees. That's 13 degrees about ambient. What's the "issue" here?

Oh, and since I haven't shell out the money to buy one, I am not trying to justify my purchase.

Edited April 27, 2017 by scumbag

[Guest scumbag]

1 hour ago, Nap250 said:

My experience when auditioning the 200/400 was not the same as your case. I have ML1 Ref speakers so I guess they would have a similar "house" sound. There definitely was an improvement in bass and control over the speakers and no detriment at all to the sound stage. We found it extended outside the speakers and was deep.

 

I tried a couple of different power cords and couldn't hear any difference so I doubt it is the cords. 

 

What I did find initially (not the case any more) was that the internal dac didn't sound anywhere near as good as my Meitner. I would suggest trying an external dac and if you are already doing that then swapping to the internal dac. 

 

Also Devialet are very good at responding to queries so send them a note as well.

 

The Lenehans are not a warm speaker so if you are after a warmer sound see if you can borrow some Harbeth speakers.

 

Good luck.  

You can't bypass in the internal DAC though. All analogue is fed via the DAC. All you will be doing by using an external DAC is adding the "flavour" of the sound of that DAC to the Devialet's.

Edited April 27, 2017 by scumbag

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

@Toyboyo

 

The vast majority of semiconductors are rated at a maximum operational temperature of 175 degrees C. However, as a general rule, any semiconductor which has to operate at temperatures in excess of around 75 degrees C will likely suffer some reliability issues, along with solder joint problems. Below this temperature is usually fine. Electrolytic caps are, however, a much more serious problem. Most decent caps are rated at 105 degrees C and lesser quality ones are rated at 85 degrees C. Capacitor manufacturers rate their caps for XXXX hours @ XXX degrees C. (say: 5,000 hours @ 105 degrees C). However, at lower temps, electrolytic caps will last much longer than the minimum hours specified. At 50 degrees C, the above cap may last 20,000 hours. 

[Doctor Faustus]

Dear @scumbag

No need to get upset or emotional over your choice of gear or mine. I am trying to make a buyer's decision and have asked people for their opinion and voiced my concerns over new tech so as to hear their views on these concerns. As a matter of fact that is why I started this thread (some people did not know that as it is a lot to read!!)

I have not anywhere trashed the amplifiers..as a matter of fact I said that for a good price I would buy one-- so you have not read my posts obviously. The price in my view needs to take in to account their length of life.

I have read everyone's experience and the comments about temperature alarm me and I have said so - if the case gets hot and there is no room for ventilation then my comments re degradation are a fair point and I welcome views on this

@Zaphod Beeblebrox Z:  I am commenting about CPUs and RAM which are far more sensitive to temperature and degrade over time with heat.  "Old time" amps which heat up significantly do not have these components and when one brings up valves is heat not one of the things that degrades them?

Edited April 27, 2017 by Toyboyo

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

@Toyboyo

 

There are very few electronic products that have good ventilation for all internal components, UNLESS they are fitted with fan cooling. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, Toyboyo said:

 

@Zaphod Beeblebrox Z:  I am commenting about ICs and CPUs and RAM which are far more sensitive to temperature and degrade over time with heat.  "Old time" amps which heat up significantly do not have these components and when one brings up valves is heat not one of the things that degrades them?

 

Here are the specs on a standard CMOS gate product (not MIL-SPEC):

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4012b.pdf

 

You'll note the maximum operating temperature range is to 125 degrees C.

 

Here are the specs on the Intel Atom processor range:

https://ark.intel.com/products/84311/Intel-Atom-Processor-E3805-1M-Cache-1_33-GHz

 

Maximum junction temperature (typically 10 degrees C cooler than package temperature) is 110 degrees C. 

 

Again: Anything below 75 degrees C is quite safe. Of course SOA considerations for high current devices must be taken into account. 

 

Heat is a problem for ALL amplifiers. Including valve types. Heat will cause degradation of electrolytic capacitors in ALL electronic devices. Including valve amps. The valves, themselves, can typically operate at far higher temperatures quite safely. Not so much for components that may be inappropriately placed too close to those valves. 

 

Again: Fan cooling can solve many of these problems.