This is post 3 in the continuing saga of my 1st setup.

 

I am now the owner of some amazing looking speakers (awaiting an amp), and a Roon server.

 

Choices made so far are

Speakers: Whatmough Performance P12 with Impulse 2 Subwoofer

Amp: After a lot of reading, reviews and consideration, it's going to be a Bluesound Powernode as a starting point.

 

So while I await acquisition of the amp, the next thing to consider are speaker cables. Which caused a minor aneurysm after reading though specs, looking up explanations etc.

 

So please help me.  Product recommendations are ok, but even better is helping me learn what to avoid, and what to be sure I have. Brands to consider our avoid also recommended. 

 

I figured I'd start here... https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/339173-australian-new-zealand-made-cables/

 

I believe I need 2 cables per speaker & the separate subwoofer RCA via the Amp's dedicated sub out.

 

The system is not going to be moved about so I'm happy with whichever connectors are going to give good results.

 

Looking forward to the replies and suggestions. Thanks.

Duelund dual, tin plated copper in 12awg. or if bi-wiring....maybe 16awg one the highs and 12awg on the lows. Or you may prefer 12awg for both.

 

Bare end connect.

 

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/duelund-dual-dca12ga-tinned-multistrand-copper-wire-cotton-oil-insulated.html

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/duelund-dual-dca16ga-tinned-multistrand-copper-wire-cotton-oil-insulated.html

 

Review

https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/first-listen-the-new-duelund-dual-dca12ga-tinned-copper-speaker-cables/

 

You could make a sub-woofer interconnect from the same, comes in single runs also.

Edited August 12, 20232 yr by muon*

There are (some very) passionate views about this business. I'm in the camp that says something like Amazon Basics 12-Gauge Audio Speaker Wire Cable - 99.9% Oxygen-Free Copper, 100 Feet for about $70 will deliver what you need (you can add banana plugs etc as preferred - although bare wire works very nicely if things won't be moved/changed often).

At the very least I would install that and if you know someone with much higher priced cables of the same gauge that you can borrow to do some blind AB testing and see if you can hear the difference. I did that and I could not.

YMMV

I also noticed looking at your earlier posts that you had the EVO150 in mind and have shifted to the PowerNode - perhaps to put more of your budget into speakers? If so, good choice. I love researching and hunting for fun electronics but the whole 'speakers first' idea (both in terms of where you put most of your budget and what you select first) is definitely correct.  The Evo150 is lovely, it really is, but I own a PowerNode and it is great bang for buck - particularly in a system in a smaller space like an office (which I think you are planning) and a great unit to start HiFi life with. I have one in my study and use it all the time.  Very pleasant user experience.

Edited August 12, 20232 yr by tsfreo

8 hours ago, Single-Malt said:

Choices made so far are:

Speakers: Whatmough Performance P12 with Impulse 2 Subwoofer

Amp: After a lot of reading, reviews and consideration, it's going to be a Bluesound Powernode as a starting point.

 

3 hours ago, tsfreo said:

I also noticed looking at your earlier posts that you had the EVO150 in mind and have shifted to the PowerNode

 

If you really were considering the EVO 150, S-M ... I note that it is 150wpc - whereas the PowerNode is only 80wpc.

 

Now the only info about your Whatmough P12s that I can find ... is that they are nominally 8 ohms.  But given this comment:

 

 

 

 

... I suspect the amp which has a bigger PS (so it can drive low-impedance spkrs better than an amp which has a small PS) - ie. the EVO 150 - will make the P12s sound better than the PowerNode.  But yes, it's more expensive.  

 

Edited August 13, 20232 yr by andyr

13 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

 

If you really were considering the EVO 150, S-M ... I note that it is 150wpc - whereas the PowerNode is only 80wpc.

 

Now the only info about your Whatmough P12s that I can find ... is that they are nominally 8 ohms.  But given this comment:...

 

The label on mine say 150w and nominal 4 ohm

 

I think the Evo may have the power to destroy them with 250 into 4ohm?  Or at least I'm not yet sure at what point the amp gets to much for speakers.

Either way, the EVO may get be an upgrade. But for now the bank says Powernode

 

 

The speakers will support bi-wiring, but only one set of posts on the amp.

 

I gather the secret with cables used to get good current flow without the being so thick they're imparting additional impedance?

 

Looks like a whole range of price levels so wallet may have the deciding vote. For initial cables. The roll sounds appealing as I can make length to suit.

 

The Powernode seemed to fit the sweet spot for features/usability, quality and cost.

Plus I can use it as a streamer elsewhere in the house if I upgrade to other solutions for my main system.

37 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

 

If you really were considering the EVO 150, S-M ... I note that it is 150wpc - whereas the PowerNode is only 80wpc.

 

Now the only info about your Whatmough P12s that I can find ... is that they are nominally 8 ohms.  But given this comment:

 

 

 

 

... I suspect the amp which has a bigger PS (so it can drive low-impedance spkrs better than an amp which has a small PS) - ie. the EVO 150 - will make the P12s sound better than the PowerNode.  But yes, it's more expensive.  

 

 

There is a very big difference with the Powernode which is bass management.    When running a sub, the Powernode automatically high passes to the mains and low passes to the subwoofer which significantly reduces the demand on the amplifier.

 

You are absolutely right that EVO-150 is a superior unit, and will sound better, but the power differential is probably not as significant a factor as you are suspecting it may be.

 

In saying that it’s true that Whatmough performance range do tend to come alive with more power on tap.  But for a starter system, a 2.1 Whatmough system running off the Powernode not a bad plan at all.  Great thing is that when time comes to upgrade (if in fact it’s needed) it’s literally a just add speakers second system!

28 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

The label on mine say 150w and nominal 4 ohm

 

Aah, OK - so they really are 'hard to drive'.  

 

28 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

Either way, the EVO may get be an upgrade. But for now, the bank says Powernode.

 

Perfectly understand!  👍

 

28 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

I think the Evo may have the power to destroy them with 250 into 4ohm?  Or at least I'm not yet sure at what point the amp gets too much for speakers.

 

You seem to be getting confused about output power ratings.

 

What the 150w rating (into 8 ohms) tells you is that the EVO 150 is capable of delivering 150w into an 8 ohm resistor before it goes into clipping.  Doing the maths ... this means the PS in the amp can output 4.3a into an 8 ohm load, before it starts clipping.

 

If it's rated at 250w into 4 ohms - then it will be able to output 7.9a into a 4 ohm load, without clipping.

Note: these are max theoretical values obtained from the equations; real-world performance will be slightly under these theoretical numbers.

 

What you can deduce from the above is that 4 ohm spkrs draw much more current from an amp ... than 8 ohms spkrs do.  If the amp's PS is not capable of delivering the extra current into the lower impedance ... then it will clip.  It is clipping which destroys spkrs ... more than unclipped extra power.

 

However, what POV has just posted:

 

8 minutes ago, POV said:

There is a very big difference with the Powernode which is bass management.    When running a sub, the Powernode automatically high passes to the mains and low passes to the subwoofer which significantly reduces the demand on the amplifier.

 

... does change the story!  👍  Rolling off the low end of the mains (ie. "high passing") does reduce the power demands on the amplifier driving the mains - so the PowerNode may be adequate, with the P12s.  However, to be sure - it would be nice if the PowerNode's power delivery into a 4 ohm load was known.

 

 

Edited August 13, 20232 yr by andyr

57 minutes ago, andyr said:

However, to be sure - it would be nice if the PowerNode's power delivery into a 4 ohm load was known.

I know this is something you worry about a lot Andy…but not sure what the basis of your concern is.  I have 5 Powernodes in the house and 3 of them are running 4 ohm nominal speakers and have zero issues and all sound good.  

RE: power ratings.

 

I think I keep seeing speaker ratings as a top limit and anything over will cause damage.  Hence keep the amp at or under this.

 

Need to correct my thinking here. 

 

Performance may be sub optional with the Powernode but I'm thinking in a smaller room this may not be a huge issue to start with.  Speaking with the other half, she is keen for decent music in the living area, so this may be a proof of concept scenario. 

As far as load on the amp, does a higher bass crossover effectively mean less work for the amp. Meaning it can drive speakers more easily?

 

I'm obviously just making assumptions here, but if the amp has bass control, and the sub has a crossover control, do I just set sub to max and control crossover point from the amp? Assuming I then lower the sub setting once settled so it's not amplifying excess noise?

 

Lot of newbie questions I'm afraid.

I really appreciate all the advice and explanations

Edited August 13, 20232 yr by Single-Malt

16 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

RE: power ratings.

 

I think I keep seeing speaker ratings as a top limit and anything over will cause damage.  Hence keep the amp at or under this.

 

Need to correct my thinking here. 

 

Performance may be sub optional with the Powernode but I'm thinking in a smaller room this may not be a huge issue to start with.  Speaking with the other half, she is keen for decent music in the living area, so this may be a proof of concept scenario. 

Yes as per the other thread, you are more likely to damage speakers with an underpowered amplifier than an overpowered one.  I’m saying this, I don’t think you’ll need to worry about this with the p12 and the Powernode unless you are pushing up to extreme volume levels.

23 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

RE: power ratings.

 

I think I keep seeing speaker ratings as a top limit and anything over will cause damage.  Hence keep the amp at or under this.

 

Need to correct my thinking here. 

 

Performance may be sub optional with the Powernode but I'm thinking in a smaller room this may not be a huge issue to start with.  Speaking with the other half, she is keen for decent music in the living area, so this may be a proof of concept scenario. 

Quite the opposite, you are more likely to drive an amp into clipping and damage speakers using an amp that is too low in power, as the amp is unable to provide the power you are asking from it to reach listening levels.

If you use for instance speakers that are rather to up to 150w, you can use an amp capable of 500w as you will only ever use enough power to drive the speakers to listening levels.

Edited August 13, 20232 yr by muon*

Just now, POV said:

Yes as per the other thread, you are more likely to damage speakers with an underpowered amplifier than an overpowered one.  I’m saying this, I don’t think you’ll need to worry about this with the p12 and the Powernode unless you are pushing up to extreme volume levels.

 

That was my assumption here.

For my current space things seem to match at least, If not optimal.  Upgrades can be considered later to address shortcomings.

 

Not planning on Spinal Tap volume levels just yet. 

Now I've sat down and played with ohms law for a minute, I think I get it.

 

Higher wattage amp does the work more easily at a given resistance.  So the Powernode may just need higher volume/gain to get same/similar results as higher powered amp. May be mitigated a little with the sub taking the bass load.

 

Not expecting high end levels of awesomeness. But it's a step in that direction for now.

2 hours ago, andyr said:

... does change the story!  👍  Rolling off the low end of the mains (ie. "high passing") does reduce the power demands on the amplifier driving the mains - so the PowerNode may be adequate, with the P12s.  However, to be sure - it would be nice if the PowerNode's power delivery into a 4 ohm load was known.

I agree. The PowerNode has a high pass filter function which is very easy to use and makes sub integration even easier and use of the sub will take a good amount of load off the amp. Highly recommend that. Sub integration is a whole other exercise which takes some trial and error too.... 

 

Re the 4 ohm business, and this is from memory (plus I don't think Bluesound advertise this) - I think the power unit in the N330 powerNode is either the same or very similar to that in the NAD C368 integrated amp (which NAD does provide power ratings into 4 ohm). The NAD (and I expect same for the Bluesound) is a tailored implementation of Hypex UcD modules and that class D will handle 4 ohms.  I have both the NAD C368 and PowerNode and can attest to that capability.  Now all that doesn't mean that a PowerNode won't start to run out of puff earlier than a more powerful amp (whether in terms of watts or amps that the more powerful amplifier can deliver).  And it depends on your use case - how loud you want to listen, music types so the headroom needed to handle swings, size of room and such but I reckon a PowerNode is a capable performer in up to a (maybe smaller) medium sized space. The speakers the OP likes are pretty efficient (89 dB) so should make a decent amount of volume off a PowerNode. I for example have run Wharfedale Lintons which are also 89dB (nominally 6 ohm but might dip down to 3) and also older Krix Lyrix Golds off a PowerNode (and a C368). I admit that I do now use a 150w power amp because I find the extra power does provide something extra in terms of sound/headroom in my medium sized space. But 90% of my listening probably doesn't really need it.

 

As an aside, one thing that can be a bit fiddly about a PowerNode in more of a living room setting is adjusting volume without a more classic knob to turn.  I expect the OP has weighed all that up though.....My tip when using the PowerNode where others may suddenly turn it up to max (say by using the phone app or even the digital slider on the top of the box) is to set the volume limit below max in the control panel on the app. That way someone cannot accidentally and suddenly hit full power which 'may' cause clipping particularly into a harder to drive 4 ohm speaker.  When I use the PowerNode in my office I am almost always running off the PC app for Bluesound so I can control volume etc all from my desktop.

With regards cabling I use and recommend UK brand QED.  I love QED as they cater for all budget levels but they are science based and their cables are great quality, measure excellently, are well manufactured, and sound great.

 

If I was you I wouldn’t hesitate, you can get pretty much the full range from either Lifestyle Store or Addicted to Audio.

 

I’m a big fan of the performance range and it’s what I use in most of my systems.  I still use QED even in my main systems just further up the range.

 

QED Performance Range Speaker Cable

 

You can get this for $25 per metre in Bi-wire config and if you are even a little bit handy it’s very very easy to make your own.   Good thing with this is you can get the length exactly right for your installation.  Get yourself 6 black and 6 red banana plugs like THESE (there are cheaper options) and you are good to go.  This is a really good quality speaker cable that you can rely on and will last for many, many years.

 

For your subwoofer again I would 

recommend the QED performance range HERE

 

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, tsfreo said:

 

As an aside, one thing that can be a bit fiddly about a PowerNode in more of a living room setting is adjusting volume without a more classic knob to turn.  I expect the OP has weighed all that up though.....My tip when using the PowerNode where others may suddenly turn it up to max (say by using the phone app or even the digital slider on the top of the box) is to set the volume limit below max in the control panel on the app.

 

Yeah, until I get a handle on it, it will be just under my control.  Family can get to it once I know what's what. 

33 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

I'm obviously just making assumptions here, but if the amp has bass control, and the sub has a crossover control, do I just set sub to max and control crossover point from the amp? Assuming I then lower the sub setting once settled so it's not amplifying excess noise?

 

 

The Bluesound app makes sub integration much easier with some easy to use sliders that allow you to set the crossover at your choice between 40Hz and 200Hz. You just connect the sub using its LFE input and turn the crossover control on the back to max (which will just mean that the sub will take the bass signal as selected by the Bluesound).  80Hz is widely considered to be a good starting point.  The best crossover option depends on the speakers and your room and sub placement and is a whole fun exercise unto itself. Plenty of good youtube vids and explainers about sub integration online.  It is also a trial and error thing where you will find the places in the room where everthing sounds the best at your usual listening position.  Ideal sub placement is not always possible because of other things in your room, whether putting the sub in the 'perfect' spot will otherwise annoy you or others day to day etc.

I tried putting a 10" sub in my main living room and my wife immediately came in, pointed to the big black box and asked very pointedly, 'what is that??'.....it was not as acceptable as the Linton speakers were.

I gather if there is a gap in the crossover then there will be a "hole" in the audio spectrum.

 

Sub has a variable knob... Min to max. So may be a trial and error setup to match the amp. Also has a phase and volume setting.

 

Luckily this is all going on in my office for now.  So outside opinion only valid if I'm rattling glasses off the kitchen shelves!

20 minutes ago, POV said:

With regards cabling I use and recommend UK brand QED.  I love QED as they cater for all budget levels but they are science based and their cables are great quality, measure excellently, are well manufactured, and sound great.

 

If I was you I wouldn’t hesitate, you can get pretty much the full range from either Lifestyle Store or Addicted to Audio.

 

I’m a big fan of the performance range and it’s what I use in most of my systems.  I still use QED even in my main systems just further up the range.

 

QED Performance Range Speaker Cable

 

You can get this for $25 per metre in Bi-wire config and if you are even a little bit handy it’s very very easy to make your own.   Good thing with this is you can get the length exactly right for your installation.  Get yourself 6 black and 6 red banana plugs like THESE (there are cheaper options) and you are good to go.  This is a really good quality speaker cable that you can rely on and will last for many, many years.

 

For your subwoofer again I would 

recommend the QED performance range HERE

 

 

 

 

 

I like qed too, esp. Their performance original. Another brand I like is supra. They also have their non-tin plated speaker cables.

 

 

17 minutes ago, POV said:

With regards cabling I use and recommend UK brand QED.  

 

 

I understand just enough Latin to get the reference in their name.

 

Thanks for the recommendation.

1 minute ago, Single-Malt said:

 

I understand just enough Latin to get the reference in their name.

 

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

No worries.  Feel free to send me a message if you need any help.  I am super familiar with the Bluesound, and I have also previously owned Whatmough perfromance range speakers and Impulse 2 subs.

2 minutes ago, Single-Malt said:

I gather if there is a gap in the crossover then there will be a "hole" in the audio spectrum.

Yes, there can be, but the bass management system in the PowerNode makes that much easier to avoid.  It is a big plus for the PowerNode and something that more expensive offerings from NAD (like the C368 do not offer and I very much miss).

Really all you do is set the crossover dial on the back of your sub to max setting, often marked as 'LFE'.  Connect the sub via its LFE input to the PowerNode. The PowerNode will sort the bass and higher frequencies per your instruction using the slider on the app.  All you need to do then in blend in the sub volume - usually start at 12 oclock and dial up or down just a little as necessary

Lookup the Youtube vid of Johh Darko discussing the current PowerNode (the N330) vid title is WOWSERS! Bluesound POWERNODE. Watch from 8:15 where he discusses how the high pass filter works.

2 minutes ago, POV said:

 

No worries.  Feel free to send me a message if you need any help.  I am super familiar with the Bluesound, and I have also previously owned Whatmough perfromance range speakers and Impulse 2 subs.

 

Oh thanks! I may just do that as I'm sure to have everything wonky to start with.