2 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

I personally don't think this should or is impacting things too much

I agree, I don't think it's the cause of the issues you're describing.   But I'd fix it if you can.

10 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

I agree, I don't think it's the cause of the issues you're describing.   But I'd fix it if you can.

the speakers are manufactured that way. I've noticed alot of the current retro types either do or don't have a L/R speaker.  I watched and read a number of reviews including user reports on a few speakers that were on my list.  Taron "a british audiophile" reviewed these (one of a few) and made mention but heard no discerning difference.  Most of the noise came from the comment section.

I might be wrong but I am pretty sure the newer JBL speakers are the same, but some of the others around do have a L/R.

 

I admit visually it looks a little off, but I've not noticed any sonic impact.

All that said, they're a wonderful sounding speaker, really impressed with them.

4 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

the speakers are manufactured that way.

 

From the user manual....
 

 

 

4 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

I might be wrong but I am pretty sure the newer JBL speakers are the same

Yes, quite a few are (it isn't a new thing) ... but the customer or the dealer (before sale) are expected to configure them the right way

3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

From the user manual....
 

 

 

Yes, quite a few are (it isn't a new thing) ... but the customer or the dealer (before sale) are expected to configure them the right way

I'd never picked that up in the user manual illustration! Interesting.

 

No reviews had them alternatively configured, I'd be happy to have it done but I'm not skilled to do it 🤦‍♂️😂

 

 

1 hour ago, 08Boss302 said:

 🤦‍♂️😂

I think this is the correct response to "no reviews had them alternatively configured"

... rather than "I don't have the skills to do it".

 

10 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I think this is the correct response to "no reviews had them alternatively configured"

... rather than "I don't have the skills to do it".

 

True. 

I won't try though, not worth the potential error 

Pay a professional, invest in proper panels according to measurements.

 

A lot of us start with 'home-made' or experimental solutions - a waste of time and money!

 

 

My suggestion is to start with some measurements.  Get yourself one of these:  Acoustic Measurement Tools: UMIK-1 (minidsp.com)  and Download this: Room EQ Wizard.

 

Andrew Robinson has recently done a couple of videos for beginers on how to take measurements, and how to go about EQing subwoofers.  It's really not that hard, and frankly think that it's something everyone should undertake, just to understand what is actually going on in their rooms.  Part 1 and Part 2 found at these links.

 

Reality is that bass traps required for effective treatment of very low frequncy issues are huge and unless you are in a position to DIY will be very expensive.  That's not to say that I don't see a utility for bass traps, I do and use them in my own room, but to acknowledge that you need to add DSP into the mix to really effectively deal with  integration between mains and subs.

 

Your hardware situation actually makes this a lot easier as you are using a pre/pwr combo meaning that you can easily run a mini DSP between the 2 to provision DIRAC Live for sub EQ.

 

Yes as per suggestions above you can absolutely get a professional in, but there's a ton of resources and assistance out there if wanting to experiment for yourself.  At the very least get the UMIK-1 and take some measurements before you get someone in, this will assist you with being informed about what's actually happening in your room and enable you to discuss options with them form an educated standpoint.

 

One other suggestion I have, is embrace the fun and interest of experimentation and education in this space.  Getting my head around room acoustics, DSP, and EQ was the biggest game changer by far in my hifi and audio journey.  It's when I realised that I had been wasting so much time and money chasing my tail with equipment all of which pales in comparison to dealing  with the acoustic challenges of your room in terms of ultimate musical enjoyment. 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 20232 yr by POV

On 01/07/2023 at 1:12 PM, davewantsmoore said:

 

From the user manual....
 

 

 

Yes, quite a few are (it isn't a new thing) ... but the customer or the dealer (before sale) are expected to configure them the right way

I'm not particularly OCD, but not having them a mirror image of themselves would drive me nuts even if it makes no difference to the sound...but that's just my opinion!

 

Given @08Boss302 doesn't want to use his AVR for 2ch listening, and I agree that positioning and EQ will help, what would the suggestions be for adding EQ to his 2ch setup?... @POV suggested mini DSP, but which model best suits the OP?

 

As @POV says ...even if you get a professional to measure your room, I think it's good idea, and not too expensive, to have your own measurement rig, and learn how to use it.

A Umike, a decent mic stand with a boom, a long USB cable and a laptop running REW is all you need for a measurement rig...assuming you already have a laptop somewhere, it needn't be expensive.

If you head down this path, make sure you get a mic stand with a boom.

 

They start quite cheap eg $59:

https://www.mannys.com.au/adam-hall-s5be-microphone-stand-black-w-boom-arm

Better ones are a bit more expensive eg $125 (this is what I have):

https://brisound.com.au/collections/microphone-stands/products/konig-meyer-km210-6-microphone-stand-black

IMHO the boom is essential for room measurements to place the mic in the usual awkward places for the "sub crawl", but also just to put it where your head would be on the listening couch.

 

As others have said above, get measurements done first...but I do think some broadband absorption targeted at the lower end will be worthwhile...I haven't measured that many rooms, but all of them have benefited from corner straddling absorption to clean up >150Hz or so without absorbing too much top end.

 

Below 150Hz, absorption needs to be too large/gapped to be practical - in my lightly constructed room where all the low bass leaks out, I use EQ which works very well.

 

IMHO a combination of speaker/sub/LP positioning, EQ, and absorption targeted at lower frequencies (corner straddling as deep/wide as you can get away with) will achieve excellent "in room" sound.

 

The more rigid your room boundaries are, the more treatment you'll need to manage the bottom end.

 

cheers,

Mike

It's something I'd like to learn more about for sure.

I've got new laptop so no prob there.

Don't know much about REW etc but willing to learn 

Can buy a mic and boom too.

I don't use subs in 2ch so would (unless otherwise instructed) take measurements from MLP.

Really keen on increasing bass and reducing high end.

I'm going to start with simple things, like LP, SP and with the pictured Elipson speakers they have a  lower stand option as well as stands pictured.  I'll try the lower stands too incase the current and angle height is not ideal for my room and LP... It's free to try.

 

The pic in the manual seems a little universal to their products, it says in those instructions to start with speakers facing straight and toe to taste   most reviews had em straight.  Before I renovated room I had em straight, I think the main culprit is the drastic changes in the room, but it's a great opportunity for me to learn a few things and set up the room up nicely too.

 

Very appreciative of all advice this far and I am looking into all of em

3 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

I don't use subs in 2ch

really?

I think well integrated subs are very worthwhile - especially since you've mentioned you like a bit of a bottom end impact!

 

IMHO every system benefits from well integrated subs!

 

Mike

 

I've heard this many times and have no objection other than not knowing how I'd connect them to my integrated amps  and equally keep them set up for movies

5 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

I've heard this many times and have no objection other than not knowing how I'd connect them to my integrated amps  and equally keep them set up for movies

you'll need to describe your setup and how you change from 2ch to movies to determine how it may work.

 

I run 2ch for everything, which includes my subwoofer

6 hours ago, POV said:

Your hardware situation actually makes this a lot easier as you are using a pre/pwr combo meaning that you can easily run a mini DSP between the 2 to provision DIRAC Live for sub EQ.

I may have been misled by POV's post which said you're running a pre/pwr combo?

 

Mike

12 minutes ago, almikel said:

you'll need to describe your setup and how you change from 2ch to movies to determine how it may work.

 

I run 2ch for everything, which includes my subwoofer

I may have been misled by POV's post which said you're running a pre/pwr combo?

 

Mike

I've got my avr which I just disconnect/connect my speakers when I'm watching a movie consider it separate set up to the below 

 

I've then got a pre/power combo (solid-state) and a tube amp.

I simply again connect speaker cables to the speaker pending which amp I choose to use 

I've got a passive switch which I can select which 2ch amp I want to use and this allows me to use all my components equally. So basically no matter which amp I select for 2ch listening I can still use my cd, streamer, DAC TT etc

 

15 hours ago, almikel said:

 

but which model best suits the OP?

Putting it in between a preamp and amp (with analogue connections) is not the best plan, if it can be avoided (signal level issues and digital converter performance)..... but in such a complex system, it might be the only way.   Getting audio signal levels correct through a system is of huge importance to SQ....  and only gets more important in digital systems.

 

The recommended model, for sure, is one which includes Dirac Live.... because it requires no interpretation of measurement data by the user.

On 09/07/2023 at 5:48 PM, 08Boss302 said:

I've got my avr which I just disconnect/connect my speakers when I'm watching a movie consider it separate set up to the below 

 

I've then got a pre/power combo (solid-state) and a tube amp.

I simply again connect speaker cables to the speaker pending which amp I choose to use 

I've got a passive switch which I can select which 2ch amp I want to use and this allows me to use all my components equally. So basically no matter which amp I select for 2ch listening I can still use my cd, streamer, DAC TT etc

 

Hi @08Boss302,

 

I only just took notice of your user name - I guess you're a Ford fan?

My first car was an XA falcon with a warm 302 Cleveland backed by a toploader, then I swapped both into an XY falcon - fun days!

These days my fun car is a Nissan R33 GTST - more power and better handling than any V8 I've owned

 

Wow - swapping speaker cables between systems is not something I would want to do

 

I just don't know what to advise to add EQ in your scenario, and also allow you to use your subs for 2ch listening???

IMHO well integrated subs are just as important for 2ch as movies.

 

I'm struggling here as I only run 2ch...and my entire front end is all digital via DEQX so DSP/EQ is built in.

 

Does your AVR have Home Theatre Bypass? to send a signal to your pre-amp?

Does your pre-amp have a spare input? to accept a signal from your AVR?

 

As @davewantsmoore says - it's not ideal to add something like a miniDSP in between analog pre and analog power amps - but it's likely the most inexpensive option for adding EQ/delay capability across your main speakers and subs, and carefully implemented (ie regarding Dave's points on levels), should yield excellent results.

 

You would still require some sort of switcher to choose between your SS amp and your tube amp - the stereo retailers do this all the time in their listening rooms - I would ask them what they use.

 

I would just choose the power amp you like best, and not bother swapping!

 

Mike

12 hours ago, almikel said:

it's not ideal to add something like a miniDSP in between analog pre and analog power amps

It can be done ok, as long as careful with signal levels

The advantages of adding Dirac (when well executed and setup) generally far outweigh any loss of fidelity from adding a miniDSP unit into the signal chain IME.  Agree need to be acareful with signal levels but I have rarely seen this become a problem.

 

@08Boss302 I don't know how this lands with you as a concept, but I would personally advocate massively simpifying your system set-up and going back to a 2.2 system for everything.  Many of us have given up on home surround sound and rather focussed on doinlg 2.x really well and generally find folsk never look back when making this move.  This would then remove the need for the AVR and one layer of switching.  Personally I would be inclinced to remove the valve amp as well (I use these type of situations as an excuse to set-up another system elsewhere in the house/shed if I don't want to let go of equipment).  Then you just need to add a DAC (option with HDMI ARC is helpful) for extracting movie/tv soundtracks and you are away.  MiniDSP will take care of sub main integration and EQ via DIRAC and once you have integrated subs well in your 2 channel with good EQ you will NEVER want to go back.  I am a very strong advocate that well integrated and well eq'd subs improve all 2 channel systems in all rooms irrespective of the main speakers used.

 

I dunno if this taking you down a pathway that's very different from what you were seeking, but it's the way I would go!

 

 

 

On 12/7/2023 at 1:53 PM, POV said:

I don't know how this lands with you as a concept, but I would personally advocate massively simpifying your system set-up and going back to a 2.2 system for everything. 

 

Agreed.

 

... or build a stereo setup, where the amp/pre/processor has a spare analogue input .... and then have an AVR, where the LR pre outs feed into the stereo setup.

 

Digital Source -> Stereo Processor (eg. miniDSP) -> Stereo Amp -> LR

 

 

Movie/TV    -> AVR -> Surround Speakers

 

                      -> AVR LR (pre out) -> Stereo Processor (analogue input)