Hello everyone 

 

After spending a lot of time and money getting my system sounding great I decided a couple of weeks ago that it was time to turn my back on all that hard work and change things up. My motivators were wanting to simplify my setup, make it more wife friendly and have a dabble with some new tech that might assist overcoming my less than perfect Hifi room. Oh, it would also appear I wanted to spend some more money! ??‍♂️
 

My previous setup was: ps audio p15 power - Antipodes CX/EX - ps audio DSD - ps audio bhk pre - ps audio bhk250 - Spendor d9.2’s. The setup was sweet and I really liked it - so much so that when I was dismantling it last week I was thinking WTF am I doing!?! 
 

My new chain looks like this... ps audio p15 power - Antipodes CX/EX - ps audio DSD - ps audio bhk pre - Dutch 8c’s. 
 

My plan - while probably a little silly & expensive - was to run the 8c’s for a week or two and either sell them if no good or sell the old gear to recoup funds (and stay married ). 
 

As I mentioned I had serious buyers remorse when I was pulling my system apart and plugging in the 8c’s. It took me about 3 hours & 6 beers to get everything done. I switched it all on and got an instant wow. An hour later I was so impressed I decided to start listing my spendors, bhk250 and some other bits and pieces for sale. Amongst a thousand low ball offers and silly tyre kicking - they all finally sold. Not for the money I wanted but enough to allow me to still sleep at night. I’m sure the new owners will be very happy with their new equipment. ?
 

I’m now a week in and am very impressed with the 8c’s. My biggest fear was the bass. This concern has flipped and I can honestly say bass is the biggest strength of the 8c’s. The bass is clear, solid & impactful. My wife thought I had my HT sub connected. Its not and I have no intentions to do it. 
 

The roon compatibility is still coming for the 8c’s. They’ve been saying ‘soon’ for a long time and I’m not holding my breath. Once the firmware arrives I’ll probably sell my BHK pre & DSD but right now they are useful as the preamp offers HT bypass which is something I need. 
 

The biggest things I’m finding with the 8c’s is clarity, a wonderful immersive sound stage and the ability to tweak easily via the onboard DSP which is easy to use and integrates seamlessly with REW. 
 

I haven’t got any negatives but here are my neutral comments.
 

1.  Roon integration. Wish they’d hurry!
 

2.  The onboard dsp / REW integration feeds a parametric eq which is not as good as convolutions via roon. I’m going to get Thierry at Home Audio fidelity to make some filters for me. I sent him measurements tonight so hopefully will have them back tomorrow. These filters which are loaded on the roon DSP were a game changer on my old system and I’m looking forward to seeing what he can do with the 8c’s. Stay tuned for an update once I get them. 

3. The control is via a browser. Works fine. Haven’t had any hick-ups or problems but an app would be nice. 
 

4. Only takes one input at a time (either AES or analog XLR). A control box like the Kii’s would be nice. 
 

5. No speakers grills  Perhaps not the best for those with little people who like touching things they shouldn’t!! ?
 

Re the Kii’s - don’t get me wrong, they are great speakers but I’ve never really fallen in love with them on the odd occasion I’ve had the chance to listen to them. My impressions so far tell me the 8c’s are warmer, bigger and punchier. The 8c’s are also heaps cheaper!!. All the things I like but acknowledge different horses for different courses. 
 

Anyway, put this post up in the spirit of the community. Will provide more updates if people are interested. Also happy to answer questions if anyone has any. 
 

Lastly - thanks to @Geoff@HeyNow Hi-Fi for another good buying experience. Highly recommend him. Great guy & great service. 
 

Thanks, John. 
 

 

Edited February 3, 20215 yr by Jhsg

So... Thierry from Home Audio Fidelity has delivered again! Got my updated filters and the sound has gone from great to unreal. Was just sitting here getting absolutely lost in a wide, precise and beautifully balanced sound stage!! 

Nice write up.

 

I heard the 8C's a few years back at Marc's audio show.   It was late on a Saturday night and Bill Mclean had had a long day and a group of encouraging patrons. ?   Pretty sure it was  Acca Dacca at 110db when I bailed out ??

 

The 8c's were pretty stunning.    In the end I got a great deal on a 2nd hand pair of the Kii3's and went that way.

 

Enjoy the D&D.

 

Once you go Active, you never go back.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

32 minutes ago, cazzesman said:

  Pretty sure it was  Acca Dacca at 110db when I bailed out ??

 

 

 

only 110db?? ?

22 hours ago, Jhsg said:

After spending a lot of time and money getting my system sounding great I decided a couple of weeks ago that it was time to turn my back on all that hard work and change things up. My motivators were wanting to simplify my setup, make it more wife friendly and have a dabble with some new tech that might assist overcoming my less than perfect Hifi room. Oh, it would also appear I wanted to spend some more money! ??‍♂️

Excellent write up.  Good to hear someone else bailing out of the upgrade rat race and going down the simplification route. ? 

 

22 hours ago, Jhsg said:

Re the Kii’s - don’t get me wrong, they are great speakers but I’ve never really fallen in love with them on the odd occasion I’ve had the chance to listen to them. My impressions so far tell me the 8c’s are warmer, bigger and punchier. The 8c’s are also heaps cheaper!!. All the things I like but acknowledge different horses for different courses.

It is funny that I have the opposite experience, never really fallen in love with the D&D 8C when I heard them.  ?  I suspect it is matter of personal taste.  It is good that we have so many choices to meet different requirements. 

 

As @cazzesman mentioned, once you go active, you never go back.  I am on my third set!

 

Enjoy the music...

Edited February 4, 20215 yr by Snoopy8
Typo

I heard both the Dutch 8C and KII3's at the 2018 HiFi show and the Dutchies were better IMO and considerably less money.

The Dutchies have more bass capability, play louder with less distortion and the 3's are not so cardioid especially at higher frequencies.

 

From: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/kii-three-loudspeaker-review-r735/

 

Above for the 3's is still an excellent result and better than the vast majority of speakers but unless I'm mistaken the horizontal dispersion of the Dutchies is without equal, see below.

From: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/

4 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I heard both the Dutch 8C and KII3's at the 2018 HiFi show and the Dutchies were better IMO and considerably less money.

The Dutchies have more bass capability, play louder with less distortion and the 3's are not so cardioid especially at higher frequencies.

 

From: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/kii-three-loudspeaker-review-r735/

 

Above for the 3's is still an excellent result and better than the vast majority of speakers but unless I'm mistaken the horizontal dispersion of the Dutchies is without equal, see below.

From: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/

I have yet to hear a Kii speaker distort, even at full volume.

23 hours ago, Jhsg said:

So... Thierry from Home Audio Fidelity has delivered again! Got my updated filters and the sound has gone from great to unreal. Was just sitting here getting absolutely lost in a wide, precise and beautifully balanced sound stage!! 

Great result John, so glad you are enjoying them so much after what must have been a very big decision to make regards the big system change.

 

To me, being able to streamline or even downscale the size of a large and complicated system and get an equal or better result (which seems to be the case) can be one of the most rewarding things in Audio.

 

enjoy !

Edited February 5, 20215 yr by Ray H
Too many results...

We have a pair in burnt orange incoming from Europe - will be so happy to get reacquainted with them in about 4 weeks’ time!

18 hours ago, Hydrology said:

We have a pair in burnt orange incoming from Europe - will be so happy to get reacquainted with them in about 4 weeks’ time!

I would like to see those! Could you post a pic when they arrive?

3 hours ago, TD19 said:

I would like to see those! Could you post a pic when they arrive?

 

Oh we will !!!

 

100hrs in and these 8c’s are blowing me away. Sensational speakers! Absolutely no regrets buying them!  

9 minutes ago, Jhsg said:

100hrs in and these 8c’s are blowing me away. Sensational speakers! Absolutely no regrets buying them!  

 

Well done John!

 

I'm a big fan of the D&D 8c's. Mind you i've only experienced them once for maybe an hour/hour and a half, but they sure were fun. 

 

I've had extended experience with Kii Three's having owned them, and although limited experience with the 8c's and not a side by side comparison found they had greater weight on the bottom end (can't compete with those bigger woofers moving air) and could handle way more power than the Kii's.

 

When i heard the 8c's they were pushed to ear bleeding levels and showed no strain or compression. They can just keep going and going. Alternatively, i often would find the kii's showing the red lights clipping as low as 85db in room. To comment on the above, i didn't find the Kii's distort, IMO they start to compress earlier as they're pushed than the 8c's and the clipping signal comes in quite early. Also found rather than distorting the DSP starts backing off the bass as things get loud and heavy.

 

The biggest downfall i found with the 8c's though compared to the kii's is the lack of a 'kii control'. If D&D came out with their own hub/interface like Kii and even Buchardt have, which allows multiple digital  and analogue inputs, and streaming, it would be an absolute killer.

1 minute ago, wikeeboy said:

The biggest downfall i found with the 8c's though compared to the kii's is the lack of a 'kii control'. If D&D came out with their own hub/interface like Kii and even Buchardt have, which allows multiple digital  and analogue inputs, and streaming, it would be an absolute killer.

Agree. There’s whispers online that this capability is coming which will be a great thing. As I mentioned above, I’m still being forced to use a preamp & external dac which isn’t ideal but it’s sounding fantastic which is all that really counts. ?

 

Re the Kii’s... I’ve never had the opportunity to play with a set but your observations align with my impressions. I did like the sound but it didn’t have much heft which I found disappointing. The price point was also a turn off. Particularly considering I wouldn’t be able to help myself and would have to buy the sub cabinets for them which would push the price to dizzy heights. I would love to have a set for a couple of weeks to get a proper feel for how they sound in my environment. 

11 hours ago, Jhsg said:

Agree. There’s whispers online that this capability is coming which will be a great thing. As I mentioned above, I’m still being forced to use a preamp & external dac which isn’t ideal but it’s sounding fantastic which is all that really counts. ?

 

Re the Kii’s... I’ve never had the opportunity to play with a set but your observations align with my impressions. I did like the sound but it didn’t have much heft which I found disappointing. The price point was also a turn off. Particularly considering I wouldn’t be able to help myself and would have to buy the sub cabinets for them which would push the price to dizzy heights. I would love to have a set for a couple of weeks to get a proper feel for how they sound in my environment. 

 

Those whispers have been around for a while unfortunately. IMO it's taken them way too long to come up with something which no doubt has significantly impacted sales. Even as a short term solution they could look at something like Buchardt has done, an off the shelf hub with WISA compatibility. Beauty of that is Buchardt can go to market with a decent workable hub, and in the background they've ben working on their own premium proprietary hub (soon to be released).

 

I just recently bought some Genelec 8351's. I'd love to hear the Gen's along side the 8c's TBH. On first listen the Gens are closer to the 8c's than Kii. They have significantly greater power handling, with bigger impact and weightier bottom end (similar thoughts when i heard the 8c's). The GLM calibration on the Gen's (GLM 4) to correct the room also does an amazing job. In the space of a few short minutes i was able to reduce the boom/bass bump in the bottom end and smooth out the top. Made a big difference. Would be interesting to compare the D&D's cardioid effect in room compared to Gens solution which is similar to the 8c's keeping them close to rear wall (within 60cm ideally) and using room correction to reduce some of the boom for rear wall reinforcement.

 

Will continue following your journey with interest!

13 hours ago, wikeeboy said:

The biggest downfall i found with the 8c's though compared to the kii's is the lack of a 'kii control'. If D&D came out with their own hub/interface like Kii and even Buchardt have, which allows multiple digital  and analogue inputs, and streaming, it would be an absolute killer.

 

To me it's not really an issue.

 

Just add one of these: https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd (miniDSP SHD) or something similar which includes Dirac Live Room Correction and you'd still be better off dollar wise than the Kii's.

7 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

To me it's not really an issue.

 

Just add one of these: https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd (miniDSP SHD) or something similar which includes Dirac Live Room Correction and you'd still be better off dollar wise than the Kii's.

 

Yep, don't disagree. You've got the minidsp as a good option, or even the RME ADI 2 FS BE (what a mouthful) which allows dig and analogue inputs with decene DA/AD chips and other bonus features like a headphone amp and parametric eq etc. And as you say, you still come out a mile ahead dollar wise.

My biggest concern with these hot European imports (Dutch, Kii, Buchardt) is when something goes wrong.

All of that proprietary DSP run by computers and amplifiers inside these things are going to go bang one day and in Australia it will be harder to get things replaced or fixed.

Whenever that happens and to whoever I hope its a speedy and affordable fix.

2 minutes ago, Satanica said:

My biggest concern with these hot European imports (Dutch, Kii, Buchardt) is when something goes wrong.

All of that proprietary DSP run by computers and amplifiers inside these things are going to go bang one day and in Australia it will be harder to get things replaced or fixed.

Whenever that happens and to whoever I hope its a speedy and affordable fix.

 

So far feedback has been Kii support is top rate, and Buchardt also really good with their customers. I guess it's not too different to all the electronics in your equipment playing up. Key is good dealer/supplier support and Sonic Purity as well as McLEans (kii/D&D) is excellent in our market.

17 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

 

So far feedback has been Kii support is top rate, and Buchardt also really good with their customers. I guess it's not too different to all the electronics in your equipment playing up. Key is good dealer/supplier support and Sonic Purity as well as McLEans (kii/D&D) is excellent in our market.

 

They all seem like good companies I just hope they still have parts in 10 years to what will be then be legacy products as they would have probably moved onto new ones.

With typical systems you can at least replace individual electronic components.

 

I've essentially had then same digital active system for over 13 years (Legend, DEQX, miniDSP) and in that time I've replaced two Hypex amplifier modules, plate amps and all of the eight drivers as they are non-proprietary off the shelf jobs. And my DEQX once needed repair which they did swiftly and cheaply.

 

Dutch, Kii, Buchardt are all good European speakers but I'm just a bit concerned about life after warranty, especially as they have so many parts and especially in Australia.

 

Anyway, I feel like I'm thread hijacking!

Edited February 12, 20215 yr by Satanica

On 03/02/2021 at 7:49 PM, Jhsg said:

My new chain looks like this... ps audio p15 power - Antipodes CX/EX - ps audio DSD - ps audio bhk pre - Dutch 8c’s.

Hi John,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on your new speakers. Exciting times.

 

Just trying to understand , please correct me if I am wrong.

 

1.Most active speakers use Class D amplification? (How about your D&D). If it's class D is it sonically better than BHK Pre+  BHK 250.

Excuse my ignorance ,if I am wrong.

 

2.Kii, Buchdart does have class D or class AB amplification?

 

Thanks,

Srini

 

Edited February 13, 20215 yr by Drunken Monk

1 hour ago, Drunken Monk said:

Hi John,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on your new speakers. Exciting times.

 

Just trying to understand , please correct me if I am wrong.

 

1.Most active speakers use Class D amplification? (How about your D&D). If it's class D is it sonically better than BHK Pre+  BHK 250.

Excuse my ignorance of I am wrong.

 

2.Kii, Buchdart does have class D or class AB amplification?

 

Thanks,

Srini

 

 

Class D.

 

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/products/a500-white

https://www.heynowhifi.com.au/products/dutch-dutch-8c-studio-monitor-full-range-active-loudspeakers

Edited February 12, 20215 yr by Satanica

7 hours ago, Drunken Monk said:

Hi John,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on your new speakers. Exciting times.

 

Just trying to understand , please correct me if I am wrong.

 

1.Most active speakers use Class D amplification? (How about your D&D). If it's class D is it sonically better than BHK Pre+  BHK 250.

Excuse my ignorance of I am wrong.

 

2.Kii, Buchdart does have class D or class AB amplification?

 

Thanks,

Srini

 

 

Hey Srini, the thing about active speakers is that you have the one product doing at least the speaker and amplification side of things, and in the case of buchardt/kii/D&D other features such as DSP, analogue to digital conversion, digital to analogue conversion, streaming etc So you can pretty much have the one product providing all the things necessary to produce the end result/sound.

 

You can't really split out the pre or amplification section of the active speakers alone, so in that sense, you can't compare them apples for apples with what the BHK pre & amp contribute to the sound they produce.

 

The only useful comparison i guess, is what John thinks of the overall sound his previous system produced, compared to what the 8c's are now producing as a whole. 

4 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

The only useful comparison i guess, is what John thinks of the overall sound his previous system produced, compared to wha

Thanks for sharing your thoughts @wikeeboy

7 hours ago, Drunken Monk said:

1.Most active speakers use Class D amplification? (How about your D&D). If it's class D is it sonically better than BHK Pre+  BHK 250.

Excuse my ignorance of I am wrong.

 

2.Kii, Buchdart does have class D or class AB amplification?

What type of amps, Class D or even Class A/B amps (for SGR actives) is not relevant.  What is relevant is how they sound?  Please have a read of the differences between active and passive speakers, likely written by someone who does not own active speakers.

https://www.whathifi.com/au/advice/active-vs-passive-speakers-whats-the-difference-which-is-better

 

What is clear for many active owner speakers is that, we seldom move back to passive speakers. I am on my third set.,,