al2813 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 I have been on this never ending journey of looking for better sound for about 2 years now. After swapping quite a few items I am now with I believe is decent setup. A dual monu Hypex NC250MP amp, Audel bookshelf speakers, and for now only digital source - a recently pieced together music server running Roon into a Topping D90 DAC. The combo give me a very clean sound with a kind of 3D sound I was looking for. Still something is missing. Not sure what it is but somehow I feel that running the DAC direct into my AMP does not give me an optimal result. I have been thinking in many directions - was thinking on going for integrated but there after a recent listening session, my gut feeling is that I will need to spend a hefty amount to get a better result for my Hypex. Instead I started zooming on either going for a DAC that has a more "analogue sound" (or rather a proper descrete analogue section) or a pre amp. The second option appeals to me because it will allow me in the future to start my stage 2 of the project where I will add an analogue source. So open for recommendations? At this stage will be happy to go second hand and even not so recent stuff as my budget is rather limited after all the other recent upgrades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Budget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al2813 Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Budget? if I can less then 1k EUR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 I think what you need are some tubes in a preamp. This is probably the right product for you: https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoiree Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, al2813 said: if I can less then 1k EUR. if you feeling adventurous at rolling tubes and caps , have a look at https://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=103 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBurns84 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 6 hours ago, al2813 said: Instead I started zooming on either going for a DAC that has a more "analogue sound" Can i recommend the Musical Paradise dac? This dac also has a seperate analog attenuator so you can go direct to the Hypex. Plus you have the options to change the dac chip, tube and capacitor roll to change the sound should you need to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBurns84 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 haha.. we both think alike @demoiree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereo coffee Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 6 hours ago, al2813 said: I have been on this never ending journey of looking for better sound for about 2 years now. After swapping quite a few items I am now with I believe is decent setup. A dual monu Hypex NC250MP amp, Audel bookshelf speakers, and for now only digital source - a recently pieced together music server running Roon into a Topping D90 DAC. The combo give me a very clean sound with a kind of 3D sound I was looking for. Still something is missing. Not sure what it is but somehow I feel that running the DAC direct into my AMP does not give me an optimal result. I have been thinking in many directions - was thinking on going for integrated but there after a recent listening session, my gut feeling is that I will need to spend a hefty amount to get a better result for my Hypex. Instead I started zooming on either going for a DAC that has a more "analogue sound" (or rather a proper descrete analogue section) or a pre amp. The second option appeals to me because it will allow me in the future to start my stage 2 of the project where I will add an analogue source. So open for recommendations? At this stage will be happy to go second hand and even not so recent stuff as my budget is rather limited after all the other recent upgrades Your exactly right, less is indeed a lot more, & sounds like keeping attenuation as simple as possible, might work to reveal what is missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irek Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 While class D power amps are very attractive (price/power ratio), finding proper preamplifier is a nightmare. Once you find a good preamp , you'll realise it cost the same as integrated. I would be looking at preamps that are design to work with class D power amps. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 (edited) I'll add my vote for a tube preamp. 29 minutes ago, Irek said: I would be looking at preamps that are design to work with class D power amps. Wondering what is special about a preamp "designed to work with class D power amps "? Andy Edited November 20, 2020 by andyr 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:) Go Away (: Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Schitt, I tell you. You are left with schitt saga or schitt freya would be nice add. Or perhaps one of those tube preamp from peachtree audio. If you want a one box solution, you may want to take a look at NAD M33, this replaces your hypex amps, DAC and preamp with single unit. Yes it is expensive, but the journey that you are on does not end with a preamp, next comes the cables that connects your DAC to Preamp to Amp, then isolation of each component, and the lists goes on. The M33 may end up being cheaper in a long run and would do everything you want. The Hypex NC250MP amp are clean, and purifi amp in M33 are even cleaner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irek Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 5 hours ago, andyr said: I'll add my vote for a tube preamp. Wondering what is special about a preamp "designed to work with class D power amps "? Andy The trick is to create preamp that will transform the class D power amp into class AB sound (meat on bones) but at the same time keep the clean/detail and agile sound without adding distortion. Of course providing that somebody is not happy with DAC as a preamp. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, Irek said: transform the class D power amp into class AB sound For heaven's sake why? If you aren't happy with the accuracy of class D, then at least aim for something musical, like a SET 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 7 hours ago, demoiree said: if you feeling adventurous at rolling tubes and caps , have a look at https://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=103 Rolling caps? now that's luxury.... bad for your wallet though 6 hours ago, andyr said: Wondering what is special about a preamp "designed to work with class D power amps "? Andy Maybe because some class D has low input impedance like 10k. Most tube preamp with high output impedance is not really suited for not only Class D but any solid state power amp. However That musical paradise 5k output impedance will be ok for the hypex 100k input impedance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, mloutfie said: Maybe because some class D has low input impedance like 10k. Most tube preamp with high output impedance is not really suited for not only Class D but any solid state power amp. Aah, yes, understood Mahdie. Indeed, it's hard to get a tube pre with a Zout of <1K. Your 'Cornet 3' would suit a Class D amp, though? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, andyr said: Aah, yes, understood Mahdie. Indeed, it's hard to get a tube pre with a Zout of <1K. Your 'Cornet 3' would suit a Class D amp, though? Andy It goes through a preamp before the amp so it's fine for most but cornet does have 1k output impedance so not that hard to match Edited November 20, 2020 by mloutfie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al2813 Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 6 hours ago, :) Go Away (: said: Schitt, I tell you. You are left with schitt saga or schitt freya would be nice add. Or perhaps one of those tube preamp from peachtree audio. If you want a one box solution, you may want to take a look at NAD M33, this replaces your hypex amps, DAC and preamp with single unit. Yes it is expensive, but the journey that you are on does not end with a preamp, next comes the cables that connects your DAC to Preamp to Amp, then isolation of each component, and the lists goes on. The M33 may end up being cheaper in a long run and would do everything you want. The Hypex NC250MP amp are clean, and purifi amp in M33 are even cleaner. I disagree (being totally subjective). I think that for the 5.5k (EUR - almost 9K AUD) the M33 costs I can get a lot more. The C388 was the biggest disappointment I had in my very short audio journey. You can get great class D amps going DIY (or in my case buying from good DIYers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al2813 Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 (edited) Wow lots of great answers here. The Freya was on my list. Musical Paradise is interesting and I will have a look at them. I am also thinking of a second hand Electrocompaniet 4.6 currently on sale in my local 2nd hand marketplace for 600 Euros. My main doubt is the lack of a phono stage which means I will need to get yet another component the day I add vinyl to my setup (hopefully next year). Edited November 20, 2020 by al2813 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al2813 Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Irek said: The trick is to create preamp that will transform the class D power amp into class AB sound (meat on bones) but at the same time keep the clean/detail and agile sound without adding distortion. Of course providing that somebody is not happy with DAC as a preamp. I could have not summarized it better. Am not an expert in this vocabulary (again despite my 52 years of age and 40 years of having music as a big passion in life, I am very new to this) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, mloutfie said: Maybe because some class D has low input impedance like 10k. Most tube preamp with high output impedance is not really suited for not only Class D but any solid state power amp. Too many generalisations. Tube preamps made as separate components that need to drive other equipment will have low output impedances as required, and have no trouble. Perhaps you are thinking of thos that came paired with their own power amps, and even drew their operating supply from it. These could be made to match each other only. 53 minutes ago, mloutfie said: It goes through a preamp before the amp so it's fine for most but cornet does have 1k output impedance so not that hard to match Good example. A simple cathode follower at the output and all is well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, aussievintage said: Too many generalisations. Not really generalising that's why I said "Most tube preamp with high output impedance is not really suited" not "Most tube preamp has high output impedance". Most tube preamp with output buffer has reasonably lowish output impedance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Irek said: The trick is to create preamp that will transform the class D power amp into class AB sound (meat on bones) but at the same time keep the clean/detail and agile sound without adding distortion. Of course providing that somebody is not happy with DAC as a preamp. Spot on or some alternative is using a class d amp with class a input stage. More and more manufacturers are going this path 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisguittin Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Any Meixing Ming Da pre-amp problem solved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irek Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I have a feeling that the upcoming Marantz MODEL 30 Integrated (class D) will have much better price in EU than in AU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 hours ago, aussievintage said: Too many generalisations. Tube preamps made as separate components that need to drive other equipment will have low output impedances as required, and have no trouble. Perhaps you are thinking of thos that came paired with their own power amps, and even drew their operating supply from it. These could be made to match each other only. You seem to have looked at the specs of different tube preamps than I have, av. Then again, banana-benders are different. 2 hours ago, aussievintage said: Good example. A simple cathode follower at the output and all is well. And yet ... there are not many examples of this in commercial preamps? Perhaps bcoz, AIUI, a cathode follower is unity gain? (I'm not tube-knowledgable. ) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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