An Essay on The Challenges of Buying Hi-end Items

[Tassie Devil]

 

We face two basic problems:

 

1.       What to buy

2.       Where to buy it.

 

Once upon a time many cities had one or more friendly local stores who would loan out gear to audition at home but those days are long gone so now our opinions and prejudices on what to buy for most of us are shaped by both reviews and hearsay.  My approach has been to glean as many opinions as possible off the net to see if a consistent pattern of praise for an item exists.  If there is a consistent positive opinion it is usually safe to give the item the thumbs up.

 

But caution about reviews is required because no item is reviewed for its sound quality by itself.  It is reviewed in a system and as such the result is the sound from that system and not just from the particular item under discussion.  No item in an audio chain is perfectly neutral so the ying of one item can be neutralized by the yang in another.  One can read of one review giving caution about e.g., the bass response of item A in a particular system yet find another review of item A praised for its bass response in a different system. And this explains why some audiophiles find item A brilliant yet others are more lukewarm about it.

 

And there is the further complication of individual subjectivity.  We might be 99.99% similar in out genome but that does not mean we look exactly the same or have the exactly same brain structure.  Add in musical environmental differences and experiences and it is unsurprising that responses to both the music itself and its reproduction varies.  There is no right or wrong, just what is right or wrong for an individual in the context of their experience and disposition.  The concept of “Absolute Sound” is a myth, particularly with recorded music.  The sound one hears at a live concert can vary according to position in a hall.  Add in the minute complexities of microphone quality and placement plus all changes made in mixers and other electronics and the result is anything but absolute.

 

However, despite all this the audio quality from most recordings is very satisfying and is outstanding from many.  How well it is reproduced then falls to the chosen hardware and we come to the problem of where to buy it.

 

Once upon a time, when exchange rates were better, importing or buying from overseas was attractive enough to overcome any lack of guarantee.  But the exchange rate is no longer attractive and freight costs have become prohibitively high for most hi-end gear.  Recently I purchased a pair of Sony anti noise headphones (excellent product BTW) when passing through Singapore but found they would have cost less purchased at Addicted to Audio. Not only would there have been cost savings but I would have had a local guarantee which would have been backed up with the excellent service Addicted give to their customers.  So, we are fortunate in having this service available.

 

The other buying alternative is to purchase from a fellow audiophile here, or on Gumtree or e-bay or Amazon.  None of these are without risk although one does have recourse with Amazon or e-bay and with individuals if using payment with PayPal. Buying used can be attractive as sadly, most items depreciate to 50% of retail pricing. 

 

“Investment” in audio gear is a contraction in terms!!  I have purchased both new and used from all of the above mentioned sources and have put together some nice sounding (to my ears) systems. I have been lucky with gear bought on Gumtree so far but will seriously consider using PayPal in future as I had a recent “near miss” experience.  I’ve never had problems buying/selling here but have heard of one audiophile who has had a problem so again, PayPal costing 3% more could be a safer proposition.

 

I keep announcing my audiophilia cured, but that is an illusion. There is no end to the audio rainbow but it is fun exploring in an attempt to find it.  Good luck in your hunting but beware, take care, as audio illusions are frequently just that!

[audiofeline]

You raise some good points.  There is no doubt that retail has changed over the last 20yrs, and not just in audio.  Despite these changes, I still feel that the retail stores (that have survived) do offer a service for what we pay - we can audition the equipment (even if we can't borrow it), and benefit from the in-store comparisons and experience/expertise, and hopefully good after-sales service. 

 

HiFi not an investment?  It depends on how you look at it.  It does appear that a lot of equipment is now not built to last, and has little resale investment.  I would think it foolish to think of hifi as a financial investment (eg. for resale value).  However, I have made investments into hifi equipment that I see as a long-term proposition.  I have amps, speakers, and a tuner and turntable all from the 1980's which I expect to be running for many ears, and turntables from the 1960's.  These have lasted longer in my system than TVs, other appliances and my cars!  They have been a good investment for me - I have had excellent return for my money not needing to replace them regularly.  

 

I found your example of Sony noise-cancelling headphones being worth buying locally for the warranty interesting.  I have a different opinion.  MrsFeline bought a pair of Sony noise-cancelling headphones locally, which exploded during the warranty period.  Sony did everything they could to avoid honoring their consumer obligations, contemptuously blaming her for putting batteries in them (so they could be used), and after much stalling supplied a new replacement which didn't work after a few weeks.  The customer service and warranty supplied by Sony was essentially worthless.  And unfortunately, I read is typical of many companies.  I agree that getting a guarantee is important - especially when buying high-end equipment.  Given that many companies don't honour their legal obligations, we may as well buy from overseas, and factor the cost of any repairs into the (hopefully) discounted price.  But based on our personal experience, I'm not buying Sony again (after being a loyal customer for decades), and suggest that others don't buy their products as well. 

 

And finally, a correction.  You state "The concept of “Absolute Sound” is a myth".  Sorry, it exists.  Here is it's website: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/  

 

 

[Stump]

I still have your Esoteric UX1 bought 3rd hand still going strong..Stump

[Tassie Devil]

4 hours ago, Stump said:

I still have your Esoteric UX1 bought 3rd hand still going strong..Stump

That would be the bargain of the decade you got there and the corollary - the item on which I  spent the most money for the least long term return. - the result of Audiophilia.

 

5 hours ago, audiofeline said:

 

And finally, a correction.  You state "The concept of “Absolute Sound” is a myth".  Sorry, it exists.  Here is it's website: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/  

 

 

LOL.  I was one of the first subscribers to this magazine back in the days we worshipped founder Harry Pearson.  At one stage Harry invited me to listen to his gear in NY but later withdrew it as he was having personal problems, the details of which I'll not relate here.  And the audio industry benefited from me as a result of many of his glowing reviews.  The "good old days:"?

[Yarrum78]

I’ve always viewed hifi as a subject of diminishing returns. Much like wine - is an $800 bottle of wine 10 times better than an $80 bottle of wine? Not likely. Is an $80 bottle of wine 10 times better than an $8 bottle - possibly. So my hifi purchases have sat in the middle range, there’s no chance I  will spend >30k on a WAVAC amp but hell yes I will spend 5k on a Weston Time Machine. Similarly, I haven’t bought a single piece new, all has been bought from SNA members or other market places, this probably reaffirms your point that unless new equipment is entering the market place, all used equipment will be harder to source, but I think this is the manufacturers problem, the mid-range has been eaten out by cost cutting and the value just isn’t there anymore. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Yarrum78

[Rosco8]

Agree whole heartily and is my philosophy for many years.  However in the past 6 months and being bored and locked down I have experimented and found that increasing the component spend from $2-5k (2nd hand), to between $5-10k (2nd hand) has rewarded me with good improvements, which has surprised me, as I thought the gap would have been a lot smaller.  I also found listening to some more expensive systems in my travels recently has shown me the gap is not that great to keep on spending from where I am now.   Hopefully my Audiophilia has reached its peak   and i can just be content to play around the edges with cartridges, valves and the odd cables  

[Lochawe]

8 minutes ago, Rosco8 said:

Hopefully my Audiophilia has reached its peak   and i can just be content to play around the edges with cartridges, valves and the odd cables  

One can but live in hope...

I don't know you at all so wish you the best in that enterprise however if I were a betting man... : )

[petetherock]

What to buy
This can be influenced by what's hot...

If you are a frequent changer of kit, sometimes the item we buy can be influenced by trend.

Eg, processors don't keep their value as well as AVR amps. 

Power amps and Dacs tend to depreciate less.

 

Certain speakers are also easier to sell, especially if they are in a certain price range. The fancy ones are the hardest to sell.

Usually reliability is less of a concern, but the rubber surrounds of some speakers don't do too well in dry climates and others nearer the sea may find mold more easily

The foam surround of some B&W models also deteriorate more quickly... 

[Guest dr_carl]

In my estimation, the further you go above $2k purchase price the less likely you can flip it without significant loss. Significance being defined by your circumstances.

 

Where to buy is simple. Here.

What to buy... is why we all are here, as we cannot hear each other's systems we wonder endlessly if we get what the others claim to get. We ask "if I get this, do that, etc will improve my system? "

 

Or we nurse each other and give sage advice about listening to music rather than gear. Then sell them a gizmo to play with.

 

When it comes down to it hi fi are just toys. If someone else wants to play with your toy you can sell it. I like having new audio toys and the thought that there are others who want to play too, so if I  don't get too expensive then it won't go pear shaped. Bad outcome is when you get stuck with something you paid a lot for, but the market now abhors, and you want to move it on but can't.  

[Rosco8]

3 hours ago, Aperalim said:

One can but live in hope...

I don't know you at all so wish you the best in that enterprise however if I were a betting man... : )

So true ... so true ...  and yes, it would need to be really special and price wise a bargain at this point.   

 

Now in audiophilia I easily recognize all the symptoms I had with GAS (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome) ... which I had in spades for many years.

 

I  eventually learnt 2 very valuable lessons:

1. there is no end point unless you create one ..

2. there is an unlimited variety of brilliant guitars

 

There will always be another guitar or amp that used to get the adrenalin going, and as I used to say and feel, the hunt is on !!!!   I am sure that a lot of it was about the hunt, the negotiations, the ebay auctions and then winning the prize, whilst receiving the guitar or amp was a bit of an anti climax.  I find the same sometimes in photography, its the hunt for the shot at times, then seeing the shot thru the view finder to take.  The processing and publishing being an anti climax in comparison.

 

I haven't brought a guitar in 3 years, but sold 5 ... so going the right direction.

 

Hifi, well you can only fit so many systems in your house, and when you change one component it may mean that you end up replacing multiple components, well I do !!!!   Law of diminishing returns comes into play if you can recognize you have reached that point.  Recognition is the 1st  point and then the discipline of not getting caught in a moment and being impetuous in acquiring is the next.   Time is a good thing to use, slow the decision down, sleep on it .. then listen and appreciate what you already have  .. they work for me most times ...  

[Lochawe]

2 minutes ago, Rosco8 said:

Law of diminishing returns comes into play if you can recognize you have reached that point.

The good old LODR hmmm.... that is one of those enigmatic universal laws of reality that reminds me of Xeno's paradox.   To crudely paraphrase – wherever you are in relation to your destination or goal, that measurable distance or time, can always be halved,  so you never ever really get there...

 

I also agree with your  Confucious quote “Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without.” 

[BrianK]

I first got hooked into HIFI in my teens.  Then I got married and convinced my wife that our lives were not complete without a decent sound system.  Then having sold everything to come to Australia in the mid 70's we didn't have a lot but within a couple of years I was back in the market pursuing the HIFI dream and the endless cycle of upgrades.  There were some great HIFI stores in Perth then and lots of ways to spend money on diminishing returns in SQ.  Then CD's arrived on the scene which at first looked promising but never had the romance of vinyl and my   HIFI passion subsided....... or so I thought.  Earlier this year my loyal Luxman 58A integrated amp, which I'd had since new (35+ years) decided to take retirement and I thought I could do without.  That lasted a couple of weeks before I started to look around for a potential replacement.  I eventually found another current generation Luxman integrated amp.  When it arrived and was connected and powered up I was amazed at the SQ.  That started me once again on the upgrade path and now many thousands of dollars later I'm hooked again.  I think Audiophillia is an actual diagnosable condition much like alcohol.  I thought I was cured but it only took one drink for me to fall off the wagon again.  On the positive side I'm really really enjoying music again and finding online resources such as Stereonet has been just great.

[BrianK]

My recent experience in researching and finding new gear is that it's not that easy.  As the original poster "Tassie Devil" pointed out there aren't that many HIFI retail outlets around in these times and those that are in business can't offer a wide variety of brands they stock or promote.  So even though one might spend a lot time reading reviews and specifications etc, it's not the same experience as a live listening test at home with your system, room acoustics, cabling and music sources that would in the past have influenced your purchasing decisons.  I've seen several posts recently in the classifieds section where people have actually bought their short list of gear to test at home and then resorted to offering the gear for re-sale once they've made their choices.  It's effective but must be extremely time consuming and costly.

[Guest DrSK]

I've found some of the best advice has been from the sellers on this forum. The ones who have already sold their gear. 

 

Find something that has already sold, and send them a PM of what they thought of it and thoughts on what they replaced it with and what it was paired with.

 

People have been very honest comparing their sold items with new items. And even in their regrets. 

 

And if you set up some alerts for the gear you already have, you often find stuff being advertised as pairing well with the gear you already have, or if they are selling/sold what you have you get to hear their opinions on their upgrades.

 

I basically wouldn't trust anyone in sales or magazine reviews. Magazine reviews read the same now as they did every decade prior. Just swap the name of the component. 

 

Some of the most trust worthy people have been Australian small businesses that hand make and stand by their products. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by DrSK

[Hydrology]

On 29/07/2020 at 12:05 PM, Tassie Devil said:

 

 

 

Once upon a time many cities had one or more friendly local stores who would loan out gear to audition at home but those days are long gone so now

There are quite a few stores around the country who would loan out their equipment for an in-home audition but may not shout it from the rooftops, after all, you need to ensure the product comes back in the condition it went out in. I know of one in Perth that does loaners to serious buyers 

 

But in all seriousness, from my own experience, there are quite a few "buyers" out there who take advantage of this trust and are either tyre kicking, or feel that the home audition now means the retailer is held to ransom is expected to further discount, so I can understand how its not common practice any more. It's no surprise the retailer is jaded.

 

I would also say that nowadays stores stock far more brands than ever before, but you can never keep everyone happy.

[vivianbl]

Enjoyed your essay and the responses, but when you refer to the challenges of buying “high end” I wondered what you exactly meant? What do others mean by that?

At what point does Hi fi become “high end”?

Edited August 29, 2020 by vivianbl

[qik_shift]

This is a great essay - and thanks for sharing.  I can relate to this in a big way, and can share where I landed.

 

My view for all it's worth is that like most industries - the consumer's behaviour is partially to blame and like many things in life balance is key.  I think the Hi-Fi industry is ripe for change to solve for the problem the OP has raised.

 

The advent of online retailers has certainly changed the scene (alongside other retail industries).  Their introduction has arguably taken away (some people would say greedy) healthy profit margins from bricks and mortar retails. For the consumer this was seen as a great thing because people had access to equipment and if people knew what they wanted, they could get more for their hard earned dollar. Great outcome right?  Well yes when you know exactly what you want.

 

Online retailing has at least in some way forced the industry to respond to this new threat by cutting these healthy profit margins.  Arguably, it's those margins (providing they are re-invested into the business for the benefit of the consumer - a big if I know), that allows retailers to invest time and money into the buying experience.

 

Maybe I'll provide some of my personal experience to add some weight to this line of thinking:

 

It was earlier this year after saving some funds and finally biting the bullet after many years of financial sacrifice that I felt ready to take the plunge. I learned a lot from the good people of SNA, I'll put my hand up and admit that I was still overwhelmed by the disparity of opinions out there and the range of choice. I experienced 'paralysis by analysis'.  I could see that I could choose products online that were really price competitive, but had no real way of knowing if it would sound right to me. The best thing to do?  Follow one piece of advice that seems best - listen to products for myself.   This meant I either needed to be super active on SNA and in some cases rely on the kind nature of people willing to demonstrate their own setups in their homes, or I could see retailers.  I may have taken the first path if I had been an active SNA member for longer, built relationships and contributed back enough over time to not feel embarrassed to ask.  So a retailer it was......

 

I was completely product agnostic, but had a clear mandate about what sound I wanted. I articulated what I wanted as best as I could, and took music with me which I was intimate with.  I found generally, if the retailer took the time and energy to actually listen to what i was saying, then they were able to start from a point that was already 90% of the way there.  Not all retailers I visited did this.  

 

I do believe there are still retailers out there who are genuinely wanting to help.  Are they in it to make money?  Sure they are.  But the retailer I landed on took the time to listen to my requirements, was able to demonstrate products that literally put a smile on my face.  I landed on some products which formed the start of a good relationship.  What did that mean?  When I was ready to make some additional purchases, I was able to demonstrate new products in my home before I bought.  Did I get the cheapest price for the products I got?  I assume not.  Was the extra paid worth it because of the service I received?  Without a doubt.

 

In writing this essay of my own, It's really a long-winded way of saying that a relationship with a good retailer that invests time, money and energy into their business and into your experience with the products they are selling is worth a premium over the click and buy model.

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

On 30/08/2020 at 12:09 PM, qik_shift said:

 

 

...What did that mean?  When I was ready to make some additional purchases, I was able to demonstrate new products in my home before I bought.  Did I get the cheapest price for the products I got?  I assume not.  Was the extra paid worth it because of the service I received?  Without a doubt.

 

In writing this essay of my own, It's really a long-winded way of saying that a relationship with a good retailer that invests time, money and energy into their business and into your experience with the products they are selling is worth a premium over the click and buy model.

I may be not remembering the 1990s properly but my recollection was that the retailers stopped offering these kinds of services, except to those who were buying esoteric and really expensive gear.  For those of us who stuck to the mid-range (for me, that was NAD or similar) there was no point going to a retailer once this kind of service stopped.  There used to be a pile of good hi-fi retailers around George St in the CBD in Sydney who knew the gear and would be patient about you auditioning things but then around the time DVD appeared it all went out the window.  When DVD made home theatre a more widespread phenomenon than Laserdisc, the retail model based around personalised service stopped working.

 

At this time I stopped buying that mid-range gear for another reason:  a good Sony CD or DVD player was just more reliable than a NAD.  A Sony or Yamaha amp or receiver could be relied upon to deliver the watts in a reliable fashion than the NAD gear I had.  Whenever a component stopped working in my setup (which was a lot, every NAD piece I had from 1989-1995 all lost channels, popped components or were filled with dry solder joints).  I just replaced it with something mainstream and didn't really feel like I lost anything in sound quality.  When the house was full of kids you couldn't hear any difference anyway.

 

Now?  I live a long way from anything even resembling a hi fi store.   The last few components I bought for my study where I listen to music critically I bought from the tip shop.  I'm having more fun with the gear now than I ever did despite the modest setup I have specifically designed for near-field listening while working.  I have more fun with this gear than I ever did in the 1990s buying new stuff.

 

(edit:  sorry for taking this on a bit of a tangent from the original essay, I never really had the financial resources to get into esoteric hi fi although I am fascinated by those people who are)

Edited September 12, 2020 by Old Man Rubber

[Tony Martello]

Great essay and good points.

I've been around music systems since 1981, I've owned plenty of gear, good and bad and had my eyes opened plenty of times.

My only 'strong' understandings are 'you can't change physics' and 'people prefer what is applicable'.

 

Just to add a little stoking to the fire I'd like to share my views regarding the stand mounts vs floor standers debate. I've listened to so many high end speakers and I'd like to declare that a two way speaker cannot compete with a similar grade three way speaker. Yes, that means no book shelve speaker comes close to the equivalent 3way+ floor stander. Chalk and cheese.

In my opinion. 

 

[Tony Martello]

On 29/08/2020 at 7:23 PM, vivianbl said:

Enjoyed your essay and the responses, but when you refer to the challenges of buying “high end” I wondered what you exactly meant? What do others mean by that?

At what point does Hi fi become “high end”?

Very good point.

To add to this I've heard an amazing amp that some call a good anchor.

Subjective  

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

2 hours ago, Tony Martello said:

Very good point.

To add to this I've heard an amazing amp that some call a good anchor.

Subjective  

"Hi end" or esoteric hi fi - it's pretty easy to distinguish from common stuff although at times Denon / Sony / Pioneer etc had different lines of gear within their ranges that flirted with the concept.

 

This kind of thing is (to me at least) a pretty definitive piece of "high end" esoteric thing currently being marketed:

https://tivolihifi.com.au/products/mcintosh-mac7200-receiver

 

I've never heard it but if you couldn't get within a few % of the specifications from one of the big asian companies at 1/15th of the price I would be surprised.  You either buy it because you genuinely can hear the differences (I can't) or for those people who only buy the best and can afford it.

 

I am guessing that somebody else would look at the Mcintosh and be able to point to something far more expensive / exclusive etc.  I am somewhat surprised that $16,000RRP and what you are buying is an integrated receiver rather than a seperate pre-amp / power amplifiers / tuner like in the old days but it's been a long time since I looked at hi-fi gear seriously.

 

[Tony Martello]

Hey old man.

Hifi is such a funny game. The problem with getting addicted to clarity and trying to buy perfection is that most recordings (of great songs) are not super high quality.  I also think some personalities would have benefitted greatly in life by never hearing a great recording on a high end stereo. Hifi equipment can be like heroin to some.

Most of us get into hifi because we love music, but that can get lost when you start listening to your stereo rather than the song.

I reckon you don't have to spend over $6000 to achieve an amazing, beautiful and powerful sound that should fulfil any music lover (that's not buying all new).

Trial and error is the most costly obstacle in the pursuit to satisfy your taste, and thats why this post was created.

I nailed it when I up graded recently with non matching equipment but I was lucky (I bought second hand). I could easily have mucked it up and joined the money cannon society. 

I think the key to it is to research and buy a great set of speakers and build it from there.

Oh, and while I'm at it never pay too much for interconnects and speaker wire, blind tests consistently show no one can tell the difference between a $100 cable and a $1000+ cable (unless they have a different gauge but thats got nothing to do with money, thats resistance).

I believe your cables shouldn't cost more than a few hundred, and even that price is mostly aesthetic. Just make sure they are well shielded with matching gauge to your equipment.        

Edited September 13, 2020 by Tony Martello

[doogie44]

Agreed, it's all about the music...unless you somehow come to believe that it isn't!

[Wimbo]

On 29/07/2020 at 9:48 PM, Tassie Devil said:

LOL.  I was one of the first subscribers to this magazine back in the days we worshipped founder Harry Pearson.  At one stage Harry invited me to listen to his gear in NY but later withdrew it as he was having personal problems, the details of which I'll not relate here.  And the audio industry benefited from me as a result of many of his glowing reviews.  The "good old days:"?

Reading HP's reviews in bed on a cold winter's night have been a highlight of my life. Back then it was the mystery of High End Audio. Something you always lusted after.

 

[Wimbo]

10 hours ago, Old Man Rubber said:

I may be not remembering the 1990s properly but my recollection was that the retailers stopped offering these kinds of services, except to those who were buying esoteric and really expensive gear.  For those of us who stuck to the mid-range (for me, that was NAD or similar) there was no point going to a retailer once this kind of service stopped.  There used to be a pile of good hi-fi retailers around George St in the CBD in Sydney who knew the gear and would be patient about you auditioning things but then around the time DVD appeared it all went out the window.  When DVD made home theatre a more widespread phenomenon than Laserdisc, the retail model based around personalised service stopped working.

The Internet canned those guys mate.

10 hours ago, Old Man Rubber said:

At this time I stopped buying that mid-range gear for another reason:  a good Sony CD or DVD player was just more reliable than a NAD.  A Sony or Yamaha amp or receiver could be relied upon to deliver the watts in a reliable fashion than the NAD gear I had.  Whenever a component stopped working in my setup (which was a lot, every NAD piece I had from 1989-1995 all lost channels, popped components or were filled with dry solder joints).  I just replaced it with something mainstream and didn't really feel like I lost anything in sound quality.  When the house was full of kids you couldn't hear any difference anyway.

Sold the lot and don't agree. There was a time in the mid 90's (after the "PE" based gear that NAD was crap. 705, 502 etc) but the later gear, c540,306 etc was very good. As well as the earlier gear. For $399, the NAD 5420 was up there and better then some Meridians.