An Essay on The Challenges of Buying Hi-end Items

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

I have no doubt NAD got better or they wouldn't still be in business, but for me the sound quality of something that is always at your tech getting soldered was basically nil.  Their value proposition was "sounds like what you really want to buy but can't justify" but when its only coming out one channel, well, time to move on if you enjoy music rather than staring at a badge.

[bryansamui]

Some lucky audiophiles are fortunate to have numerous components in their "Rotation" which can cure Upgradeitis. They don't have to endure the 'Same Audio Meal' every day. 

For the rest of us,.. Unless you can audition every piece of kit on the market, you can be forever chasing your tail. 

Every piece brings something different to the table at the expense of something else (eg Analytical /Musical balance) No piece does it all and all components irrespective of price have Caveats and Attributes.. If we can be accepting of this, then the potential to satisfy is a lot closer than we think. 

 

[tripitaka]

5 hours ago, Tony Martello said:

Hey old man.

Hifi is such a funny game. The problem with getting addicted to clarity and trying to buy perfection is that most recordings (of great songs) are not super high quality.  I also think some personalities would have benefitted greatly in life by never hearing a great recording on a high end stereo. Hifi equipment can be like heroin to some.

Most of us get into hifi because we love music, but that can get lost when you start listening to your stereo rather than the song.

I reckon you don't have to spend over $6000 to achieve an amazing, beautiful and powerful sound that should fulfil any music lover (that's not buying all new).

Trial and error is the most costly obstacle in the pursuit to satisfy your taste, and thats why this post was created.

I nailed it when I up graded recently with non matching equipment but I was lucky (I bought second hand). I could easily have mucked it up and joined the money cannon society. 

I think the key to it is to research and buy a great set of speakers and build it from there.

Oh, and while I'm at it never pay too much for interconnects and speaker wire, blind tests consistently show no one can tell the difference between a $100 cable and a $1000+ cable (unless they have a different gauge but thats got nothing to do with money, thats resistance).

I believe your cables shouldn't cost more than a few hundred, and even that price is mostly aesthetic. Just make sure they are well shielded with matching gauge to your equipment.        

Agree with the above, but would only question the $6k complete system hypothesis... you'd need to stumble across some pretty good bargains and be unbelievably lucky in component synergies for that IMO

 

[Bisguittin]

2 hours ago, bryansamui said:

Some lucky audiophiles are fortunate to have numerous components in their "Rotation" which can cure Upgradeitis. They don't have to endure the 'Same Audio Meal' every day. 

For the rest of us,.. Unless you can audition every piece of kit on the market, you can be forever chasing your tail. 

Every piece brings something different to the table at the expense of something else (eg Analytical /Musical balance) No piece does it all and all components irrespective of price have Caveats and Attributes.. If we can be accepting of this, then the potential to satisfy is a lot closer than we think. 

 

Sensational analysis Bryan! One of the best comments I've read anywhere.

[bryansamui]

7 hours ago, Bisguittin said:

Sensational analysis Bryan! One of the best comments I've read anywhere.

Thanks Bisguittin... It's funny you know.. 10 mins after posting i saw a Steve Guttenberg -( Audiophiliac Daily Show) He said his most exciting, adrenalin filled, and enjoyable Stereo Listening sessions was when he got his first Stereo in the 70's. Cheap ($150), he 'just couldn't wait' to get home from school to hear the power of Led Zeppelin coming through those speakers.... Just awesome.. He of course has had incredibly expensive components through his hands being a reviewer but has never reached those teenage enjoyment levels since.. He personally enjoys 'Synergised Systems' over purely expensive and commented that the Wealthy with their ridiculously expensive Hifi don't necessarily enjoy it anymore than anyone else. 

This somewhat comes down to why we enjoy this hobby. Is it the gear mainly? or the music?... Of course it's both, but in varying percentages for us and no reason is more valid than the other. Those who's listening balance gravitates towards Fine Electronics and Great Audio Engineers is an expensive road.. Those whos balance gravitates to Music 1st & foremost over the gear will find "The hairs on the back of your neck will stand up" on a modest system as they did for Steve Guttenberg on his $150 Stereo many years ago. 

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

12 hours ago, Wimbo said:

The Internet canned those guys mate.

Sold the lot and don't agree. There was a time in the mid 90's (after the "PE" based gear that NAD was crap. 705, 502 etc) but the later gear, c540,306 etc was very good. As well as the earlier gear. For $399, the NAD 5420 was up there and better then some Meridians.

Ah, I owned a NAD 5420 bought from a hi-fi store in Phillip in the ACT at the same time as my brother-in-law bought an incredibly nasty looking CDC from Brashs back then because it was the cheapest CD player on the market.  We might have both been philistines but they were basically indistinguishable through the same amp/speakers.  

 

funny enough that CDC is *still working* and the NAD went to landfill long ago after three repairs (all dry solder joints and finally the laser died).    If somebody told me they were looking at Ebay for a period correct CD player, I'd pass over a dozen NADs to get one CDC.  

[Wimbo]

17 hours ago, Old Man Rubber said:

Ah, I owned a NAD 5420 bought from a hi-fi store in Phillip in the ACT at the same time as my brother-in-law bought an incredibly nasty looking CDC from Brashs back then because it was the cheapest CD player on the market.  We might have both been philistines but they were basically indistinguishable through the same amp/speakers.  

 

funny enough that CDC is *still working* and the NAD went to landfill long ago after three repairs (all dry solder joints and finally the laser died).    If somebody told me they were looking at Ebay for a period correct CD player, I'd pass over a dozen NADs to get one CDC.  

The CDC must of been a fantastically wonderful sounding player.Only probs with the 5420 and 5425 was that a ballast resistor would burn out the display light. I had over 50 people confirm how good the 5420 was personally. Talking to the wrong bloke here. Never mind, keep your ideas of NAD's bad quality. No water off my back.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Wimbo

[TerryO]

On 13/09/2020 at 10:23 PM, tripitaka said:

Agree with the above, but would only question the $6k complete system hypothesis... you'd need to stumble across some pretty good bargains and be unbelievably lucky in component synergies for that IMO

 

A $6k system can sound great but only if you have a exceptional room, a great sounding room can make most any system sound much better than it otherwise would. 

Never ceases to amaze me how many people keep swapping expensive gear trying to achieve that ultimate sound with out spending a dollar on room treatment. The best bang for dollar money I ever spent on my system was to get my listening room professionally treated.
Once that was done then it was possible to seriously then start trying to find true synergy between components and the sound delivery I was wanting to achieve.

 

cheers,

Terry

Edited September 17, 2020 by TerryO

[MattyW]

On 01/08/2020 at 3:34 PM, dr_carl said:

When it comes down to it hi fi are just toys. If someone else wants to play with your toy you can sell it. I like having new audio toys and the thought that there are others who want to play too, so if I  don't get too expensive then it won't go pear shaped. Bad outcome is when you get stuck with something you paid a lot for, but the market now abhors, and you want to move it on but can't.  

Half of that paragraph sounded a bit naughty to me.

 

In all seriousness though,  selling gear is as simple as lowering your price until it sells. Brisbane being a much smaller market for quality audio gear has made me all too aware of that with items as people have to factor in post/shipping. Likewise if I find something I like on that classifieds it's likely going to be in Vic, NSW or SA.

 

There's a few of us have the sickness here in Brisbane,  though far fewer than the colder, wetter states.

 

On 13/09/2020 at 8:55 PM, bryansamui said:

Some lucky audiophiles are fortunate to have numerous components in their "Rotation" which can cure Upgradeitis. They don't have to endure the 'Same Audio Meal' every day. 

For the rest of us,.. Unless you can audition every piece of kit on the market, you can be forever chasing your tail. 

Every piece brings something different to the table at the expense of something else (eg Analytical /Musical balance) No piece does it all and all components irrespective of price have Caveats and Attributes.. If we can be accepting of this, then the potential to satisfy is a lot closer than we think. 

 

Not components in rotation. Multiple systems which sound somewhat different to each other. All the best gear goes into the main, the second system comes scarily close to the first while being about 10% of the overall expense both in money and time. Office and gym systems are pretty good too. Often times when the main system is upgraded I'll try the component in the second system. It often doesn't sound good in that system..... Synergy you know. Due to the cost of the component I can't justify moving it to one of the other two systems and sell it. I think I'm done upgrading the main system though.

 

To be fair, the second system is 100% Chi-Fi and will remain so. Then again..... That Chi-Fi gear tends to get fully recapped and tweaked to sound how I like it. Generally means it keeps the core sound of the circuit but becomes more natural sounding, more nuanced. You have to balance detail and insight with naturalness or the system ends up too critical sounding.

 

 

Really though, I think I got hooked with stereo gear due to dad's big 1980's era stereo which was based around a Denon PMA777 and B&W DM16 speakers. Then when I moved from home I acquired the old amp and I bought a pair of first gen ex-demo Paradigm Monitor-5's which was my system paired with a DVD player for many years. Eventually I moved on to a cheapie Lenoxx 5.1 AVR, Steinman Audio Labs THR2 fronts and rears and Dream Audio sub which I lived with for a long time. It was good for movies and loud parties.

 

Then maybe 10 years ago I moved to a Denon AVR..... No real improvement, then changed that for a Yaqin MC10T, acquired dads old DM16 speakers, and turntable, Yaqin phono, separate DAC and the upgrade cycle began in earnest. I'm only just now starting to sell off all the gear I've built up which I haven't given away to mates. I hope to get rid of the gym system eventually also. It just doesn't get used as we never use the gym since our daughter came along. Still plenty of unused gear to get rid of though.

Edited September 17, 2020 by MattyW

[tripitaka]

1 hour ago, MattyW said:

All the best gear goes into the main, the second system comes scarily close to the first while being about 10% of the overall expense both in money and time. Office and gym systems are pretty good too. Often times when the main system is upgraded I'll try the component in the second system. It often doesn't sound good in that system..... Synergy you know. Due to the cost of the component I can't justify moving it to one of the other two systems and sell it. I think I'm done upgrading the main system though.

 

If it's not too rude of me to ask, might you give an indication (ballpark) for the cost for your ChiFi system? Cheers

[MattyW]

32 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

If it's not too rude of me to ask, might you give an indication (ballpark) for the cost for your ChiFi system? Cheers

No, not rude at all 

 

I guess somewhere between $5 and $6k...... Most of the cost is in the speakers (fully crossover rebuilt by @muon*), followed by the DAC, interconnects and speaker cables are more than the little Pass Amp Camp Amp copy. I didn't include cost of my Denon DN-500BD Mk2 BlueRay player or Media PC in that though. I guess those would add $800 to $900 to the cost. I tend to buy most things new as its difficult to find anything I particularly want used around Brisbane.

 

The rebuilt Oatlon W2-1000F speakers get along very well with the little 5WPC Pass ACA copy, and the NOS TDA1540D DAC is an absolute gem. A great find.

 

For fair comparison.... This system does not have a vinyl chain so only half of my main system to start with. Just CD and Roon.

 

I guess used the system would be worth about 1/3 of that? There's still a stigma with Chinese gear. I find it a great base to start from if willing to recap and tweak the parts. I do what I can myself as I'm still learning and have had a lot of work from @muon* over the years. Ians a great guy 

Edited September 17, 2020 by MattyW