:) Go Away (: Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I have both AppleTV4K and new Nvidia Shield TV. For ease of use, I like AppleTV4K but Nvidia's AI upscaling and audio performance is really good and should be considered as well. I am an Anthem Fan, so I will recommend Anthem AVRs to start with as they all do pre-outs and some with up to 11 channels allowing you to use your power amps. Also, their ARC (Anthem Room Correction) is top notch. That way, you can have all your speakers powered and once the amps are settled, you can hunt for a quality processors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, :) Go Away (: said: Nvidia Shield TV Ooooooh.... Never knew they existed, and they look sweet, and it would keep me from the Apple ecosystem, which is nice. The LG CX tv that I purchased has some fancy AI upscaling already (looks fantastic streaming straight from their built in apps), but this Shield thing might be the go. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DrSK Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, acg said: Do you mean foregoing a centre channel installation? Going 4.0? This had crossed my mind considering that the speakers sit a long way out into the room and the TV is back on the wall. If this is what you mean I don't know what to look for in a processor that can do this. I'm running 4.0 and very happy. For a while I used to amuse myself by having a speaker in the centre that blew people's minds how good it was, and got them to take a look so they would find it wasn't wired in, and I got to enjoy the look of confusion on their face. Edited July 21, 2020 by DrSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 5 hours ago, acg said: these speakers image in mono, loads of depth anyway, width is limited of course. I have no doubt that they will works as intended sans centre channel...or at least I hope my confidence is confirmed. The test is, that with the proper content, that the sound, sound like it is coming from a tiny spot in the middle of the speakers. No width at all.... and that this happens from all(many) seats. 5 hours ago, acg said: horns/ribbons but on a much smaller scale than the fronts. No. I would recommend: Sealed box... A waveguide/horn as wide as the box, with a 1" compression driver A woofer that is as wide as the box Cut off at 80Hz (using the bass managemen in your processor) However wide you want to make them. "Easy" to DIY... or... can be purchased. https://www.storedj.com.au/behringer-truth-b2031a-active-8-studio-monitors-pair https://www.storedj.com.au/jbl-lsr308p-mkii-8-powered-studio-monitors-pair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, acg said: Ooooooh.... Choose your poison. The ATV4k is very very good.... and the "usability superior" comment is IMO an understatement. I would at least try before you buy, and test out your apps, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 13 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: I would recommend: Sealed box... A waveguide/horn as wide as the box, with a 1" compression driver A woofer that is as wide as the box Cut off at 80Hz (using the bass managemen in your processor) However wide you want to make them. "Easy" to DIY... or... can be purchased. https://www.storedj.com.au/behringer-truth-b2031a-active-8-studio-monitors-pair https://www.storedj.com.au/jbl-lsr308p-mkii-8-powered-studio-monitors-pair Thanks Dave. Am a little worried about using small woofers and dome tweeters/waveguide as a compatibility problem with the dynamics with the front horns. Although not impossible, the idea of running power + 12v trigger + signal wiring is daunting in my room and would be much easier with passives, but then I would have to organise amplifiers, which is probably ok. Higher up in the JBL universe, and passive, with compression tweeters and front ports are an 8"... https://www.belfieldmusic.com.au/products/jbl-lsr708i-master-reference-monitor-8-inch or the 5"... https://www.belfieldmusic.com.au/products/jbl-lsr705i-master-reference-monitor-5-inch ...along with some Purifi/Ncore Class D amps. I've heard a lot of bookshelf speakers and probably my most preferred have been the Lenehan ML1 (ML2 are better but are more standmount than bookshelf . There was a crossover time when the ML1 and the horns were both in my room and it was plainly obvious how compromised small speakers, even really good ones like ML1's, sound primarily in terms of mid and upper bass (no small speaker really does low bass) and quite a long way into the midrange. The horns slaughter them in terms of resolution and freedom and dynamics. I am probably overthinking things here because I doubt there will be a lot of multichannel music in my listening future, and the live concert discs will ??probably?? be stereo mixes only, so why get too worried about how compatible the surrounds are with the mains? The dispersion characteristics of the surround is much more important. Perhaps if I had an idea of how much information actually comes from those rear speakers when watching in surround I could make a value judgement on buying $1k surrounds or spending $6k on them. Plus, JBL's only seem to come in black, and I would prefer white, and I have no time to diy a pair of speakers fit for purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, acg said: Am a little worried about using small woofers and dome tweeters/waveguide as a compatibility problem with the dynamics with the front horns. Although not impossible, the idea of running power + 12v trigger + signal wiring is daunting in my room and would be much easier with passives, but then I would have to organise amplifiers, which is probably ok. I've experienced krix top end horns up front all three of them pummelling you....partnered with passive horn surrounds from their range below, https://www.krix.com.au/surround-cinema/ can see a typical krix church with the horn front end and what have used for surrounds in this case...they list the speakers used for your reference https://www.krix.com.au/the-church-of-sound-home-cinema/ in which case have used the krix megaphonix (which are aimed for non commercial application) https://www.krix.com.au/megaphonix/ these setups sound pretty awesome if experienced .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 This may be of interest acg ; Floyd E Tooles theater https://www.soundandvision.com/content/advice-audio-insider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 5 hours ago, acg said: Higher up in the JBL universe, and passive, with compression tweeters and front ports are an 8"... ...along with some Purifi/Ncore Class D amps. 5 hours ago, acg said: ML1 and the horns were both in my room and it was plainly obvious how compromised small speakers, even really good ones like ML1's, sound primarily in terms of mid and upper bass (no small speaker really does low bass) and quite a long way into the midrange. Use a decent sized HE woofer (eg. 12") and cut it off at 80Hz. 5 hours ago, acg said: I am probably overthinking things here because I doubt there will be a lot of multichannel music in my listening future You can upmix stereo to surroud 5 hours ago, acg said: Plus, JBL's only seem to come in black, and I would prefer white, and I have no time to diy a pair of speakers fit for purpose. Active, white. https://www.buchardtaudio.com/products/a500-white The tweeter is going to be just as good as the cd in those JBLs. From what you are saying though, I'd be looking for larger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: Active, white. https://www.buchardtaudio.com/products/a500-white The tweeter is going to be just as good as the cd in those JBLs. From what you are saying though, I'd be looking for larger. Those A500's look really nice Dave. 2 x 6" woofers (roughly single 8" equivalent), sealed, the nice room correction DSP, especially for boundary interactions, and given what they are the price seems reasonable too. If they did not work out as surrounds I'd put them on stands downstairs in the lounge room. But they are small with a lot of low frequency extension so as I said in another thread recently they are "squeezing a lot more juice from a smaller orange". Plus the rear woofer would be placed very close to the wall and I am not sure it wouldn't create more issues than the DSP could solve in those circumstances. 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: Use a decent sized HE woofer (eg. 12") and cut it off at 80Hz. I reckon we would be getting into 3 way territory with a 12" woofer and trying to match it to a waveguide/horn. Maybe. Or a 12" - 15" waveguide. Some of the vintage coaxials would be useful, but they are hardly constant directivity. I have a pair of Tannoy Red 10" coaxials here: if limited to 80Hz the box size would probably be manageable...pretty low tech compared to the stuff we've been talking about. 2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: You can upmix stereo to surroud That would be new to me, but the more I look into this the harder I think it is going to be to find surrounds that match my horns without extending my listening room to free up more space for bigger speakers. And then I am still wondering if I really need to perfectly match the horns or if getting as close as I can within the size constraints is the best I can do. Realistically, I have not a lot of room to fit the surrounds, and so far I have been unable to find a decent large driver constant directivity speaker and I am not even sure I could fit them in the room. The Revel M105 or M106 look nice, but unfortunatly have a rear port. Apparently that port can be stuffed with a foam plug to enable installations closer to the wall or in corners, which may not be a big issue if they are being cutoff at 80Hz or so anyway. Not actually sure if that would work. They are passive, seem to be well regarded (resale value) and come in white (yay). Perhaps not on the same level as the A500's above, but decent. 2 hours ago, cwt said: This may be of interest acg ; Floyd E Tooles theater https://www.soundandvision.com/content/advice-audio-insider Had a look at this, thankyou. Interesting the comment about the surrounds being at ear level so as to not be hearing "the voice of god". There is no way I can get my surrounds to ear level...just can't...tweeter circa 1.7m above floor, ears only 1.2m. @betty boop, those Krix cinema speakers look the bomb for wall mounting. I would need to call someone to about pricing and more specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 53 minutes ago, acg said: Had a look at this, thankyou. Interesting the comment about the surrounds being at ear level so as to not be hearing "the voice of god". There is no way I can get my surrounds to ear level...just can't...tweeter circa 1.7m above floor, ears only 1.2m. believe it or not while this is a very old article... it is spot on...re voice of god..... (ps i wont talk about centres as he talks about that too ! ) it has even more relevance these days as bed surrounds still serve their purpose but we have added the height dimension with 3D audio... and auro3d which is mostly specific to music runs a "voice of god" VOG speaker which is fantastic for those choral pieces in churches picking up all that reverb from up there and such I run a 7.1.5 setup myself with a "voice of god" hehe re ear level.... we have some lee way with ear level... as always as much as 600mm above will still work fine, its not high enough for "voice of god"...... as long as if ever adding in or on ceiling height speakers it still leaves enough height differential to discern and provide the height perspective 53 minutes ago, acg said: @betty boop, those Krix cinema speakers look the bomb for wall mounting. I would need to call someone to about pricing and more specs. @Krix Loudspeakers is a member here can just pm them those krix on walls are very discrete come in a few forms and have heard them doing their thing in both commercial and domestic settings over the years and doing it very well ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 27 minutes ago, acg said: But they are small with a lot of low frequency extension so as I said in another thread recently they are "squeezing a lot more juice from a smaller orange". But you are going to cut them off at 80Hz (60?) .... they'll be fine. 27 minutes ago, acg said: Plus the rear woofer would be placed very close to the wall and I am not sure it wouldn't create more issues than the DSP could solve in those circumstances. Yes, in that case it might not be the best choice if you want to mount them right onto the wall. 27 minutes ago, acg said: I reckon we would be getting into 3 way territory with a 12" woofer and trying to match it to a waveguide/horn. A 12" woofer will match just great to a 12" horn, at around 1khz. You could also use a coaxial.... especialy if the speaker will be quite close to the listener. 27 minutes ago, acg said: I have a pair of Tannoy Red 10" coaxials here: if limited to 80Hz the box size would probably be manageable...pretty low tech compared to the stuff we've been talking about. They'd be great if they're in good condition (and the XOs). Because the have such low Fs, then the box can be pretty compact. 27 minutes ago, acg said: the more I look into this the harder I think it is going to be to find surrounds that match my horns The key thing will be that the FR of the horns and surrounds match...... and the surrounds are a well designed speaker. 27 minutes ago, acg said: The Revel M105 or M106 look nice Eh? These are even smaller/less dynamic than what weve been talking about so far. 27 minutes ago, acg said: , but unfortunatly have a rear port. ... but if you're cutting them off at 80Hz... then nothing much is going to be coming out of the port. Any change in the FR caused by the wall loading the port.... will all be taken care of in the AV processor (crossing over your surrounds to your subwoofers, ie your L+R) 27 minutes ago, acg said: Apparently that port can be stuffed with a foam plug ... or juts do that.... either way will work fine. 27 minutes ago, acg said: tweeter circa 1.7m above floor, ears only 1.2m. That's not toooo bad. 27 minutes ago, acg said: Krix cinema speakers Yep (they are big tho) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, betty boop said: @Krix Loudspeakers is a member here can just pm them those krix on walls are very discrete come in a few forms and have heard them doing their thing in both commercial and domestic settings over the years and doing it very well ! Finally, I have had some time to have a look through the Krix website. I've gotta say that stuff really does look fit for purpose. A bit of yesterday was spent agonising over whether or not I should just get some small hifi two ways and be done with it, but after talking through this with you guys it is plainly obvious to me that I need larger drivers to maintain the 'big speaker' feel of my fronts. To my mind, and with my system, the Krix two way surrounds tick the following boxes: Paper cone woofers. No super strength aluminium or berilium or adamantium cones, just simple paper like the rest of the woofers in my system. Designed for in wall or on-wall mounting. No dinky little hifi thing hanging from a corner or a wall plate. Can be bigger but less obtrusive. Baffle angles for higher mounting...I like it and will probably need it. Big woofers and big waveguides for bigger dynamics to better suit my fronts. Up to dual 15" woofers with compression driver waveguide. High sensitivity - approaching 100dB/w/m. I've not seen any impedance plots, but I may have some freedom with amplifier choice (valve surrounds anybody?). At least low power Class A (which I have already built) Australian made? Looks like it...not specified on the website. Contenders are, from largest to smallest: KX-1155 - dual 15" woofer. 35mm compression driver. 101dB/w/m. Available with 15deg baffle. 1165mm x 520mm x (205-512mm). Nice, but not gonna fit. KX-1152 - 15" woofer. 35mm compression driver.100dB/w/m. Available with 15 deg baffle. 800mm x 518mm x (180-389mm). Might be able to fit this fella. KX-1870 / KX-1875 - 10" woofer. 1" tweeter. 97dB/w/m. Available with 15deg baffle, flat or low profile. 560mm x 390mm x (176-321mm/Flat 162mm) or 560mm x 570mm x (96-241mm). No compression driver, but easier to fit. Megaphonix - 10" woofer. 1" tweeter. 97dB/w/m. Available with 15 deg baffle, flat or in-wall. 560mm x 390mm x (171-321mm). Same as (3) above. Megaphonix Flat - 10" woofer. 1" tweeter. 97dB/w/m. Available with 15 deg baffle, flat or in-wall. 885mm x 390mm x 162mm). Same as (3) and (4) above. Options 3 - 5 seems to be the same basic speaker wrapped in a number of different cabinets to suit specific situations. In terms of the two channel (stereo) system which is based around low excursion and large cone areas (16 x 10" paper woofers for subs, perhaps 4 x 15" paper woofers for midbass when final room tuning is done, 2 pairs of front loaded 100Hz/250Hz/400Hz horns plus ribbon tweeters) a single 10" woofer in each surround is perhaps not quite there for me, but is a lot better suited than the stuff I have been looking at previously. Then there are the 15" woofers in Options 1 & 2. On the face of things these seem to be the most suitable options, but I cannot recall hearing this sort of two way speaker before and have thoughts that the lower mids, say 1kHz through to the 1.6kHz crossover may be better served by the smaller 10" woofer. No speaker is perfect, but do 15" woofers go ok up to 1.6kHz? I would love other peoples insight and experience here. @Krix Loudspeakers, are you able to offer any insight? Edited July 22, 2020 by acg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 2 hours ago, acg said: Finally, I have had some time to have a look through the Krix website. I've gotta say that stuff really does look fit for purpose. I thought you said no dome tweeters ?!?! 2 hours ago, acg said: it is plainly obvious to me that I need larger drivers to maintain the 'big speaker' feel of my fronts. I don't really agree. Don't go "small" .... but anything 8" and up would be fine. Especially if it is a driver that isn't designed to reach down to low bass (like in a typical two way) .... and is more of a HE midbass. 2 hours ago, acg said: To my mind, and with my system, the Krix two way surrounds tick the following boxes: Yes. 2 hours ago, acg said: High sensitivity - approaching 100dB/w/m. I've not seen any impedance plots, but I may have some freedom with amplifier choice (valve surrounds anybody?). It will have significant impedance peaks due to the vented box..... You'll need to be careful not to clip a small amplifier.... especially one like you will be want to build, that won't have very good recovery. IMVHO, you would do well to drive them from the amplifier outputs in an AVR. 2 hours ago, acg said: Contenders are, from largest to smallest: Go the 10s. You are going to bass manage them... so the bigger ones will just be harder to place (and that will be the biggest determinant of SQ). Similar to how with your horns, their placement, and the shape/size of the horns, and the EQ applied.... are the biggest factors in their performance (with a few caveats like being loaded with drivers that fit the horn properly), not things like "fancy" amps or drivers. 2 hours ago, acg said: Iwould love other peoples insight and experience here The 15" woofer options are designed for getting reference level to people 10+m away. They need that much area and power handling to do that. You are putting them 2m or less from your ears, and going to bass manage them. You want somthing you can place well, with tight C2C driver spacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 37 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: I thought you said no dome tweeters ?!?! Compression drivers on the 15" models...hehe. 37 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: It will have significant impedance peaks due to the vented box..... You'll need to be careful not to clip a small amplifier.... especially one like you will be want to build, that won't have very good recovery. IMVHO, you would do well to drive them from the amplifier outputs in an AVR. A 17W low output impedance (0.19r) single ended triode would possibly work ok, depending on where the impendance peaks are exactly in relation to the 80Hz cutoff, but I was really thinking about a solid state 25W Class A push pull amp that is here. It is built but I am yet to use it. Wish the surrounds were sealed for my application, and I could possibly experiment with port stuffing to reduce the impedance peaks a little and see where that gets me, but these Krix units fit just about every other requirements apart from being white (I can live with that one though). 41 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: IMVHO, you would do well to drive them from the amplifier outputs in an AVR. I've been convinced to go with a processor rather than AVR. The Anthem AVM60 is my prefered product at this stage, and I will first look for a used unit to buy. Would be no trouble to just get a local Purifi or Ncore Class D if I had to, but I reckon 25W may be enough for 97dB surrounds in my situation....it should give 109dB peaks. 47 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Go the 10s. I see your point about localisation with the 15" drivers, especially crossed that high and sitting so close, and also why you thought the coaxial idea with the old Tannoy Red 10" had some merit, but I think the Krix solutions will be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, acg said: A 17W low output impedance (0.19r) single ended triode would possibly work ok, depending on where the impendance peaks are exactly in relation to the 80Hz cutoff Yeah, you don't want to clip it. 6 minutes ago, acg said: Wish the surrounds were sealed for my application, and I could possibly experiment with port stuffing to reduce the impedance peaks a little and see where that gets me You could... any issuse in the FR, can be corrected in the processor. (eg. Dirac Live) 6 minutes ago, acg said: AVM60 I don't know what the bass management or correction is like on that. 6 minutes ago, acg said: I think the Krix solutions will be better. I would recommend as large of a waveuide as you can fit with good placement.... so the Krix cinema gets a tick there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: I don't know what the bass management or correction is like on that. Neither do I, but Dirac Live and ARC often seem to be mentioned as the best in the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 42 minutes ago, acg said: Neither do I, but Dirac Live and ARC often seem to be mentioned as the best in the business. I have used both and and you cannot go wrong with either. See Room Correction Software (old but relevant article) for both movies and music. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, acg said: Neither do I, but Dirac Live and ARC often seem to be mentioned as the best in the business. I trully believe its a much of muchness.... I wouldn't just buy a unit purely for EQ scheme... you would have seen that krix church with its awesome setup with a marantz in the fold.... keep options open... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krix Loudspeakers Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Hi @acg, I may need a day to catch up on the thread and can then figure out the best person to discuss your requirements. A phone call may be easier, so I'll send through a PM tomorrow and we can go from there. Cheers, Michael 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) @Krix LoudspeakersNo worries Michael. I just snapped a few pictures (sorry about the light - it is raining) to get you up to speed because I would assume I am not your target audience for these speakers. Nearly completed fronts and with hastily put up screen... North-east corner... I reckon the Megaphonix 10" will fit in that corner between the ceiling corner and the record rack even with the lid open. If I went for the 15" units it would have to mount further out toward the light switch so that I could still get to my vinyl. North-west corner... Similar but has my office desk to worry about. The desk could be moved a little away from the windows to accommodate a 10" corner mounting, or the 15" would have to be installed between and above the monitors. Also notice the fascia above the windows and the ceiling...I reckon a couple of the Megaphonix Centre's might fit up there to perhaps go 7.1 one day. Talk tomorrow perhaps. Anthony Edited July 23, 2020 by acg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 hours ago, acg said: a few pictures You should probably explain that that's only half the lower horn channel (the mouths not yet attached). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 Yes, correct, the front half of the big lower horns are yet to be turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 Had our little get together last night to listen/watch Nick Caves "Idiot Prayer" live stream. What a nice reversion to having to sit down for the show at a particular time or you miss out...that's something my kids will never really know with streaming and on-demand shows. But the four of us gathering in the music room, the beautiful tv screen, the giant speakers, the alcohol and the friendship coming together over a shared admiration of Nick Caves brilliance was the best night-in I've had this year. The show was wonderful, the mood fantastic, the sound epic, the performance astounding. When it finished all I wanted to do was close the trapdoor and listen to Nick Cave records for the rest of the night, and had it been a Friday or Saturday night, perhaps I would have. The music was up loud, I mean really loud, concert levels, and it was pristine and clear and nobody, not even my wife, hinted at any annoyance (my ears are ringing a little this morning). My mate's wife made comments about how great the sound was early on in the performance and how the sound engineers need congratulating. We tried (unsuccessfully I think) to convince her that, yes, they had done a great job, but also that the great sound she was hearing were the 2.4m tall horn speakers taking up half the room in which we were all sitting. Did anyone else catch the show? If there is anything good to possibly come from this pandemic I hope that it is more of this kind of show. I was beautiful to look at (although my eyes were closed much of the time), a delight to listen to, and another way to use rooms such as mine with friends. Hopefully it will be available to buy later on...which reminds me that I should look for the Roger Waters and Bruce Springsteen shows that I watched in the cinema earlier this year...they were really enjoyable too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetherock Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 IMO - you can try a AVR if you're buying new, and a processor is cheaper 2nd hand - but bear in mind the cost of cables and the risk of interference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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